Very low contact with parents and struggling a bit - reassurance please from people in similar situations!

[Lottapianos]

Brief background - narcissistic, engulfing parents who don't do 'independent' or 'different'. Grew up never being allowed to have feelings of my own. Used as marriage counsellor / emotional dumping ground by mother since age 10 / 11. Have struggled with depression and anxiety since forever. Spent 6 years in therapy.

I have been very low contact with my parents for several years now - no phonecalls, text / WhatsApp once or twice a month, see them about once a year (they live in a different country). They never visit me. I very slowly realised through therapy that they were toxic and emotionally harmful. The process of separating and detaching from them emotionally has been excruciating, and I have been deep in grief for the past few years. Every time I see them (not often), I come away feeling drained, scared, depressed and grieving all over again for the relationship I thought I had with them.

I'm coming out the other side of the grief and I have periods where not being in touch with them very much really does feel 'ok'. The situation will never be what I would like it to be, but it honestly does feel ok at times. I remind myself of the awful things they have said and done, remind myself of the psychological effect they have on me, remind myself that there is nothing wrong with wanting to protect and take care of myself. And yet..........

I'm feeling guilty again. Feeling like I 'should' visit them. Like I 'should' be in touch more often. I find myself worrying about them. And then I remind myself that they are adults, in good health, with no financial worries, and they know where I am. I have never not been welcoming when they have visited in the past. So why should I be taking on all of the responsibility etc etc etc

So I'm stuck playing ping pong with myself again! Back and forth between guilt and strength. Its exhausting and I'm tired of thinking about them all the time. Please share any words of strength and wisdom from your own experiences. I know that feelings going up and down is a normal part of this process but I'm really struggling right now

[Hope34]

Good Afternoon All

I am holding my handbag tight and its zipped and there no way jelly shall get in- love this analogy too.

I am aiming for NC but at present have LC, I may never get to NC as my mother has just started stalking me.

I have deleted the family Whats app group and shall block Skype...thank goodness I never did Facebook. I now know after 40 plus years things won't change and I am no longer going to be there source of amusement(my sister and mother bitch and make faces about me when I am nearby - recently this is because I would not take home birthday cake to my house from theirs- I know I should have just taken it and dumped it, but my guard was down and I forgot )

Itsa I too never discuss this in detail with friends....probably because its exhausting, and I put on a front, but at least now they know that my family aren't there for me and I don't totally lie like before. My close friends know I am having counselling.

Runrabbit- I love the lines you have for dealing with others...I shall use some of those

[Onthewingofaswift]

Ive been stepping back this week, thinking a lot, reading a lot and reflecting on my childhood and my own perspectives. After feeling blindsided, Ive done loads of reading about NPD: thank you for those people who recommended websites, Ive looked at them all.

Ive learned over the years its a futile event waiting for my mum to have a normal reaction to any news. Lotta, my mum says the "oh right" or "oh" to pretty much everything me or my brother says to her, then changes the subject to her. Today I sometime amuse myself by telling her news "I may be made redundant" to get the "oh right, its been a lovely day here and I went to the shop" response

Many years ago, in my thirties I had cancer: I told my mother who said, as per any news "oh right" followed by "I think most cancer is curable" then she decided to visit and spend a few days at our house which was very stressful because as always conversation was based on her, her feelings, her opinions. Bizarrely my cancer never came up her conversation, she never asked a single question about it. It made for a very awkward time, me sitting there post mastectomy, pre chemo...my mother yapping about everything and yet never once mentioning the cancer.

And she has never mentioned it since. Never asked about follow ups, never asks how I am, nothing. However, to people in the street, people she meets its all "my daughter had cancer" to get the attention she needs for her own validation.
Stupidly I believed people when they told me she doesn't talk about it because its too painful for her, and I actually felt for her feeling this "pain": Now I know, she didn't mention it because she is narcissistic, emotionally unable and unable to express any kind of normal reaction.
I was always bewildered that my mother could not react at all to show any concerns to me, yet show great emotion to other people about my cancer but I can see its text book NPD behaviour.

I then had 12 hour reconstruction surgery. Again never mentioned.

Many years later, she decided to tell me during an argument (me challenging her) that she did all she could when I had cancer, she did her best by putting money into my bank account because she knows cancer is caused by stress and I had a high credit card bill at the time. At the time she never told me about this money, and I hadn't noticed. But true to form, she brings it up years later.

Recently she has taken to telling me she has spent more money on me than my brother. I just nod.

Accepting this is it is the journey I am on at the moment. Sometimes she will talk about her family in a rose coloured way, particularly how close she was to her brother, how kind he was, how grateful I should be because he brought me up when my dad worked overseas for some years. Yet I found him to be very critical, judgemental and shamy. He would always comment negatively about my weight, minimise my achievements, tell me I needed to buy drinks for people in the pub and his acceptance of me was based around my weight. My mother refuses to listen to this, preferring instead to tell me he was very kind and should be grateful he brought me up.

Its only recently I have become aware I have been emotionally abused. Like many others I have felt it was my fault, I needed to be better, I should have been thinner.
I would love to have a relationship with my mother based on normal activity such as spending time together, her being interested but I know that isnt possible. But I am ok. I have built up my esteem and I know i am the things she isnt; I am compassionate, reliable, enquiring and I am open to feedback. I still have enormous issues expressing my desires and wants even when it comes to a hug from my partner. Ugliness has been ingrained deeply into my mind from past criticism, and my desire to shrink away is still there.

[Onthewingofaswift]

Itsa: same here, I never discuss with friends. I have got worn down by them saying "your mum is so friendly, funny, lovely...and of course she is old" I have one friend who I minimise contact with who has a large loving extended family and likes to talk at length about them, generalising all families are the same. Many a time on trying to broach the subject I get shut down so I dont bring it up. I do feel isolated from time to time.

[cinammontwist]

Thanks Midnight - that's exactly it. Those 'throwaway' comments are part of a much bigger narrative which has formed my truth about me and my life. Love the analogy of speaking Swedish tomorrow.

Also love the jelly analogy.

Massive bunch of to everyone battling on this thread. Thanks lotta for starting it.

[TheBananaFaceOfEvil]

Hi Lotta and everyone. It's great to find this thread. I've had hardly any contact with my dad for just over a year.

My parents are divorced. Both remarried (my dad to the OW). Our relationship hasn't been great since the split. I've had ups and downs with my mum too (like an earlier poster, she used me as a confidante during the split, which caused me a lot of grief - I was only 18 and in the throes of my first breakup myself). But my dad has behaved oddly towards me for a long while and has shown a marked preference for my brother.

It came to a head when he didn't contact me at all on Christmas Day two years ago. We were due to visit two days later. They both acted like they didn't want us there. Didn't take a single photo of the kids (DS2 was 9mo, it was the first time he'd met my SM or been to their house). No food on offer. It was really upsetting, and after that I decided to detach for a while and not go out of my way to contact him. Of course this backfired because he made no effort to contact me, which meant we barely spoke all last year. In the runup to Christmas I got very low, anxious and panicky. He ignored me again on Christmas Day and sent me a shitty, hostile message the next day when I asked whether he'd got my messages.

I saw him at my brother's birthday party in January and hoped we could turn over a new leaf, but then he completely ignored a message I sent him to thank him for DS2's birthday present. I spoke to my brother about it and he said he didn't like text messages because they're 'impersonal'. When I questioned whether this was good reason to ignore a message from one's daughter, he exploded and said he was sick of being put in the middle between me and my dad

On my birthday from my dad I got a card and a post on my Facebook wall. No present (big deal in our family. I don't care about presents, it's more the signal it gives not to give one IYSWIM).

This is after years of weird behaviour (eg leaving my wedding at 6pm because he had to go and feed his cats).

Like you, I feel intense grief. Tiny things send me into a downward spiral. Seeing ads for Father's Day at the moment is so painful, it sets off a sort of panicky feeling.

I've been diagnosed with moderate depression (I have health problems as well ATM) and I'm starting CBT next week. I wanted counselling but CBT was all I could get.

Sorry, I'm sure you didn't start this thread to hear long stories like this, but just wanted to say you're not alone. I know exactly how you feel. The guilt, the grief. It's overpowering.

[SeaEagleFeather]

banana ... if there's two things I've learned the hard way, it's these:

1 - you can't force a close relationship with someone who doesn't want one

2 - Nothing, nothing is worth walking on eggshells with someone who really, when it comes down to it, doesn't like you very much or doesn't want much to do with you.

I really am sorry; it hurts like holy hell. But I believe that it's healthier to acknowledge how much YOU want the relationship, and then to grieve the loss of your father that you want so much. It's more complicated than if they had just died, though just as painful really (speaking from experience there)

[FrothyBubbles]

Oh Sea what considerate, thoughtful advice. Albeit painful to acknowledge.

[Mummyof02]

Hi lotta, just read your post and I just want to say you are not alone Hun. I'm 19 and barely ever see my parents or family too and it is hard to cope with especially if you sometimes feel unloved by them or drained or sad by them but I guess sometimes you got to remember is that if your family make you feel that down or guilty as they are always expecting you to get in touch with them rather then it be being mutual then their the ones in the wrong, not you! And if it feels ok to not always see them so often or even that much at all , then that's okay too don't feel guilty for something that is not your fault in the slightest , you have to do what feels right for you and what's going to make you happy and no one would blame you, God bless

[TheBananaFaceOfEvil]

Thank you SeaEagleFeather

[Lottapianos]

Lovely post Sea and I'm going to try to remember it next time I have a wobble, which coincidentally is now!

The FOG is so goddamn hard to shake off. Feeling very griefy at the moment. I feel like I need a good sob and may have to schedule one for later today

[SeaEagleFeather]

(namechange from Meerka/once a meer btw lotta :) Had an encounter with a sea eagle that was just amazing)

behind you all the way

[Lottapianos]

Hi everyone, how are we all doing today?

For the past week, I have actually been worrying about Christmas. Christmas! In June!!!! Do I visit my parents, do I not visit my parents, can I deal with the guilt of not visiting them for the third year in a row, should we visit my in laws instead (an equally awful experience), what about this, what about that, and WHY WHY WHY am I thinking about all of this NOW??! Round and round in my head. I'm also stressed out about when to visit my sister who's pregnant. I'm feeling really tired at the moment and just can't seem to get enough sleep - probably the anxiety. Its driving me nuts.

I'm talking to myself rationally and reminding myself that I don't have to make a decision about these things now, its just the FOG etc etc etc but on and on the thoughts go. Its so exhausting. Yet again I find myself wishing for a family where things run more or less smoothly and don't take up what feels like 90% of my waking thoughts

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Lotta

Maybe this has popped into your head now because it will be your sister's child's first Christmas. The mind is indeed a powerful organ.

Give your own self permission not to do your own thing at Christmas and not bother with either your parents or awful ILs. You really do not have to bother with any of them, no-one should spend any time with toxic relations let alone at Christmas out of some misplaced sense of familial obligation or guilt (the FOG again).

(I have already solved the Christmas problem by being abroad for the duration of the festivities).

I am going to be abroad this Christmas and I am very much looking forward to that.

[Lottapianos]

You might be right Attila, although I usually do start worrying about Christmas in July Visiting my sister for Christmas is not an option - she is due end of November and has banned everyone from visiting for at least a month after that (suits me fine!). The dilemma is whether I visit before baby is born and again afterwards, or just visit early next year after baby comes. I'm leaning towards the latter option.

Thank you for the self confidence boost. Sometimes I feel very strongly that it is totally fine not to do the happy families thing at Christmas and that I owe them nothing, then sometimes the guilt feels too strong. Just part of grieving I guess.

Good for you going abroad, making sure you can suit yourself and have a lovely time

[Lottapianos]

Sister lives in the Middle East by the way, so visiting is A Big Trip and not just a matter of hopping on a train or whatever!

[cinammontwist]

Oh you have NO obligation to be around at Christmas. At all! I second the option of being abroad. Just do it.

[Lottapianos]

Thanks Cinnamon how are things with you?

[cinammontwist]

Hi Lotta - it's my Dad's birthday on Sunday so I know will need to phone him tomorrow (allowing for the time difference). The FOG is continuing it's creeping and I'm preparing myself mentally for talking to him again. Probably it will be the best thing and will get rid of any FOG when I realise the effect he has on me, which is what usually happens. Worst case scenario he is uncharacteristically open and actually listens to anything I say, because then the guilt really will kick in.

I am still so sad and rather angry that I just don't have a relationship with him. Or my mother really. It's just not fair and life is a lot harder as a result.

On the plus side, it's Friday!

[Cathpot]

I hope you all don't mind if I ask for some advice . I sometimes read these threads because I have a friend whose mother (and father before he died) is awful to her. I come from a standard issue family and things she says to me that her mother has said or done astonish and appall me. I think it helps her a bit to see my reaction but I do feel a bit helpless and unsure of how to support her to move forward . She has - due to having spent her childhood being told how useless and unattractive etc she is- married an emotionally (and on at least 3 occasions physically ) abusive man. She is an only child and all her family relationships are dysfunctional apart from with her kids. She is a lovely warm kind woman, good company and full of empathy for others. I just want to pluck her out of it all and make her see she would be so much happier away from her husband ( they work in the same department as well) but she seems paralysed to make a move. It's 15 years since he first hit her and we are still having the same conversations. Her children witness his nastiness to her all the time and her mother's too ( she said she had bought a top at a particular shop and her mum said - I didn't think you could shop there, I didn't think they did fat sizes- it's this sort of thing relentlessly ). I think her lack of confidence to leave her marriage is all down to how her parents destroyed her self worth and if she had more insight into that she might start to see her options? I hear people talking about the toxic parents book- should I buy it for her? Is that too pushy? Should I point her towards threads on mumsnet? It's so frustrating watching her cope with it all without being able to help her, or make her believe that actually she is lovely and she is worthy of being treated properly. Any thoughts or insights would be welcome.

[springydaffs]

To answer your initial q, I accept it now. I'm late 50s, had a lot of therapy, read a lot of books...

The way I see it is is like material wealth: some people have a lot of it, some don't. I don't have parental /family love. So that's that.

Swift I also had BC recently and my parents barely acknowledged it. Such a headfuck eh. I do see my parents but they are duty calls and I keep my eye on the clock. Sometimes the visit is 5 minutes bcs that's all I can cope with.

I also, if I'm honest, keep my eye on another clock: they are absolutely ancient and are lasting a surprisingly long time

Re spending time with Happy Families - well, I steer clear of those. Just like I steer clear of people who are very wealthy. My oncologist was very kind to me. He came from a culture that is strong on family and in the end I couldn't cope with his family 'wealth' which pumped off him - he was so rich with it iyswim - that I gradually started seeing another oncologist (a young woman, we were much more equal if that makes sense). I don't need it in my face, especially at such a vulnerable time.

My dad have me some money for home improvements while I was ill. I was amazed! It was the first thing he'd ever given me! Then it turns out he has already arranged for the amount to be deducted from my inheritance. It also wasn't enough money for the work I needed so I had to choose which was the most important. The blanket was too short for the bed as the good book says.

I kind of resolutely accept this has been my lot. I know that I know this has nothing to do with me; that they are damaged, emotionally cauterised, selfish, unkind people. I neither pity them nor hate them. I drew the short straw on the parent front.

As for 'revenge is a life well lived' - sometimes we are so damaged we can't live well. And that's OK, too.

[springydaffs]

Do look out for and devour all the literature etc out there on toxic parents /families. Go to all the support groups. Read up about narcissism. Imo not all are bone fide (sp) narcissists (ie with NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder) but have narcissistic qualities on a spectrum. For a while host of reasons. I married a true narc and although my parents are narcissistic they are not full -on Narcs.

Have a look at Melanie Tonia Evans who writes well about healing from narcissistic abuse (she focuses on narcissistic abuse in romantic relationships but she knows her stuff and is a good resource).

Read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. A must.

[springydaffs]

Stand Alone is a good org for family estrangement. Hang on, I'll get a link - nope can't find it (on phone sorry) but try standalone.org.uk.

They have workshops next w/e - c&p

Registration will close on Sunday 19th June at midnight
Workshop: The Process of Change
Therapist: Simon Campbell
June 25th and 26th 2016
12.30-4.30pm
London

This workshop focusses on managing change in relation to family estrangement

How can we grow, flourish and thrive, rather than merely survive? How we can invest time in ourselves to keep us moving in the right direction, whatever, wherever that may be?

This workshop encourages us as participants to explore what change has and will look like; what stops us from changing; what makes us struck; what is important in our lives; what is missing in our lives. As well as seeking to discover how flexible or rigid we are when it comes to our thoughts, feelings and actions.

Part of this session will allow time to explore our own approach to tackling our problems. We will explore the role of a detective and find out how we could some of their skills and methods and attitudes to help us with our own self-detective work.

What will the afternoon look like?

We will start with a 1.5 hour support group for you to share your family estrangement experiences. We will then move on to bite-sized therapeutic ideas, exercises, case studies and discussions - so that each participant has the opportunity to make connections with these concepts and apply them to their own lives and their own circumstances.

What if people judge me?

These workshops are informative and informal, respectful and non-judgmental. There is no right or wrong & there is nothing expected of you as a participant. They are designed for people who wish to: improve their wellbeing; increase their awareness; reflect on their pathway in life; and generally discover what makes them tick.

Do I need experience of therapy to take part?

To attend these workshops you do not need to be academically clever, nor do you need to have had 3 years of intensive therapy. Instead, curiosity and a willingness to try and be open and honest with your ‘self’ are the only requirements.

Where and when?

Saturday 25th June and Sunday 26th June 2016.
12.30-4.30pm

Saturday 25th: This workshop if for parents who are estranged from their adult children and/or grandchildren
Sunday 26th: This workshop is for adult children who are estranged from their parents and/or siblings

These workshops are held in a wellbeing centre in London near Old Street, N1. We won't be giving out the full address until one week prior to the workshop to those who register.

[Cathpot]

Thank you l will look at those resources. Do you think it's ok for me to try prompt her on this way? Would you have wanted pushing from a friend? I think she justifiably thinks on some level that I can't really understand what it's like for her or why it's so hard to see a way out. I think maybe I need to pick my moment next time she opens up and point her towards people who do conpletely 'get it ' and from whom she would be more likely to take advice?

[Cathpot]

Sorry for thread hijack incidentally it's just your stories are very like hers in many ways and I don't know what to do for the best.

[springydaffs]

My posts were for everyone in general because your friend is in a domestic abuse situation and the resources are different for that. Eg Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That is a must. Also she could contact Women's Aid national helpline 0808 2000 247 or her local Women's Aid as lines are busy on the helpline. All anonymous of she would prefer.

In my experience it wasn't until I left my abusive relationship that I went into therapy and the whole sorry story unfolded: it was no surprise I married an abuser because abuse was all I knew from my family as I was growing up.