MIL's behaviour, new baby

[MrsPickwick]

Hi. I'm not sure what to do about this or whether I'm overreacting and would appreciate some objective viewpoints.

DH and I have just returned from visiting his family. I'm six months pregnant with our first (and what will be his parents' sixth grandchild). It was quite a fraught / tense trip, because of MIL's controlling behaviour, but one thing in particular she did really disturbed me and upset us both.

We were briefly looking around an old church with DH's parents. MIL is quite religious, the rest of us are not. She knows our views on religion and is very aware that we don't want it being pushed on our child.

In the church, she suddenly grabbed me from behind, and held me while drawing the sign of the cross in holy water over my bump and saying 'god bless this baby'. I was completely caught off guard and couldn't stop her. I'm shocked that she would think it acceptable to do that to me against my will, and we now fear that if she's given unsupervised access to our baby a secret baptism will be performed.

There's background here - controlling, unpredictable behaviour that makes her stressful to be around, but DH and I now feel that we should think about how we can protect our kid from this sort of thing.

It's not even about the religion: it's the complete disregard for our feelings and for my bodily autonomy. I actually feel violated (it's so much worse than your average bump bothering). She attacked me from behind! DH and I both asked wtf she thought she was doing. At first she laughed it off and grabbed my belly again, then she said she 'thought we were Christian'. (Our dinner table discussions with her about our atheism and beliefs go back ten years: she was lying).

We already have some problems with how she and FIL relate to / talk about some of their other grandchildren, as an aside. They bitch about them openly, in front of them, and call them names, and make unfair comparisons with their other grandchildren). We're now considering what to do. We don't want her to come when the baby is born - I can imagine her grabbing him out of my arms whenever she feels like it, dousing him in holy water, shouting if we do something 'wrong', etc etc. FIL is afraid of her and no help at all here. What to do?

(She is capable of behaving well and can be very nice, as well, and is extremely emotionally invested in her family and grandchildren, obviously).

[Beanzmeanzcoffee]

Religion does funny things to some people as demonstrated by the number of rude 'what's the problem?' Type replies here. mrspickwick you have my sympathy. I worried about this during my first pregnancy (if I had to guess I'd wonder if you've got an Irish Catholic on your hands 😉). My MIL did baptise 2 of her grandchildren in her garden with some of her store cupboard of holy water. I had only just met my dh at the time and it seemed a funny story then but once I was pregnant it really started to weigh on me. Not because I worry about the significance of chucking a bit of water at them but the implication of lack of respect for the parents in making big decisions. Thankfully she is in other ways nice, and normal. Unfortunately the Catholic church here in Ireland have a massive hold on its congregation such that they believe literally in purgatory. We put our feet down and were quite clear our children weren't being baptised but still she has never had them alone. She only sounds about a quarter as batshit as yours though.

[MrsPickwick]

*at the risk of sounding like I'm the crazy one, that should say

[MrsPickwick]

Thank you all. At this of sounding like I'm the crazy one here after all, I just had the first panic attack of my pregnancy, and am starting to worry about what all this is doing to my baby.

Long story short, my mother is staying with us this week - she cat sat for us while we were away visiting PILs. As I said my family is dysfunctional too, but I have grown a carapace that allows me to be around her for fixed periods of time. She has Paranoid Personality Disorder among other things, which made my childhood and teens (and twenties for that matter) difficult. I have been NC with her before but don't feel that is the right thing for me atm.

She just said something very minor, but from the paranoid place, and I slammed doors and started hyperventilating. It's because any reminder of her disorder, however small, brings a lifetime's worth of bad shit flooding back to me. In the context of the current situation with MIL, I just snapped. All my coping mechanisms - both healthy and unhealthy - are unavailable to me during pregnancy, so I really badly need to be alone. It's funny how I was incredibly happy, calm and relaxed throughout the pregnancy, then I see family and whoops, the baby gets his first experience of panic attacks, stress and crying The poor mite must wonder what's hit him.

[HooseRice]

Neckguard your post completely resonates with me. I'm over 3 years NC with a parent who continues to do the poor me I don't see my grandchildren act while minimising their violence and abuse towards me. They only make half hearted attempts to see the GC by emailing all family members usually around an occasion (in order to make it about them).

Sorry for hijack.

OP what your MIL did was batshit. When your baby arrives I suggest your ILs see him/her at your place. Obv you won't be leaving your child with them. I tend to agree with PP that religious batshittery is on the whole harmless to a teeny child who won't understand anyway.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Mrs P,

re your comment:-
"And yes, Neckguard, the absence of insight is baffling, isn't it. I often wonder how it's possible to reach late adulthood and remain so un-self-aware".

Its because your MIL is dysfunctional and a narcissist. This is what such disordered people are like.

Would second the suggestion to keep off all social media. You do not need that anyway.

I would not have personally replied to her poisonous missive; to such people like his mother the response is the reward. The response is what they want and your H has given her that.

You can bet your bottom dollar that she will now bother you even more because her son's response (and no matter how nicely its been written she will see it as an attack on her and will respond in kind) as an "in". Not replying is a powerful response in its own right.

Ultimately you as a family unit will need to be in no contact with his parents. They were not good parents to your H and they will not be ideal as grandparents figures either. Such disordered people tend to over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild. Her H is really her hatchet man as well as enabler here and cannot be at all relied upon either. Such weak men as well often need someone like MIL to also idolise.

[CalmItKermitt]

Just taking the baptism thing in isolation - I'd be tempted to let her get on with it if it's true that anyone who believes can do it.

I've got no time for religion or any other type of woo so to me it would be the same as her saying a prayer to the Chief Unicorn and dabbing a bit of Fairy Water on the baby; ie batshit but harmless.

[NeckguardUnbespoke]

As is often remarked, over on Gransnet there are interminable threads ("cut out of their lives pt 49324") in which women you would cross the M6 to avoid complain that their evil children won't let them see their angelic grandchildren, when even a moment's reading shows you that the people complaining are raging narcissists. Endlessly, tediously, they don't just want to see their grandchildren, they want their evil children to admit that they were wrong in every way and come crawling back begging forgiveness. They deny that problems are problems because they don't think they are problems, so they won't listen to their children until their children say "I was wrong about everything". Meanwhile, in the child's house, they're happily getting on with their lives without the crazy madpeople demanding 24x7 pandering.

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

[NicknameUsed]

She doesn't need to know when you go into labour, and therefore doesn't need to be told immediately when the baby is born, so you should be able to get a few days' grace there. Just don't post anything on social media.

[MrsPickwick]

We're not entirely off the hook of course - we have the melodrama over the lack of immediate invitation to see the new baby to look forward to, and the massive fall out we can expect from that. Yay! But for now, deep breaths.

[MrsPickwick]

Thanks everyone. Was feeling very raw and very sad yesterday evening, but my DH wrote and sent a really perfect response that had a lot of very nice and lovely things to say about me as a person, as a wife, and as a soon-to-be mother. He stood up for me totally, took none of her shit, and I'm so thankful. He also addressed the main point, that an apology is not sincere if you immediately start blaming the victim as soon as you've made it. He picked her up on a couple of other things and ignored the rest. She'll probably kick and scream in response to it yet again, but we've decided to just ignore the next installment of the melodrama. We want to get back to enjoying the last stage of my pregnancy, and not let her spoil it further.

And yes, Neckguard, the absence of insight is baffling, isn't it. I often wonder how it's possible to reach late adulthood and remain so un-self-aware.

[ExtraHotLatteToGo]

You two have both come from dysfunctional families and appear pretty nice/normal. You'll never change his family, so let them get on with it and just bevoermanently too busy to visit or have visitors.

There's a great saying 'Friends are the family you choose for yourself' Save you time & energy for your friends and build your Friends-Family. Your child will be far better of with loving non-blood-family than with mad-blood-family.

[SandyY2K]

No unsupervised access for her. End of story. You can't do anything else about her pushing her thoughts and beliefs on you. She sounds like a battleaxe.

[confuugled1]

If she believes strongly in the church then I'd ring up (or maybe email if you're no longer in the country) her local vicar or priest and explain your problems with her to him and see if he could have a word with her - and make her realise that what she did is just not on.

And then later on once the baby is born, to make her realise that she cannot just baptise the baby and get him to ratify the baptism! If she starts spouting about doing it, then I'd also be making murmurings about maybe getting it done yourselves, because I think (not really religious so don't know though, think I've seen it on here!) that you're only supposed to be baptised once, so when (!! ) you do it, you want it to be the proper one, that's your right as parents. And that she will be the one that goes to hell if she takes that away from you. And of course you know that you're not getting it done, just dragging the time out.

Maybe being shown up in front of the vicar/priest and being told off by him will actually stick more than you and your dh talking to her, if she really cares about her religion. If she cares for it as a way of controlling her life and others rather than the religion itself iyswim then she will probably carry on ignoring you but it might be worth a try and at least then you will know that the priest won't get pulled into baptising your baby without your agreement which will never happen.

[NeckguardUnbespoke]

She fears for our baby because we didn't socialise enough with her and FIL, therefore we have social phobia

I read all those sorts of threads with an open mouth. How do people write this sort of shit to relatives without thinking "do I perhaps look mad?"? (but, perhaps, not as mad as that correct but somehow entirely incorrect sequence of punctuation?) And how do people read it without laughing and then mocking the writer on every available occasion?

Writing it requires an almost complete absence of insight into how others see you, because someone with even minimal self-awareness would realise that anyone observing the exchange would think you a loon. And reading it without laughing requires taking absurdity seriously, in the manner of those occasions when someone tells you that the Queen is a lizard and you fear that laughing in their face may prolong an encounter better resolved by backing away and choosing better parties next time.

There's a dictum someone once told me that if you are ever tempted to write to a newspaper over your own name, write the letter, admire its wit and incision, imagine how people will be impressed by your insights into the matter at hand, and then don't send it, because people who write letters to newspapers are nutters. The same should apply to anyone crazy enough to think that an email enumerating their family's faults is going to do anything beyond making them look ludicrous.

[DartmoorDoughnut]

Wow!

Thank her for her 'sincere' apology and ignore the rest. As you've said you can't reason with batshit so just keep your distance as much as you can, physically and emotionally!

Re the 'fearing for your baby' that would give me MASSIVE rage but I don't think any good will come from pulling her up on it, if she pushes just say you guys will do the worrying for and about your child or something?

[MrsPickwick]

Ok, so we wrote MIL an email jointly explaining our feelings. Just got a reply now. I expected to be upset by whatever she put in her reply and had tried to steel myself, but it was pretty low even by her standards.

There was a 'sincere' apology at the start. There then followed a long paragraph listing all her grievances against me. One was directed at DH, the rest were all squarely directed at me. These were:

• my 'revulsion' at her actions in the church upset her terribly. She implied that I owe her an apology for upsetting her in this way.
  

• 'no-one else would have taken exception to' what she did. I am the problem here. So much for the 'sincere apology', I guess?
  

• Lots of woundedness and guilt-tripping about how she and DH used to be able to talk about anything (until I came along and spoiled it).
  

• She fears for our baby because we didn't socialise enough with her and FIL, therefore we have social phobia. (We did socialise with them, but it is very stressful being around her, and her bullying of FIL is particularly awful to be around, so of course we found ourselves increasingly trying to spend time away from them).
  

• Some final tangential accusations about the way DH manages his finances.
  

The mail is then rounded off with a hope that we will accept her 'sincere apology'.

I know, I know that you can't argue with batshit, but I'm so upset. Probably my pregnancy hormones are making me more upset than I should be. I can't win with this: anything I say or don't say will show what a bitch I am for not accepting her 'sincere apology'. It's all very underhand, low-level nasty. But the way she has tried to turn the grabbing in the church around to say that she was hurt by my reaction and I should feel bad that I upset her? I find that very triggering. I'm guessing that's some serious gaslighting, is that the term?

[DartmoorDoughnut]

pickwick I had the occasional glass with DS and have had one so far with this one - it was my birthday after all! Frankly I think you deserve one for not lamping your MIL!

[trafalgargal]

It's actually much easier to control and handle when you are visiting rather than living close and don't rely on them for anything.

Remember MIL is only one part of your extended families and whilst she may think she is the focus there are your child's aunts and uncles and cousins that your child could be building family ties with too so maybe focus on those bonds when visiting and looking at family dynamics too. Cousins can be very close so maybe don't write off making more trips just because of her.

[MrsPickwick]

*can come from that, not Conan

[MrsPickwick]

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Attilla unfortunately I come from a highly dysfunctional family myself, and know this behaviour all too well. I think this is why I'm struggling (and pointing out their potential good qualities): I had invested in the hope that DH's family would be the ones to provide our child with a sense of belonging to a wider family network, with the positive benefits that Conan come from that (if the family is not dysfunctional). Because the baby will have none of that from my side at all. I now see that it was a naive hope.

We have long been wary of her, yes. But this trip was the first time I've had the opportunity to observe how they are with their younger grandchildren, and we didn't like what we saw. We're under no illusions- if they're happy to bitch to us about those children, they'll be happy to bitch about our child. Unfortunately, the parents of the children in question seem to value the free babysitting too much to stop it.

And yes - we live in a different country from them. But we had been planning to increase visits significantly so that our child could feel part of his family and they could see him often. We're now reverse-ferreting on that, dramatically.

I suppose you're all right about unsupervised access. It's probably because they have so much one on one time with all their other grandchildren, I just assumed they'd get it with ours too, on visits. But no, it won't be happening.

We haven't written anything to her yet, as we're not quite home yet (travelling for a couple of days). As far as she's concerned it was a great visit, except the parts where we mysteriously got upset with her. Her husband is completely her enabler, yes. We've realised that she will never accept or understand our reasons for reducing contact - we will be cast in the roles of ungrateful son and unreasonable DIL. There's nothing we can do about that, so we just have to accept it.

It's just so sad.

[ElspethFlashman]

I imagine the MIL will be sprinkling holy water on the kid for years to come.

But that's likely all they'll be able to do. In the (modern) Catholic Church for example the priests see baptism as a commitment from the parents to the child as much as anything. The parents have to promise to guide the child in the church etc. Without the parents being present it's only half done, cos there's no guarantee that the child will actually be raised in Christ if the resident cargivers aren't present/aware. At least that was our experience. That's why priests insist on a pre-baptism meeting with the parents.

But I suspect the OP is less concerned about that really than the MIL being a total cowbag in general.

[trafalgargal]

OP talks of a trip visiting ILs so it doesn't sound like they are local especially if they went sightseeing.
Doesn't sound like they see them very often. Maybe often enough to teach the dc that different people have differing beliefs and all should be respected ( to me a ranting atheist is as much of a PITA as a ranting believer) but realistically why would a non local grandparent have unsupervised access anyway it doesn't happen unless the parents organize it that way.

With five other grandchildren to share the load the OP has little to worry about as if granny doesn't have free access there's little she can do and other gc to spout her views to more easily.

Obviously family days out to churches with granny should be avoided but I'd be far angrier about inappropriate touching than any ritual which is without meaning as the OP has a different belief system .

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Mrs P

What Isetan wrote.

You do realise that controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour; such actions are rooted in power and control.

You likely come from an emotionally healthy family where this type of dysfunction is thankfully unknown so it is hard to get your head around. Your H has not been so lucky and he may also still have a lot of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) when it comes to his toxic mother.

His mother will not apologise to you (she really does feel she has done nothing wrong here) or if she does it will not be meant; it may well be along the lines of the, "well I'm sorry you feel that way" sort of (non) apology.

Mrs P; your H and your good self will need to toughen up far more when it comes to his mother/your MIL respectively. I would not see her at all now nor put your child anywhere near her to be honest. She is toxic and untrustworthy; you have already seen numerous red flags re her and her (enabler) H re their grandchildren. This part of your initial post in particular should have made you both wary of her anyway long before now:-

"We already have some problems with how she and FIL relate to / talk about some of their other grandchildren, as an aside. They bitch about them openly, in front of them, and call them names, and make unfair comparisons with their other grandchildren"

The above is a huge red flag. Do not think they will not do that to your child as well. Protect your child from such people like his mother and enabler dad (he should not be let off the hook here because he cannot be relied upon).

Re an earler comment you made:-
It certainly is a dysfunctional family dynamic, but there are many good qualities too.

What good qualities are you referring to here? The inherent dysfunction in your H's family of origin cancels out any good qualities.

Such people do not change, all you can change is how you react to them. You both need to up your game here. Your H here is also key; is he fully on your side here and does he fully accept that his parents are not ideal to be with at all. She was not a good parent to your H, she will not be a decent grandparent figure to your child. She is also not at all accepting or respectful of your atheist views and will never accept that either. Past behaviour has already shown that neither she and her H are good grandparent figures.

Do read the Stately Homes and batshit threads; it is true that you cannot communicate with batshit.




You both need to take heed.

[NicknameUsed]

"Apparently yes, priests can endorse secret baptisms or lay baptisms at their discretion"

What kind of religion does this? I struggle to believe that this could happen. I'm C of E BTW and I can't imagine that our vicar would even consider doing anything like this.

I don't think it will be that easy for your MIL to have unsupervised access to your child. Make other childcare arrangements for if and when you need it and make sure you are there when your MIL wants to see your baby.