Have I just been gaslighted?

[Junoberry75]

We have a little boy who is something of a collector and has form for moving important things - keys, phones etc so that when someone is looking for them he can leap up and be the hero. He's only 5, and it's mostly cute. (Note mostly!)

DH and I have a rocky marriage. We stay together for the children, there's no sexual intimacy whatsoever and despite counselling and therapy I don't see that improving, and told him as much this week on hols. He didn't say much apart from that he didn't want us to break up but I could tell he's annoyed. He plays the role of the great and bountiful provider, and I have little say in the finances although I do have my own money.

Anyway we came back today and I was dashing around looking for my bank card as I needed to get out some cash to pay for DS's holiday club which I owed from last week. It had gone from where I thought I'd put it - in the front if the big beach bag, and instead in there was DH's sunglasses, so I knew he'd been in there. I really needed to find it but it had disappeared. I looked everywhere and then little DS said "daddy saw your card and said "hmm" and put it in his wallet." I asked DH had he seen it and he said no and then launched into a giant rant about how irresponsible I am, he wouldn't be giving me another penny as I'd already had the money for the holiday club, blah blah. So I ended up going down to the bank with ID and getting cash over the counter.

Then I came back and was tidying up and there was DHs wallet on the mantelpiece so I looked inside and there was my bank card!

I went to find DH and asked him could he explain and he laughed it off and said DS must have done it, why would he do that etc. But his wallet is quite stiff, you have to jiggle the cards to get them in and out, and now I'm suspicious. I'm going to have another chat with DS but I'm confused.

Am I being gaslighted?

I've lost sight, I think, of normal. There's only "normal for us".

Normal for your children, then. It's sad to think of this. How will they learn about 'reasonable'? Will they grow up expecting their relationships to be underhand & oppositional?

It might be illuminating to think about whether your PIL's relationship is/was also a continual power struggle, and whether your own parents are frequently in battle.

I've just had a little chat with DS and now he says he made it up and he didn't see daddy move it.

But the card turned out to be in DH's wallet, no? So when your DS said he had seen daddy move it either he was telling the truth or he was psychic. I know which is more likely!

So when your DS is now saying that he didn't see daddy move the card, that is clearly the lie.

Kids are perceptive. Your DS has picked up on the tension between you and is now lying to you in an attempt to fix it. This is worrying on three levels - firstly that he is clearly aware of the problems and they are distressing enough for him to make him want them sorted. Secondly that he feels responsible for having to fix them. Thirdly that he feels the need to be dishonest in order to do so.

Already this is impacting the kids - and you have another 13 years of a deteriorating version of this before your DS reaches adulthood. Do you really still think that separating would be worse for the kids?

And that's just the kids. What about you? As others have said who knows whether this was gas-lighting or just downright lying but either way it is not acceptable. And he then allowed you and the children to go out of your way and inconvenience yourself just to get access to money, when he could have just given you your card back (or "found it" if he didn't want to own up). And within all that he comments about refusing to pay any more money for his children's childcare. These are all red flags for the beginnings of a controlling relationship.

On top of that when you thought the bank card was lost he didn't help you in anyway. He didn't say "never mind what money do you need" he didn't help you look. Instead he ranted. This is man who when you have a problem is going to have a go at you rather than help.

And even your 5 year is feeling the atmosphere.

DoreenLethal my husband hadn't spoken to my DS when I talked to him this morning. In any event though that card could not have got into the wallet without DH doing it

Well...your son couldn't have done it and now he is saying he made it up...what it's just a complete coincidence that he now didn't see his dad put it in his wallet it just happened to get there all on it's own?

Your son is more perceptive than you. Please do something about it!

I asked DH had he seen it and he said no and then launched into a giant rant about how irresponsible I am, he wouldn't be giving me another penny as I'd already had the money for the holiday
I would put money on DH knowing exactly where the bank card is at this point. The giant rant that followed is a deflection technique to divert the conversation, to control the conversation, away from the fact he has just told you an enormous lie. I know the mindset, I've lived it myself. Juno, please wake up and smell the coffee. I know it's hard to believe from your DH, the father of your children, the man who made solemn promises to you on your wedding day, let's fact it from another human being, but he is psychologically abusing you. He is laughing at you on the other side of his face. The consolation you have is that controlling, abusive men all seem to have read the same handbook so keep posting here for support from those who know what you can expect, having already got the t-shirt.
I think your 5yo is stabbing around in the dark trying to work out the 'right' answer mummy wants to hear. The one he gave yesterday clearly wasn't the 'right' one because that resulted in tension in the house and mummy asking again this morning. So he thought he'd try a different answer today to see if that would do the trick and diffuse things. He just wants to please mummy and give her the answer she is looking for.
Even your DS is starting to doubt his own mind!
I don't think it's a good idea to talk to DH about splitting up anymore to avoid more mind games. Play your cards close to your chest, phone Women's Aid about how best to end the relationship safely (0808 2000 247 free 24hrs 7days), remembering to cover your tracks on your phone/laptop. You need to know controlling types can get aggressive and even more abusive when they realise it's game over, you are in a potentially dangerous situation. Tread carefully, do not get drawn into any attempts at provocation particularly physical, ignore.

. . face . .

Or he was just pissed off and did this to annoy me? Is it really LTB territory?

Look at the bigger picture. He purposely did something so he could shout at and belittle you. Normal people don't do that. This will not be a one off.

If my Dh did this it would seriously set a thought process off in my head about the type of man I'm living with

I'm rattled.

Did you really think the rant was normal behaviour?

Sounds like your DS was within earshot when DH was ranting at you? Was he not disturbed? Didn't he need to talk to you about it? Or does he think that is a usual way for daddies to talk to mummies, so not even worthy of mention?

Your marriage sounds awful. Take it from me as the child of an unhappy marriage, staying will screw up your children far more than modelling a healthy refusal to put up with relationship misery would.

Handholding Juno. The day that penny drops and you see the light is an awful one.

Sounds like whether he gaslighted you on this occasion or not is the least of your worries.

The fact that you believe it's possible he did, speaks volumes.

As others have said, you're more likely to screw your kid's life up by staying with this guy than leaving him.

You don't need to be in awe of lone parents. We're just normal women like you. We once thought we would never be able to cope on our own as well. Because that's the myth society spins us: the two visions of lone parents are feckless hoo-er or supermummy who no normal woman can live up to, so you'd better stay with your horrible abusive husband. Both visions serve the purpose of making women afraid to be lone parents so that men can control them better. Don't be fooled. If you need to leave this guy (and frankly it sounds like you do), you'll do just as good a job as all those women you're in awe of.

Ok, here's how it would go in my normal, ordinary marriage if I lost my bank card & I needed to pay for something... DH would help me look for it, and if we couldn't find it he would go and get cash out for me or let me use his card. THAT is normal.

At this point, either your DH is messing with you & lying, or your DS is. And if it's your DS, where has he learned this behaviour...? Neither of these outcomes are good for your children - why are you staying?

Juno I'm going through a separation right now. Less than I year ago I remember thinking "but I can't do that. It's just unthinkable" even though I wanted to and had dreamed about being single for some time, it seemed just too much upheaval to cause and too overwhelming to contemplate. But here I am. I reached the point where I had to say no, I won't put up with this. It was a lot of similar stuff - lying and gaslighting, passive-aggressive crap, awful communication where I always felt confused and wrong-footed. I had become so accustomed to thinking "should I even raise this with him, do I have the strength for the shitstorm that will probably happen because I dared to mention it?" that I didn't even have a view of what it would be like not having to live like that.

Now I have set it all in motion - and yes it's hard work and emotionally taxing and there's a long way to go with moving house, sorting out finances, etc etc and supporting the kids through a tough time. But every day I see more and more clearly how far away from a normal, happy relationship it was, and how hard it was for me to see that clearly when it was "normal for us". I just went through a constant cycle of feeling confused, frustrated, upset, angry, guilty for getting angry, and back to square one. Realising you can step away from that and do things differently is a big step but it cam be done.

Juno - I 'm so sorry you're going through this and it must be very difficult to read some of the replies here.

You mention in your OP that you and your DH have tried counselling and you told him on holiday that you don't see how the intimacy problems between you are likely to improve. If he senses that you are resolved about this, he will be feeling rejected / not needed and so may resort to weird and desperate tactics to "control" the situation -to try and make you feel that you're still dependent on him. Finances are still within his control, if nothing else, so he may be using this against you, hence the bizarre card incident?

The thing that jumps out for me most of all in your OP is this -

"He wouldn't be giving me another penny..."

Why would your DH need to "give" you money at all?

You describe him (sarcastically I know) as "the great and bountiful provider" - also that you have little control over your finances, but have your "own money".

Why on earth is this? My DH is also the sole financial provider to myself and our 4 children, but there has never been any sense that the money he earns is "his" money, or something that he "gives" to us as and when he sees fit. Everything just goes into the bank and we have equal access to it. He trusts that I know best what the children need and that's that. I never have to justify my spending patterns to him any more than he would to me. I wouldn't need to have my own money stashed away somewhere because what would be the point?

I think you should just tell him that you know he tried to deceive you over the card and that this attempt to control you smacks of desperation. It's the intimacy problems that are at the crux of it all, I would suspect.

Obviously you know your DH and I don't, but this would be my perspective based on the info you've given.

Good luck

Hope you feel less rattled today OP.