Things get even weirder - now feel quite worried

[rememberthetime]

previous thread

[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2689969-I-am-sure-I-did-the-right-thing-but-marriage-might-be-over?msgid=62582457]

Hopefully that link worked...

So it all kicked off again the last few days. DD and DS started a bit of an agument - she asked him politely not to do something that was triggering her anxiety. he said no. She asked him to just stop for a short while and he again refused and began to accuse her of not taking responsibility for her problems.

At this point DH and I intervened - but H took it as a chance to tell DD she was failing in her communication, that she needs to recognise the impact she has on the family. DS agreed and then H asked me to say how I felt. Then turned to me as if to say "come on...back me up here - that's how you prove you are a proper co-parent". Essentially it became a chance for everyone to have a go at dd. She disintegrated into shouting and crying and shaking. She couldn't understand how she was such a bad person. This went on for at least 30min with dh doing almost all the talking.

Some of what was said was fair - but it was 3 against one and it felt like bullying. I was silent most of the time - until H began telling her to end the conversation and asking her if she would like us to stop and talk about it another time. She said she didn't know and genuinely had o idea what was happening to her. it was awful.

I just bundled her into another room and got her away from it. I was then told off by H as he didn't think it was helpful - but my ds backed me up and pointed out to him that dd needed calming down and I was the person who could do it.

Since then - dd stayed in her room for 36 hours. refused to eat and only this morning has emerged for a drink and snack.

I have told H it is over. That I can't expose our dd to this any longer. he says I am wrong but that I should do whatever I want.

I feel i let her down. I was scared to voice what I was seeing and the injustice and tried to get her to see the good points we were making. I didn't realise until much later that the whole thing was engineered to be a chance to bully her.

Now for the weird bits. Today he sent all of us (the kids too) a link to a you tube video of some Indian guru talking about how important it is to feel sure of yourself and not to let outside stuff affect your behaviour etc. just some waffle to be honest.

He said in his email to all of us that he is so happy to have finally gotten to this point in his life and how it has been a long journey - but he is so happy and excited for the future.

DD asked if he had become a buddhist or something. She and I are incredulous.

He also asked me to read a section of a book this morning which essentially told me I am an over protective mother.

My head is in a whirl. I honestly don't know what to think. he bombards us with psychobabble and it is almost starting to feel pyschopathic. (I don't know if that is the right word - sorry). But it feels wrong and abusive and now he is happy to share his insights with the kids as well as me.

The fact is that I am leaving. but before then, we go on holiday which cannot be rearranged. I just need to get through that.

I have decided to take out a loan to cover the initial costs of a rental then just see what can be done after that to sell the house. But getting myself and DD (and ds if he wants) away from this damaging environment has to be the priority.

DH wants me to think about the fact that DS will see this as me taking DD away and leaving him behind. He wants me to take the time to sort it out properly, but i feel like I can't live here a moment longer. it is a toxic environment. Will I destroy my son (17) for life if i just leave and give him the option of coming or staying...the longer I leave this the higher the chance H will talk me round or make me think I should stay for the kids.

My head is mush...

Reading op made me feel weird. Remember I agree that in the hands of someone trying to grow, that language can be useful, but H just seems to be using it to do everyone's heads in, to project his own stuff, deflect attention away from his abuse (by having all these 'insights' and divide and rule as pp said.

He's making you doubt yourself when he says what DS would think. In fact writing everyone's script seems to be his job.Your DD seems to be protecting her integrity quite admirably but the abusive scapegoating of her (as source of family ills) is intolerable imo.

Don't go on this holiday. Things that are bad at home can be unbearably stressful if you're away somewhere together. Don't 'endure' it, it will set you back.

How can you be saying you "need this holiday" after the way he treated your DD?

dd is 14. very head strong and extremely clever. Both kids excel at school and music. Creative and academic types - yes, I am a very proud Mum :)

Yes, the mind bending head fuckery is torture. I dont think he knows he does it...

Burning - I guess I just mean I need a break from the day in day out stuff happening. I hope a few days away might give me some respite. Might be worse though, I admit.

I will look after dd interests while we are away. I can't do anything before we go at the end of this week anyway. it is too close.

We are away for less than a week.

So he is hypersensitive about ds' needs and totally insensitive to dd's needs? or more like whatever suits him best.

I'm glad you are making your escape plan, OP.

I just read your other thread - do you have a younger DD as well? so 3 children or 2? Which is the one that you said cannot sleep away from home?

You said your DH is a "recovering controller" - well that's not true is it - how is he "recovering"? Sounds like he's working on becoming even worse!

I am not sure this splitting up of the family will be in your DD's best interests. She has mental health issues and is under specialist therapist care. Yet you and DH and your son are having stand up rows and heated debates left right and centre.
Your 14yr old stayed for 36hrs in her room without food or drink?
I am absolutely certain that your 17yr old DS really cares for his sister, as does she him. Just because they are teens getting on each other's nerves doesn't mean they are not really important to each other.
You cannot ask your 17yr the question - do you want to live with me or Dad? I strongly feel if you split up this family in a volatile way that your DD's mental health will suffer more. She will blame herself for everything. She loves her brother and despite them being at each other's throats, separating them would be even worse. She is 14. Just a child, she cannot cope with the feelings she has already.
I suggest you and your DH go to a family therapist, just the two of you and learn some skills on how to communicate in front of your children, and let go your need to be right or prove a point (your DH at any rate needs to learn that).
You and your DH are tough adults, but you have two very vulnerable teens in the house, they are your priority. It just sounds like you don't know what to do when it all kicks off and everyone starts thinking what they need to get out of the conversation and what points they need to score. That all needs to stop. It's not about who is right, who knows what's best for everyone, who needs to take responsibility for what. And it's not about Let Me Tell You What Your Problem Is. It's about How To Talk To Each Other.
A family therapist should be able to get you all to communicate in a way that doesn't incite or inflame situations. Your DH can't argue with that. Sorry now I may have read into this wrong with my quick read over of the situation. I know you are a loving parent who only wants the best for all concerned and I wish you the best of luck with it.

OP, your husband is abusive.

Please don't listen to previous posters who suggest joint therapy.

I have travelled in a lot of 'spiritual' circles, and the kind of psychobabble your H is spouting is a particularly effective tactic and strategy by abusers who use the spiritual angle to head-fuck with others. It is all too common, it is narcissistic, and it is damaging. And you will NOT get him to stop. He may be unaware of it, and that does not mean he is not abusive, nor that he has any capacity for insight or change.

I am also going to suggest that if your H were to leave that your DD's "mental health" problems would swiftly ease and, with the proper support, become a thing of the past.

To answer your opening post OP, no you will not destroy your son for life by leaving with DD. Tell him that you would dearly love him to come with you and DD, but will respect his decision to choose. At 17 I think he is entitled to make that choice. If he chooses to stay with his dad, tell him that their is a room for him at yours, and let him decorate/choose stuff for it. Tell him that he can always change his mind, and move in/stay long term with you if he wishes. One of my daughters (bit older than your DS) spends more time at her dad's than mine, because it is much closer to where she works. We are still very close and have loads of contact. Good luck, and if your H is a buddhist, then I'm the Sugar Plum Fairy!!

Just 2 kids - its the same dd with the sleeping issues and yes she refused to eat for 36 hours and wouldn't leave her room. Bad sign I know.

We tried couples counselling - he used the "tools" against me. Accused me of doing it all wrong and slavishly backed up everything he said with remember what the therapist said about this...basically telling me I was wrong because my thoughts were different from the therapist. Couples or family counselling is never recommended when there is abuse...

Sadie - you sound just like him. He seems to think it will all come right with more and more therapy. Sometimes the problems are rooted much deeper and what is needed is space.

get out of this destructive situation and tell him where to shove his spiritual counselling shite.

Of course he knows he does it.

He's an abusive controller.

And a total headfuck.

He knows how to upset you/undermine you/confuse you. (Take your pick)

He knows exactly what he's doing.

The OP does not need need to "learn communication skills." She needs a plan in place for managing an exit from this controlling bully. The OP is not "splitting up the family" Her husband is doing that with his behaviour.

If the main problem in your family is your DH, why do you want to leave your DS behind? That would just subject him to all his DFs craziness.

It will be much easier to take both DCs and reconsider it later than it will be to leave your DS behind and then change your mind.

The first part of your post sounded like counselling speak and I agree you are right to break away from that. Emotionally abusive people find it very easy to turn counsellors and therapy to their advantage.

Actually I agree with Cary, at 17 he does have the right to choose, but please give him the choice.

Please protect your daughter better. The fact that you let your DH and your DS abuse her for 30 minutes breaks my heart.

Then get out. You and your DS and DD. As fast as you can.

I totally agree I am letting her down. Yes, it was 30 mins - but you probabaly haven't dealt with someone of his calibre when it comes to emotional abuse before. he truly sounds so reasonable at the time and then you think about it later and wonder how you let it happen. It makes no sense to me other than to say that I have lived this way for many many years and he just sounds so rational and reasonable at the time.

I will protect her and believe me, I am doing a better job now than I used to because I see more of it. But the more I push back the harder he tries.

My son just doesn't get the same level of personal attack as dd and I do. My H doesn't target him at all. He used to, but doesn't now. In fact he doesn't really see DS faults at all. he seems to be able to do no wrong. That is why I don't fear him staying with H - bu I will always have a home for him if he wants it.

That makes me wonder if he actually has a problem with women...

I think you're making the right decision - you need to get your DD out of there. Of course you should offer your son the option to come too, but it sounds like he will be OK with his dad (will he be going away to uni next year?). Your son is 17, you can't make him do anything - just reassure him he will always have a home with you if he wants it and that if the dynamic shifts between him and your husband after you've left, he is welcome to join you at any time.

just as an aside...

he adds dates into his diary to keep track of his "approaches" towards our DD. Example that he will try being honest with her about his feelings about her behaviour until the end of August then "reassess" that approach. if it fails he will try another way such as ignoring an pretending he doesn't care.

I told him that all he should be is himself. But he believes that you need to measure success and you can't do that unless you have a consistent approach. I also said I wanted nothing to do with his timed reassessments.

This reminds me of how he would give me the silent treatment for days on end before finally saying that he was just trying to see if i would get what was wrong. Which of course I didn't...Then he would point out he was ignoring me because I wasn't eating healthily. Was he keeping track of the number of days and ticking off each one before finally revealing his grand plan.

He says he is changed - yet he is still treating people in the same old ways. Oh god, how do I get away :(

Have pm'd you

He sounds like hard work.

This needs to end. His controlling is even planned, it's terrifying. Your son, albeit back in his favours, if left behind will be the only one he can manipulate so their are 2 outcomes.
1, he turns his venom on DS
2, he gets DS onboard & they both turn against the females.

You seem to want to go on this holiday, & clearly you do need a break, but a break would be 1 week without him too.
I think you should go with the 2 kids & he should not go, but clearly he won't agree as he won't be able to control & manipulate.

I would announce that you are separating to the DCs, tell them your reasoning, & even if DS doesn't understand, he will understand. "I am unhappy" . You are your children's keeper until they are old enough & able to understand for themselves.

Go on this holiday if you must, but then it is over, no more joint therapy. Do the figures, get a SHL. & end this misery.

Beware, he is already likely to be looking through your emails, change all your passwords, check there is no iCloud, or other cloud that enables him to read your correspondence.
copy all the documents you can find, bank, pay, mortgage, retirement, savings. get all important docs out of the house. to a friend, a family member, or you work place.
Start making an escape fund. Take any money that is yours & open a new bank account in your name, & get statements on line. he doesn't need to know it exists.
Make an aptmt at CAB & get information about your rights,
Call WA, Do the freedom programme.
Information is power.

Remember he is NOT your friend, & when you take any moves to separate, he will becomes an adversary.
Abusive controllers become vengeful when they their prey rebels.

As clear as it seems to me and to anyone who knows me, he never understands it. He honestly believes he is doing his best for everyone around him. he talks about having empathy and how he just loves us all so much.

I often question to what extent I overplay his behaviour.

Nothing overt exists any more. No shouting or controlling. He claims to have no interest in controlling me or the kids and keeps telling us so. it is incredibly subtle, but he is still doing things that keep him feeling safe.

He honestly believes he is in such a good place in his life with a full understanding of his behaviour in the past with no wish to repeat old behaviour. Yet his wife and child are falling apart and he sees no connection between him and that fact.

He honestly thinks that we are to blame and are still holding on to his old behaviour as an excuse to blame him. Yet he says he is soooo happy. How on earth can he be?

I clearly need to stop analysing what he is doing and just get on with what is good for me and the kids. Trying to understand him is a nightmare.

I will be returning to my personal therapist after our holiday.

Things are currently frosty at home. I am trying to keep things even for the sake of our time away, but I won't be changing my mind.

I am also putting my energies into working to get as much money behind me as possible. I may even work while I am away - it compares favourably to talking to him in the evening and could result in a few hundred pounds extra.

A man who tracks and plans confrontation in a diary knows exactly what he's doing. He chooses to 'not understand' to control and baffle you. Mix56 has given you brilliant advice. You have to summon the strength to act on it. Start doing everything suggested as soon as you return from the holiday, which personally, I wouldn't go on.