Blow up with martyr complex mum

[Mamaka]

Lots of history with my mum from when we were growing up. Dad was physically abusive and mum turned a blind eye. I've grown up to see her unfortunately as weak and a bit of a martyr. She gets her self esteem from looking after everyone else but herself, in fact it seems she likes to run herself down a bit so everyone will tell her how hard she works and how strong a person she is. You get the picture, yes I know how bitter I sound.

She looks after my 2 dc 2 days a week, it will go down to 1 dc 2 days a week as my eldest has just gone to school. I've pulled her up before on her lack of boundaries with them and also for undermining me (talking over me when I arrive and am sorting them out, telling them to get ready etc) she improves for a bit then goes back to how she was. I can't afford to pay for childcare, it wouldn't be worth me working and I also want to facilitate the dc's relationship with her.

Today she was changing my very tired 2 year old's nappy and he was kicking her arms so she couldn't do it. I asked her to let me take over and she said no she was fine. She then continued to struggle and get kicked. I said again, let me do it he's tired, she said in a snippy voice no I'll do it and carried on, holding my son's leg quite roughly, so I got up and grabbed the nappy and sort of barged her out the way. She tripped over a box of books on the floor but didn't fall and didn't hurt herself, she just stumbled and then huffed oh for goodness sake and went to pick up my dd, who really didn't need to be picked up. After I'd put them in the car I asked her if she would have ignored any other parent asking her to let them do their kid's nappy. She didn't answer but sort of blustered about saying things like I was only trying to help and you're overreacting. I got angry and shouted at her that she was always undermining me and disrespecting me as a parent and she shut the door and told me to stop shouting. I think all she was thinking about was if the neighbours could hear. She said she would never have spoken to her mum like that at my age and I said she needed to stop trying to portray herself as "good" and better than everyone just because she never gets angry.

Eventually I left. I didn't feel bad immediately afterwards but now I feel awful, guilty, anxious and ungrateful. But then I think, she's got me right where she wants me hasn't she?! Indebted to her eternally and never able to pull her up on anything because she looks after my dc and is the mother Theresa of her village.

Sorry this got so long.
Did I overreact? If so, how can I deal with it better next time? If not, what do I do to stop it happening again?

[SusieGreen]

All of this angst and derision towards your mum, yet you are quite fine to use her for free child care.
Honestly, OP, you need to sort out your own issues because it is quite possible that YOU are the toxic person here.

I feel sorry for both of you. Whilst you have so much anger there will never be anything your mum can do 'right'. Knowing this, how are you being any better than you perceive your mother by subjecting her to your constant disappointment for the free child care? She's always going to 'fail' you until you sort your feelings out.

[NoMudNoLotus]

Your mum is just doing her best OP. She's doing the best that she can with what she has got.

When you actually take this in to your heart ( and I'm not being patronising here I'm talking from experience ) it all becomes a lot easier to live with.

Your carrying your hurts, she's carrying hers.
I wouldn't mind betting that some part of her OP feels ashamed .

[Justmuddlingalong]

I had a really rough childhood. Yet my DM makes out we were like the Waltons. She was all show when my kids came along, I sometimes have to remind her that it was me and not her who gave birth to them. She's never, ever had them alone. Not overnight, for the evening or even for a few hours. I would not allow her behaviour to fuck up another generation. We are very low contact now thankfully. Head over to the Stately Homes thread.

[MrTCakes]

I feel sorry for you both to be honest. The way that you treated your mother today was not acceptable and certainly not infront of children. But it sounds like you have been through a lot yourself and there is anger and resentment simmering just under the surface.
I hope that you are able to talk it through with your Mum and somehow arrange other childcare. Maybe your relationship would improve?

[Mamaka]

Thank you lavender. It does feel complex and very miserable. I feel like I "should" feel a certain way about my mum (grateful, close, in awe of her strength and resilience among other things) but what I would really like to do is leave this town and have a phone relationship with her. Only I feel too guilty for taking away my kids from her (as if they were hers).

[Justmuddlingalong]

You should do what's right for you and your kids.

[Mamaka]

Just - sorry you also had a rough childhood. My mum also thinks we are currently like the Waltons, her new dh (who is emotionally abusive, so in her eyes a step up from my dad) her shiny set of grandchildren and her 2 daughters who feel obliged to remain in the same town as her because she "couldn't bear it" if they were far away. Yup, just like the Waltons.

[Mamaka]

I sent her a long text apologising for my behaviour earlier as well as explaining that I don't like to feel dependent on her because she is providing childcare and she replied "don't feel overly dependent" ok so she just wants me to feel a little bit dependent?

[Justmuddlingalong]

You are in the FOG. Fear, obligation and guilt. It's hard to shake off, but it's possible.

[Mamaka]

Actually I've just read lavender's post through again and it is spot on. It is worded in a way I could never vocalise because it is so confusing.
Susie I take your point, I probably am a little toxic but where do you think that started brewing? People are not born with a streak of toxicity in them.

[NoMudNoLotus]

But you have choices OP - whether to be toxic - or not.

[Mamaka]

She also has choices, whether to say yes or no to me asking if she can look after my dc, whether to allow me to take authority as a parent or whether to undermine it, whether to face the fact that she had a part in ruining my childhood or brush it under the carpet yet again.

I did ask in previous posts about what to do with my anger but still don't really have a clear idea. I have had my 6 free NHS counselling sessions and can't afford more.

[Mamaka]

Suggestions of talking it through with my mum would probably work if she were a reasonable person with regular issues and opinions and if I were not damaged fucking goods with lots of anger towards her and if we had a relationship where we could actually talk.

[Letseatgrandma]

She also has choices, whether to say yes or no to me asking if she can look after my dc

But why did you ask her if the first place. Given how much you felt let down by her during your childhood, why would you then want to leave your children with her? You are now utterly dependent on her again.

[shinynewusername]

Suggestions of talking it through with my mum would probably work if she were a reasonable person with regular issues and opinions and if I were not damaged fucking goods with lots of anger towards her and if we had a relationship where we could actually talk.

Yes, no one should be telling you that you don't have the right to be angry or suggesting that this can all be put right with a cosy chat with your DM. And I completely get your frustration with your DM trying to re-write history and not acknowledging your trauma from childhood.

None of that makes it acceptable to shove your mother out the way or undermine her in front of your kids. You should apologise for your behaviour yesterday, but working through what happened in your childhood is far more complex - please consider getting some support

[TheBakeryQueen]

I understand that this is a complex situation but what stands out for me is that you are continuing the cycle of abuse, taking over where your father left off.

Whatever else is going on neither of you are role modelling healthy or normal behaviour in front of your children.

You are undermining her as much as she is undermining you, only you're doing it with agressive behaviour.

[lavenderpekins]

I'm not where you are in the country op but some family therapy all together - your mum, sister & you with someone excellent I'm sure would be very positive. You can't change the past as you well know - neither can your mum but you can move forward together as a family in a more positive way. I know someone brilliant in London if that appropriate.

You need somewhere neutral, safe and someone very experienced.

It's also a cliche but you could write to your mum..

[Isetan]

You have every right to be angry with her but that anger doesn't benefit you or your children, learn to detach from her behaviour or limit your exposure to it, this is who she is and you can not change her. Either way, I think her providing childcare is a mistake and will only lead to more issues. Do you really want your children to be exposed to the unresolved issues between their mother and grandmother?

Have you ever spoken to a therapist about your childhood experiences, has your younger self ever had the opportunity to have her pain and sadness acknowledged. It doesn't sound like your mother is ever going to be in the woman to acknowledge or accept responsibility for her contribution to your abusive childhood. So the onus is on you to find a way to either make peace with it or limit your exposure to the trigger of that unresolved anger and pain.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Problem here is that people like Mamaka's mother would likely not agree to any sort of family therapy.

A letter could be written by the OP most certainly BUT it must not be sent (it could well be used as ammo against the OP by her mother). OP is better off seeing a therapist alone.

Mamaka - your parents were not good parents to you, such people often turn out to be rubbish examples of grandparent figures to your children. You perhaps only allowed your mother to have a relationship with your children despite your own personal knowledge of what she was like, you were perhaps hoping that she would behave better this time around.

What are your own boundaries like with regards to your mother? To me they still seem way too low. Why was she ever considered as childcare for your children.

BACP are good and do not charge the earth; NHS sessions as you have seen are limited in number and you clearly need some more help.

[pallasathena]

You need to let go of the hurt you experienced as a child. You need to move on. Constantly blaming and demonising your mum for everything that's wrong in your life has become habit forming. You go round and round, thinking the same things, reacting in the same way and its like a stuck record being played over and over again.
Break the habit, see your mum as a person in her own right, someone who is, like the rest of us, flawed, not perfect, tries her best, would like a bit of love and respect from those she cares about. Have a bit of compassion, understanding even and try each day to be the bigger person.
And if you can, learn to forgive.

[sentia]

Failing to protect your own children by enabling an abuser is a form of abuse.

It might be understandable, but not necessarily excusable in the eyes of a child. And while you can, with adult eyes, now understand your mum's position when you were a child, inside you there is still the child you used to be who deserved to be protected from all of that and who didn't understand why the people who should love you most in the world and care for you didn't keep you safe.

I think anger is quite legitimate and quite normal in your circumstances, and you will probably need some professional support to work through it. The stately homes thread might help too if you're not on it already?

Re this particular situation, I think yes you should apologise, if only because you don't want to become your dad in terms of how you approach conflict. And definitely reduce your dependence on your mum for childcare if you can, I don't think a context of obligation will help you to work through the deeper issues.

Also remember that your mum is also an adult. She knows what happened when you were a child. She knows you are an independent adult now, with your own views about your past. She's absolutely kidding herself if she thinks your relationship now can be "normal" without addressing the history.

[Mamaka]

"Constantly blaming and demonising your mum for everything that's wrong in your life has become habit forming. You go round and round, thinking the same things, reacting in the same way and its like a stuck record being played over and over again."

This is absolutely true. I do not know HOW to stop this. I have tried, really I have, but at the moment the only thing I can imagine helping is moving a long way away and conducting our relationship over phone and text.
I have apologised and told her that for one of the days I will send my ds to nursery (the other day she takes him to playgroup where her grandma friends go so less pressure I think).
She was very upset and tried to persuade me not to do that.
I have told her it isn't because of yesterday it's because I'd like him to experience different settings. She's still upset.

[Froginapan]

OP - you say that your mum was handling your son roughly.

Is this something that's happened before?

[PeggyMitchell123]

You need to try and let go off the past. I had a difficult relationship with my mum who was too in a abusive relationship and carried it around for ages. It's not worth it, your mum can't change what happened and I think it's a good thing your mum is good with your kids. My mum has done the same, she has much more time for her grandsons, is very good with them etc. It has brought us closer because it does show she is capable, and I can understand a lot of how she was when we were younger was because of abuse. She was a victim as well.

Also I think sometimes you should not be so quick to be involved with your mum is there. My mum says we me and my sister do that it makes her feel like she can't do something. Now unless my son is calling for me, I leave her to it. Certainly going over and shoving your mum does not reflect well on you.

I would speak to a professional about your issues so you can start to move on.

[Mamaka]

To those who have said I sound unpleasant and toxic, I'm with you actually. It's what I beat myself up with every day. Unfortunately that's not helping.

Those who have some experience of this, I need to know what would actually help me. She has said verbally that she is sorry (usually followed by, but I couldn't do anything, or, but he was a good dad in other ways) and these conversations have made no difference. She once offered to pay for counselling for me (she thought I was depressed) but I didn't want to be even more indebted to her. In her eyes it's all in the past and she's done everything she can to make amends. So what exactly am I looking for? And what might my boundaries with her look like?