MIL's behaviour, new baby

[MrsPickwick]

Hi. I'm not sure what to do about this or whether I'm overreacting and would appreciate some objective viewpoints.

DH and I have just returned from visiting his family. I'm six months pregnant with our first (and what will be his parents' sixth grandchild). It was quite a fraught / tense trip, because of MIL's controlling behaviour, but one thing in particular she did really disturbed me and upset us both.

We were briefly looking around an old church with DH's parents. MIL is quite religious, the rest of us are not. She knows our views on religion and is very aware that we don't want it being pushed on our child.

In the church, she suddenly grabbed me from behind, and held me while drawing the sign of the cross in holy water over my bump and saying 'god bless this baby'. I was completely caught off guard and couldn't stop her. I'm shocked that she would think it acceptable to do that to me against my will, and we now fear that if she's given unsupervised access to our baby a secret baptism will be performed.

There's background here - controlling, unpredictable behaviour that makes her stressful to be around, but DH and I now feel that we should think about how we can protect our kid from this sort of thing.

It's not even about the religion: it's the complete disregard for our feelings and for my bodily autonomy. I actually feel violated (it's so much worse than your average bump bothering). She attacked me from behind! DH and I both asked wtf she thought she was doing. At first she laughed it off and grabbed my belly again, then she said she 'thought we were Christian'. (Our dinner table discussions with her about our atheism and beliefs go back ten years: she was lying).

We already have some problems with how she and FIL relate to / talk about some of their other grandchildren, as an aside. They bitch about them openly, in front of them, and call them names, and make unfair comparisons with their other grandchildren). We're now considering what to do. We don't want her to come when the baby is born - I can imagine her grabbing him out of my arms whenever she feels like it, dousing him in holy water, shouting if we do something 'wrong', etc etc. FIL is afraid of her and no help at all here. What to do?

(She is capable of behaving well and can be very nice, as well, and is extremely emotionally invested in her family and grandchildren, obviously).

Yeah tell us OP why are you so panicky? I have an awful MIL and she never had unsupervised access for 5 years! Not a big deal i just have different childcare arrangement .... Are you planning on counting on her for childcare?

I'd have screamed 'it burns it burns' and really freaked her out.

she said she 'thought we were Christian'.
Remind her of the 9th Commandment - if she claims to be forgetful, it's at the beginning of Exodus 20. "Thou shalt not lie" - some so called christians will try to weasel out with qualifications, but it's quite simple really.
As a christian, I find this sort of behaviour reprehensible. As a father, I find it scary, and in my situation would not be considering whether access should be supervised; I'd be questioning whether she should be seeing Baby at all.
I don't take my oldest round my Mum's if I can avoid it, because of how my FIL acts about his AS. Still on good terms with both, but I try not to take him round there.

Of course she can be nice - that's how controlling people work!

Right now I'd ignore her totally. Leave the ball in her court. Then when she's fed up of that she'll get in touch. At that point I'd get DH to tell her that her behaviour was completely unacceptable, as is her treatment of her other grandchildren and you are taking some time out to decide where this leaves you.

Don't be rushed into accepting any half arsed apology.

'Apparently yes, priests can endorse secret baptisms or lay baptisms at their discretion'
If it's any reassurance where I am there's a baptism waiting list. You need to turn up with both parents and both godparents for a meeting prior to the ceremony to ensure you know what you're agreeing to and why. It is possible to have a baptism without but it's always been at the parents request and due to the baby being very unwell.
If what you're saying is true then you need to re think your contact with her. Keep it limited and in public places. Challenge any attempts at physical contact and leave your DH to challenge the rest.

2nds, That's a bit unfair - MrsPickwick wasn't "attending church with her MIL", she was briefly looking round an old church. This is generally not a religious activity, such as attending a service would be.

She didn't go to a religious event and freak out at it being religious; she popped in to look at a building, and was upset at being assaulted.

If the mil is romantic Catholic she could baptise the baby herself with no priest. Its just sprinkling water on his head. I think that is what op fears not her sneaking him off to a church in the dead of night. I don't think it will happen as there was a lot of fear around that years ago but not nowadays. Just get your dh to speak strongly to her. I wouldn't be bothered with an apology as if it's forced what's the point.

Minor correction on my post - StepDad, not FIL - been up all night playing Portal, so my brain is shutting down.

Maybe tell her that if you discover she has baptised him, you will take him to some kind of devil worhshipping ritual to even things out?

What's an apology worth if it has to be extracted under duress and the person apologising, has form for repeating the behaviour they apologise for. Her behaviour has consequences and at the moment she hasn't suffered them because you insist on repeating the apology dance, where she pays lip service and promptly develops amnesia.

This is who she is and has always been and it's very very unlikely she's going to change anytime soon. So stop expecting her to be someone she isn't and start changing how you interact with her. If you don't trust her, then don't leave her alone with your child and if she doesn't respect your boundaries, then limit your exposure to her.

"Apparently yes, priests can endorse secret baptisms or lay baptisms at their discretion"

What kind of religion does this? I struggle to believe that this could happen. I'm C of E BTW and I can't imagine that our vicar would even consider doing anything like this.

I don't think it will be that easy for your MIL to have unsupervised access to your child. Make other childcare arrangements for if and when you need it and make sure you are there when your MIL wants to see your baby.

Mrs P

What Isetan wrote.

You do realise that controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour; such actions are rooted in power and control.

You likely come from an emotionally healthy family where this type of dysfunction is thankfully unknown so it is hard to get your head around. Your H has not been so lucky and he may also still have a lot of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) when it comes to his toxic mother.

His mother will not apologise to you (she really does feel she has done nothing wrong here) or if she does it will not be meant; it may well be along the lines of the, "well I'm sorry you feel that way" sort of (non) apology.

Mrs P; your H and your good self will need to toughen up far more when it comes to his mother/your MIL respectively. I would not see her at all now nor put your child anywhere near her to be honest. She is toxic and untrustworthy; you have already seen numerous red flags re her and her (enabler) H re their grandchildren. This part of your initial post in particular should have made you both wary of her anyway long before now:-

"We already have some problems with how she and FIL relate to / talk about some of their other grandchildren, as an aside. They bitch about them openly, in front of them, and call them names, and make unfair comparisons with their other grandchildren"

The above is a huge red flag. Do not think they will not do that to your child as well. Protect your child from such people like his mother and enabler dad (he should not be let off the hook here because he cannot be relied upon).

Re an earler comment you made:-
It certainly is a dysfunctional family dynamic, but there are many good qualities too.

What good qualities are you referring to here? The inherent dysfunction in your H's family of origin cancels out any good qualities.

Such people do not change, all you can change is how you react to them. You both need to up your game here. Your H here is also key; is he fully on your side here and does he fully accept that his parents are not ideal to be with at all. She was not a good parent to your H, she will not be a decent grandparent figure to your child. She is also not at all accepting or respectful of your atheist views and will never accept that either. Past behaviour has already shown that neither she and her H are good grandparent figures.

Do read the Stately Homes and batshit threads; it is true that you cannot communicate with batshit.

You both need to take heed.

OP talks of a trip visiting ILs so it doesn't sound like they are local especially if they went sightseeing.
Doesn't sound like they see them very often. Maybe often enough to teach the dc that different people have differing beliefs and all should be respected ( to me a ranting atheist is as much of a PITA as a ranting believer) but realistically why would a non local grandparent have unsupervised access anyway it doesn't happen unless the parents organize it that way.

With five other grandchildren to share the load the OP has little to worry about as if granny doesn't have free access there's little she can do and other gc to spout her views to more easily.

Obviously family days out to churches with granny should be avoided but I'd be far angrier about inappropriate touching than any ritual which is without meaning as the OP has a different belief system .

I imagine the MIL will be sprinkling holy water on the kid for years to come.

But that's likely all they'll be able to do. In the (modern) Catholic Church for example the priests see baptism as a commitment from the parents to the child as much as anything. The parents have to promise to guide the child in the church etc. Without the parents being present it's only half done, cos there's no guarantee that the child will actually be raised in Christ if the resident cargivers aren't present/aware. At least that was our experience. That's why priests insist on a pre-baptism meeting with the parents.

But I suspect the OP is less concerned about that really than the MIL being a total cowbag in general.

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Attilla unfortunately I come from a highly dysfunctional family myself, and know this behaviour all too well. I think this is why I'm struggling (and pointing out their potential good qualities): I had invested in the hope that DH's family would be the ones to provide our child with a sense of belonging to a wider family network, with the positive benefits that Conan come from that (if the family is not dysfunctional). Because the baby will have none of that from my side at all. I now see that it was a naive hope.

We have long been wary of her, yes. But this trip was the first time I've had the opportunity to observe how they are with their younger grandchildren, and we didn't like what we saw. We're under no illusions- if they're happy to bitch to us about those children, they'll be happy to bitch about our child. Unfortunately, the parents of the children in question seem to value the free babysitting too much to stop it.

And yes - we live in a different country from them. But we had been planning to increase visits significantly so that our child could feel part of his family and they could see him often. We're now reverse-ferreting on that, dramatically.

I suppose you're all right about unsupervised access. It's probably because they have so much one on one time with all their other grandchildren, I just assumed they'd get it with ours too, on visits. But no, it won't be happening.

We haven't written anything to her yet, as we're not quite home yet (travelling for a couple of days). As far as she's concerned it was a great visit, except the parts where we mysteriously got upset with her. Her husband is completely her enabler, yes. We've realised that she will never accept or understand our reasons for reducing contact - we will be cast in the roles of ungrateful son and unreasonable DIL. There's nothing we can do about that, so we just have to accept it.

It's just so sad.

*can come from that, not Conan

It's actually much easier to control and handle when you are visiting rather than living close and don't rely on them for anything.

Remember MIL is only one part of your extended families and whilst she may think she is the focus there are your child's aunts and uncles and cousins that your child could be building family ties with too so maybe focus on those bonds when visiting and looking at family dynamics too. Cousins can be very close so maybe don't write off making more trips just because of her.

pickwick I had the occasional glass with DS and have had one so far with this one - it was my birthday after all! Frankly I think you deserve one for not lamping your MIL!

Ok, so we wrote MIL an email jointly explaining our feelings. Just got a reply now. I expected to be upset by whatever she put in her reply and had tried to steel myself, but it was pretty low even by her standards.

There was a 'sincere' apology at the start. There then followed a long paragraph listing all her grievances against me. One was directed at DH, the rest were all squarely directed at me. These were:

• my 'revulsion' at her actions in the church upset her terribly. She implied that I owe her an apology for upsetting her in this way.

• 'no-one else would have taken exception to' what she did. I am the problem here. So much for the 'sincere apology', I guess?

• Lots of woundedness and guilt-tripping about how she and DH used to be able to talk about anything (until I came along and spoiled it).

• She fears for our baby because we didn't socialise enough with her and FIL, therefore we have social phobia. (We did socialise with them, but it is very stressful being around her, and her bullying of FIL is particularly awful to be around, so of course we found ourselves increasingly trying to spend time away from them).

• Some final tangential accusations about the way DH manages his finances.

The mail is then rounded off with a hope that we will accept her 'sincere apology'.

I know, I know that you can't argue with batshit, but I'm so upset. Probably my pregnancy hormones are making me more upset than I should be. I can't win with this: anything I say or don't say will show what a bitch I am for not accepting her 'sincere apology'. It's all very underhand, low-level nasty. But the way she has tried to turn the grabbing in the church around to say that she was hurt by my reaction and I should feel bad that I upset her? I find that very triggering. I'm guessing that's some serious gaslighting, is that the term?

Wow!

Thank her for her 'sincere' apology and ignore the rest. As you've said you can't reason with batshit so just keep your distance as much as you can, physically and emotionally!

Re the 'fearing for your baby' that would give me MASSIVE rage but I don't think any good will come from pulling her up on it, if she pushes just say you guys will do the worrying for and about your child or something?

She fears for our baby because we didn't socialise enough with her and FIL, therefore we have social phobia

I read all those sorts of threads with an open mouth. How do people write this sort of shit to relatives without thinking "do I perhaps look mad?"? (but, perhaps, not as mad as that correct but somehow entirely incorrect sequence of punctuation?) And how do people read it without laughing and then mocking the writer on every available occasion?

Writing it requires an almost complete absence of insight into how others see you, because someone with even minimal self-awareness would realise that anyone observing the exchange would think you a loon. And reading it without laughing requires taking absurdity seriously, in the manner of those occasions when someone tells you that the Queen is a lizard and you fear that laughing in their face may prolong an encounter better resolved by backing away and choosing better parties next time.

There's a dictum someone once told me that if you are ever tempted to write to a newspaper over your own name, write the letter, admire its wit and incision, imagine how people will be impressed by your insights into the matter at hand, and then don't send it, because people who write letters to newspapers are nutters. The same should apply to anyone crazy enough to think that an email enumerating their family's faults is going to do anything beyond making them look ludicrous.

If she believes strongly in the church then I'd ring up (or maybe email if you're no longer in the country) her local vicar or priest and explain your problems with her to him and see if he could have a word with her - and make her realise that what she did is just not on.

And then later on once the baby is born, to make her realise that she cannot just baptise the baby and get him to ratify the baptism! If she starts spouting about doing it, then I'd also be making murmurings about maybe getting it done yourselves, because I think (not really religious so don't know though, think I've seen it on here!) that you're only supposed to be baptised once, so when (!! ) you do it, you want it to be the proper one, that's your right as parents. And that she will be the one that goes to hell if she takes that away from you. And of course you know that you're not getting it done, just dragging the time out.

Maybe being shown up in front of the vicar/priest and being told off by him will actually stick more than you and your dh talking to her, if she really cares about her religion. If she cares for it as a way of controlling her life and others rather than the religion itself iyswim then she will probably carry on ignoring you but it might be worth a try and at least then you will know that the priest won't get pulled into baptising your baby without your agreement which will never happen.

No unsupervised access for her. End of story. You can't do anything else about her pushing her thoughts and beliefs on you. She sounds like a battleaxe.

You two have both come from dysfunctional families and appear pretty nice/normal. You'll never change his family, so let them get on with it and just bevoermanently too busy to visit or have visitors.

There's a great saying 'Friends are the family you choose for yourself' Save you time & energy for your friends and build your Friends-Family. Your child will be far better of with loving non-blood-family than with mad-blood-family.

Thanks everyone. Was feeling very raw and very sad yesterday evening, but my DH wrote and sent a really perfect response that had a lot of very nice and lovely things to say about me as a person, as a wife, and as a soon-to-be mother. He stood up for me totally, took none of her shit, and I'm so thankful. He also addressed the main point, that an apology is not sincere if you immediately start blaming the victim as soon as you've made it. He picked her up on a couple of other things and ignored the rest. She'll probably kick and scream in response to it yet again, but we've decided to just ignore the next installment of the melodrama. We want to get back to enjoying the last stage of my pregnancy, and not let her spoil it further.

And yes, Neckguard, the absence of insight is baffling, isn't it. I often wonder how it's possible to reach late adulthood and remain so un-self-aware.