Blow up with martyr complex mum

[Mamaka]

Lots of history with my mum from when we were growing up. Dad was physically abusive and mum turned a blind eye. I've grown up to see her unfortunately as weak and a bit of a martyr. She gets her self esteem from looking after everyone else but herself, in fact it seems she likes to run herself down a bit so everyone will tell her how hard she works and how strong a person she is. You get the picture, yes I know how bitter I sound.

She looks after my 2 dc 2 days a week, it will go down to 1 dc 2 days a week as my eldest has just gone to school. I've pulled her up before on her lack of boundaries with them and also for undermining me (talking over me when I arrive and am sorting them out, telling them to get ready etc) she improves for a bit then goes back to how she was. I can't afford to pay for childcare, it wouldn't be worth me working and I also want to facilitate the dc's relationship with her.

Today she was changing my very tired 2 year old's nappy and he was kicking her arms so she couldn't do it. I asked her to let me take over and she said no she was fine. She then continued to struggle and get kicked. I said again, let me do it he's tired, she said in a snippy voice no I'll do it and carried on, holding my son's leg quite roughly, so I got up and grabbed the nappy and sort of barged her out the way. She tripped over a box of books on the floor but didn't fall and didn't hurt herself, she just stumbled and then huffed oh for goodness sake and went to pick up my dd, who really didn't need to be picked up. After I'd put them in the car I asked her if she would have ignored any other parent asking her to let them do their kid's nappy. She didn't answer but sort of blustered about saying things like I was only trying to help and you're overreacting. I got angry and shouted at her that she was always undermining me and disrespecting me as a parent and she shut the door and told me to stop shouting. I think all she was thinking about was if the neighbours could hear. She said she would never have spoken to her mum like that at my age and I said she needed to stop trying to portray herself as "good" and better than everyone just because she never gets angry.

Eventually I left. I didn't feel bad immediately afterwards but now I feel awful, guilty, anxious and ungrateful. But then I think, she's got me right where she wants me hasn't she?! Indebted to her eternally and never able to pull her up on anything because she looks after my dc and is the mother Theresa of her village.

Sorry this got so long.
Did I overreact? If so, how can I deal with it better next time? If not, what do I do to stop it happening again?

[MadameCholetsDirtySecret]

When you have confrontation with your mother, you are still emotionally the 13 yo you. Your emotional bond with your mother hasn't developed from that point. Until you let go of your teenage self, your relationship won't progress. I can't relate to some of what you are saying and therapy helped me move on. I'm much more mature in my dealings with my DM now.

[Mamaka]

Many good points here to think about. So far I have made the following plan:

1. Apologise again for acting aggressively yesterday, without any justification or excuse.
   
2. Take steps to end the childcare by the end of this month.
   
3. Arrange a time to speak calmly with her, explaining why i still feel angry. I will make notes for this as usually when faced with her I turn into a gibbering wreck.
   
4. Listen to her.
   
5. Take steps to gradually lessen contact and ensure remaining contact is civil.
   
6. Find a good counsellor. Set boundaries.

[sentia]

You could try reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. It has a really helpful section in it about how one parent can enable the abuse of the other parent by doing nothing to stop it. I've found it really helpful in my own situation to understand why I'm angry at my mum as well as at my dad (although my history is nowhere near as serious as yours).

[Lottapianos]

That sounds like a good plan Mamaka. When you speak to your mother, be prepared for her not to be able to hear you. You will be confronting her with some very painful stuff and she may go on the defensive. This may not happen but be prepared. I think its a good step to apologise to her for yesterday, a genuine apology as well, rather than the non-apologies that you feel she has given you in the past.

Take care of yourself. You have some very painful stuff to sort through, and that can feel worse before it feels better. This is entirely normal. It will get better though. Life will get better for you

[Waltermittythesequel]

I think your plan of action is a good one.

You have to learn to seperate things and, tbh, even though you said fuck you to another poster, she had a point.

You do need to put paid childcare in place so that lines don't get blurred again.

[Mamaka]

The reason I said fuck you to that poster was because of saying I am like my dad. Immature, hurtful, bullying.

[Mamaka]

Thanks lotta. Thanks sentia for the book recommendation.

[Waltermittythesequel]

The reason I said fuck you to that poster was because of saying I am like my dad. Immature, hurtful, bullying.

Oh, sorry! I misunderstood.

[A11TheSmallTh1ngs]

Mamaka

Great plan.

What that poster said was not just bullying, it was disgusting and utterly indefensible. In her mind your pain at your abusive childhood is nothing. You were right to tell her to go fuck herself. She had zero point. I'm glad you are smart enough to see that.

You have every right to be angry with your mother. You have every right to take the steps you are taking. Ignore anyone who calls you names for setting boundaries. Good luck with everything.

[Mellifera]

OP, I also can't believe what some poster here wrote.

You were a victim of DV. Yes, so was your mum, but you were A CHILD, you had no choice.
You relied on her to protect you and she didn't.

I have had a very similar childhood and I have gone almost NC with my mum. She gave me the rage for years and we weren't able to talk about the past at all because she was sugarcoating and rewriting history.

I had to deal with the rage, because I turned it on myself. If a child feels anger and can't express it in a safe environment, it can do all sorts of harm.

I never felt that anger was safe as a child, because I was beaten up if I even so much as pulled an angry face. Never mind telling my dad he was a child beating bully and my mum that she was an enabler (she used to hit us too). Those were my feelings, they were valid.

It does damage. I have never been able to forgive my mum for what she did, and I'm ok with it. I don't have to. I have a separate life and my dc have nothing to do with her. She is still manipulative and the martyr. She still thinks we can have a normal relationship, she's in denial.
My sister is also almost NC with her, the same issues.

I have mentioned it before on MN and still believe that Schema Therapy is very useful for this sort of background. It means going back to your childhood to find out which core needs weren't met and what happened to you because of it. Behaviour patterns and coping strategies last until adulthood and are often not helpful at all. Schema Therapy is a commitment though and not a quick fix. It's hard work and not done in a few sessions. I've had about 45.

I'd say stopping the childminding is an important step. You don't have to go NC but take back some control.
Your feelings are valid. They stem from somewhere. Don't ignore them. Find a way to fund therapy, it sounds like a very important thing for you to do.
I found my anger rose considerably when I had my own dc. Showed me how wrong everything was when I grew up, yet she always insisted it was normal, every family was like that.

[DistanceCall]

Your mother was abusive to you and your siblings in that she alllowed your father to hurt you and she stood by and did nothing. I don't care that she was hurt too - she could do something about it, but refused to.

Of course you're very angry with her. You're entitled to your anger. And she does sound extremely passive aggressive.

You need to get alternative child care. For as long as she's taking care of your children for free you'll owe her, and she will be able to hold that over you (explicitly or not).

And I would recommend that you sought therapy for yourself. You endured something horrible as a child, and there is this unspoken thing between you and your mother.

[BarbarianMum]

^Amen to this. In our family it was emotional abuse. My mum finally left this year - age 71. I'm really happy for her. However, despite being close all our lives I had to go a whole period of allowing myself to be angry with her for failing to protect us when we were children. It was something I definately had to work through - before it I'd only ever been angry with my dad. It is really hard for abused women to leave but they do actually have that choice. Abused children have no choice at all.

[Mamaka]

Mellifera and barbarian and all others who have experienced dv -

[Mamaka]

I really am so grateful to everyone who has taken the time to try and give me advice, yes even the poster I fuck you'd. When you grow up with DV as a child, when your brain and emotions and senses and reactions are developing, it distorts everything that should be developing as normal and you spend the rest of your life questioning yourself because you can never really trust yourself because you know your mind has been twisted. That is my experience anyway. It takes an awful lot of painful and honest self questioning to achieve even the simplest things in relationships.

I came on here because I knew I was in the wrong but I also knew it wasn't that simple. I feel a lot clearer now.

[halofell]

Mamaka I feel for both you and your Mum. I've been the small child hearing fighting through the wall at night and knowing that when the morning came, odds on I could be in the firing line too. Like you I was also angry and didn't deal with it well all the time. One thing I did come to learn later on when I had learned to deal with my anger (that's the only thing that is really in your control) was how traumatised my Mum had actually been (she got diagnosed with PTSD a few years after leaving Dad) and also how when I thought she was doing nothing she was actually putting herself in the firing line a lot of the time - that being the best she could do at the time (she thought he would be a murder / suicide if she left and as he was a gun nut with guns in the house I've come to believe over time her fears were probably valid) Please note that I am not trying to judge you by my situation - just telling you about mine. Until I had dealt with my own anger, I couldn't see through the pain and just kept blaming her.

On a practical level, I understand how hard it is to change childcare quickly so can I suggest in the interim if you need to keep having the kids going there that you start paying her even a small amount of cash in return for the babysitting. It will help to change the power dynamic and is a surefire and calm rebuttal to any martyr stuff going on. It's harder to be a martyr if you are an employee. It will also give her a signal that you value what she does and I would suggest you sell it this way to her. (and I am sure that despite your anger, on some level you do value the time she is putting in with you DCs). eg Mum, I realise you may have felt I have been taking you for granted so here is what I am going to pay you from here on in, sorry it's not as much as I would like ... etc

On the anger issue, it will be a long slow process. It's not an event. Your Mum may be in a place that talking about her relationship with your Dad is just too hard as she is carrying too much pain and anger herself. She may never be able to talk to you about it honestly and that's ok. You can't control her actions / fix her but you can work on yourself and once you are in a calmer place, decide whether or not it's worth maintaining the relationship. Whether the potential good outweighs the bad. It might take some time distancing yourself from her. You might be able to do it while maintaining contact.

It's great you are looking into this and sharing the nappy clusterfuck. It's a great first step to finding some peace for yourself, your kids and most probably you Mum may get some collateral benefit as well. It's ok to be angry. It's a totally valid emotional reaction. I can see from your responses above you have realised it got out of hand and you regret that it ended how it did and you are working on fixing that so - well done you. That's how you break the abuse cycle (which you were indoctrinated with), recognising the behaviour and taking small steps to work out how to kill it good and dead.

I wish you all well

[Mellifera]

PS Mamaka I didn't make it clear in my post, my mum was not a victim of DV, he only hit us children and she let him/ignored it or took part. Certainly different to your situation. But disentangling your emotions from her history by looking at yours is a first step.

[nicknameinvalid123]

If you do speak to your mother about the link between the past and your current feelings I would suggest that you give her some warning-otherwise she may go on the defensive, partly out of fear that there is going to be a huge argument and a permanent falling out. It will be a difficult conversation for both of you. Try to explain to her in advance.

[Mamaka]

Some more advice needed please. My mum emailed me to ask what my issue was with her and this is how I've responded so far. Is it too harsh?

Yes there are unresolved issues from the past which I have only become aware of since having my own children, as well as recent ones.

I don't think discussing them together would bring us closer, mainly because I don't want that to happen. Unfortunately I am angry, and you accepting that is the first step to moving forward.

The main issue is that you neglected to protect me when I was a child, and that is a form of abuse in itself.

The issues following on from that are that I feel you are trying to be overly involved in my life, and you are now trying to be the parent that you weren't to me, to my children.

I suggest that for now you back off a bit and, if you want to, reflect on the past with some honesty and introspection.

[Waltermittythesequel]

It depends on what you really want, I think.

For example:if you genuinely want her to leave you alone then it doesn't matter how harsh it is, really, does it?

If you want her to try to explain/heal/move forward then a softer approach would probably achieve that more.

But you must remember that you are justified in your feelings and you have a right to them. You don't have to try and protect your mother from the truth of what you went through so be a little selfish and concentrate on the outcome that you want.

Just make sure it is what you really want, IYSWIM. You suggest that she reflects on the past but to what end?

Do you want her to come round after say, a week and apologise? Do you want radio silence until you decide to contact her? Do you want her to see someone before she sees your dc?

[Waltermittythesequel]

Also, this:

The issues following on from that are that I feel you are trying to be overly involved in my life, and you are now trying to be the parent that you weren't to me, to my children.

She is bound to argue since you've been using her for childcare so be prepared for that!

[Mamaka]

Very good points waltermitty.
I don't know what I want really. Some space, not to be contacted with pointless titbits of news every day and for her to continue a relationship with my dc but with less interference on her side. I think..

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Your mother was not a good parent (and that is an understatement) to you, what makes you think she would actually be a decent sort of grandmother to your children?. Why do you want them to have a relationship with her when your own relationship is fractured to such a degree?.

I do not think you were given a voice as a child and both parents let you down abjectly. You still are not being heard by your mother now. She stayed in such a marriage for her own reasons and also put this man above and before her children. Your mother had a choice re this man, you did not. I think she simply wants to play mummy again to your own children.

You need to define properly your own boundaries with regards to your mother; what is and is not acceptable to you with regards to her. BACP are very good re counselling and they do not charge the earth.

Your e-mail is sound but she could likely take your words now and use this against you in reply. I think she will never properly apologise nor accept any responsibility for her actions.

[Waltermittythesequel]

Then I would spell that out to her Mama, so that there is no room for misunderstanding.

If it was me, I would probably want NC with the dc for a little while, too. The reason being that you don't know how this will go and if she does try to manipulate you, she will not be above using the children to do that.

Completely up to you, of course. But give yourself time to process everything and don't feel pressured into having it 'resolved' straight away.

[rememberthetime]

I am one of those Mums in an abusive relationship (not physical though) who found it impossible to leave - although am finally getting out now.
I get a lot of anger from my daughter who is a teenager and I accept most of it becuase I feel I deserve it.
But after talking it through with my therapist i realised a few things. that even though i didn't leave or make him leave i worked bloody hard day after day to protect the kids from his behaviour - to only let them see his good side whenevr possible.
That meant that i didn't work so I would always be the one to look after them, I would rush round the house tidying away their toys so he wouldn't shout at them, I would keep him happy in the bedroom so he was calmer and nice to them, I cooked his favourite meals, followed his rules, ensured the kids stuck to his rules, lied to him so they wouldnt get in trouble and took the blame many times for things they did.
I put my own mental health at risk so my children would be safe. But through doing all that I didn't have the energy or mental capacity left to consider how to leave.That was the worst part. I was so bogged down with what had to be done day to day I couldn't see the big picture - not until I was able to get my life back once he started to improve.

I also saw this from my own mother. She endured, so that we were safe. I now love her for this becuase I know she did the best she could. it wasn't ideal but he is the one who should be to blame - not her. i feel you are letting him off the hook.

Sometimes children blame the person who is safest to blame. getting angry at her is safer than directing anger at him. You learnt that very early on. yes she made mistakes and she paid for them. Now she just doesn't know how to not be a victim.

[nicknameinvalid123]

mamaka I urge you to stop and think and play for time with your mother. Take time and perhaps see a therapist to decide how you want to move forward. Avoid making a hasty decision based on anger-put logic into the equation too.

I think I would reply to her that you find yourself constantly feeling angry with her and that you think it is linked to her having failed to protect you in the past and that you sometimes feel that she is taking over your role as mother with your children.
Tell her that you want to take some time to think about this when you are feeling less upset and that you would like her to think about it too.

Then do take some time to think:
What errors has she made as a mother and also what did she do right? Is remembers post relevant?
Try to put yourself in your Mum's shoes in the 70s and 80s. Sometimes people unconsciously identify with the aggressor and come to despise a parent they see as weak. I'm not saying that's the case but think about it.

What does she bring to the relationship now that is positive and what is negative? In what sense is she taking over your role as mother. Is she being a supportive grandparent or is she actively criticizing your decisions and putting you down to the children?

If its all negative by all means move on but be careful not to throw away a potentially good relationship.

I strongly recommend therapy to clear your mind and look into the roots of the anger.

You can always reduce or stop contact in the future but I would think about it first.

I am definitely not dismissing your right to your angry feelings just urging against an impulsive decision.