Very low contact with parents and struggling a bit - reassurance please from people in similar situations!

[Lottapianos]

Brief background - narcissistic, engulfing parents who don't do 'independent' or 'different'. Grew up never being allowed to have feelings of my own. Used as marriage counsellor / emotional dumping ground by mother since age 10 / 11. Have struggled with depression and anxiety since forever. Spent 6 years in therapy.

I have been very low contact with my parents for several years now - no phonecalls, text / WhatsApp once or twice a month, see them about once a year (they live in a different country). They never visit me. I very slowly realised through therapy that they were toxic and emotionally harmful. The process of separating and detaching from them emotionally has been excruciating, and I have been deep in grief for the past few years. Every time I see them (not often), I come away feeling drained, scared, depressed and grieving all over again for the relationship I thought I had with them.

I'm coming out the other side of the grief and I have periods where not being in touch with them very much really does feel 'ok'. The situation will never be what I would like it to be, but it honestly does feel ok at times. I remind myself of the awful things they have said and done, remind myself of the psychological effect they have on me, remind myself that there is nothing wrong with wanting to protect and take care of myself. And yet..........

I'm feeling guilty again. Feeling like I 'should' visit them. Like I 'should' be in touch more often. I find myself worrying about them. And then I remind myself that they are adults, in good health, with no financial worries, and they know where I am. I have never not been welcoming when they have visited in the past. So why should I be taking on all of the responsibility etc etc etc

So I'm stuck playing ping pong with myself again! Back and forth between guilt and strength. Its exhausting and I'm tired of thinking about them all the time. Please share any words of strength and wisdom from your own experiences. I know that feelings going up and down is a normal part of this process but I'm really struggling right now

[Lottapianos]

Thank you for sharing this Sea. I very much recognise the contrast between the expectations of the parent contrasted with the efforts they have put in to actually get to know their child. I feel that, in general, my parents see me as 'daughter' rather than 'Lotta' and their main priority in the relationship is getting their own needs met. I also think this is not conscious on their part, but it's still dysfunctional and terribly damaging.

I very much agree with him that the child in the relationship should always be the one who is protected and taken care of by the parent, rather than the other way around. Quite a few parents just don't seem to be able to manage this. I could scream when I hear platitudes like 'parents will do anything for their children '. It's simply not the case for everyone

[SeaEagleFeather]

lotte Ive been looking for this for a bit ... it's a quote from a book written in 1891, well over 100 years ago now:

"Filial obligation is a point upon which those parents lay the heaviest stress who have done the least to develop the relation between them and their child. The firswt duty is from the parent to the child : this unfulfilled, the duty of the child remains untaught"

Old fashioned language, but all those people who go on about their children owing them? a very old fashioned strict man more than a hundred years ago knew that the parent had to be loving towards the child, and that the parents who were least loving were the ones who demanded most.

I dunno; it's helped me a lot with a strict and unloving father who expects me to jump when he deigns to notice me at all. Thought maybe it might help you a bit too.

[Lottapianos]

Soul sisters sounds good to me

[cinammontwist]

Oh Lotta I completely get it. I have always been an extension of my father - to the point where he rarely uses my name but calls me 'daughter'. Finding out who I am is an ongoing process in so many different areas of my life. Keep at it - you're worth it too! I think you're my soul sister (smile)

[Lottapianos]

4 years old. It's horrendous, isnt it? You grow up believing at a very deep level that your parents and their needs must come first and that you're not allowed to have any needs of your own. During the process of detaching in therapy, I honestly felt like I almost didn't exist because who was I if I wasn't an extension of my parents anymore?! It's so damaging and so toxic.

Keep going with your great work, you're worth it

[cinammontwist]

Lotta - that is exactly it. The first time I recall feeling responsible for Dad's emotions was around 4 years old. That's why it's so challenging to detach, because I feel such a great responsibility for him. It's incredibly unhealthy and codependent but I'm gradually getting there.

Hugs and support to everyone who is finding Father's Day tough. All those pictures and posts to these amazing fathers can be heartbreaking if yours wasn't like that.

[Lottapianos]

Springydaffs, I always enjoy your posts so much. I really like your idea of being wealthy in different areas of your life. Some people have loads of family 'wealth' - we don't but it helps to think of the areas of my life where I am very wealthy indeed, where I have riches that many people could only dream of. Thank you for that

Well done cinnamon and I'm so glad that you were able to have a pleasant conversation with your dad today. Do you feel that he's incapable of functioning as the parent in your relationship and that his neediness means you end up feeling like you should take care of him? That's how I feel with my parents and it's been a big part of me detaching from them. I just couldn't take the responsibility and the guilt any longer.

Huge hugs to anyone who is struggling on Father's Day today x

[cinammontwist]

Phew. Just spoke to Dad for his birthday. I was dreading it. He was actually in good form - it's clear he's been made a fuss of this morning (time difference) because he could actually have a conversation, rather than an extensive monologue about how wonderful he is.

He's not malicious at all, never has been. He's just so unbelievably damaged and needy that his 'love' wounds the recipient, because it demands so so much and gives so little, whilst at the same time thinking he has the right (or even obligation) to moralise. Good thing is I don't have any guilt about not speaking to him earlier than now. I can't fix his problems. Just glad he seemed happy.

[Cathpot]

Yes, sorry, will bow out , thanks for the advice

[springydaffs]

Anyway, perhaps it would be better to start your own thread about this?

[springydaffs]

She doesn't sound at all prepared to leave him. Which is a shame because her children are living, and learning, in this hell hole and will no doubt go on to replicate a similar dynamic in their adult relationships. If she can't /won't do it for herself I wish my mother she would do it for her children.

The thing that is hard to understand, and penetrate, is that victims of abuse are often addicted to their abuser. Complex and heartbreaking, especially for the children.

[Cathpot]

Thanks springydaffs. I contacted woman's aid years ago and they said until she was ready to leave there was nothing anyone could do apart from set up a coded signal if things escalated. She wasn't anywhere near ready to leave then but the children are older now - I don't know if she is closer to going now. In the past presented with lists of typical red flags she will focus on on the ones he doesn't do as evidence it's not that serious. He is not financially abusive in that he doesn't control any of the family money as he is a lazy arse and sorting that stuff out is too much hassle. He does however begrudge her spending money on herself. I'm overseas so I'm a bit out of the loop but I'm returning home and will try and be of more help. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts, I will look up the book and I will try and get her to look at online support like mumsnet as I think she would take advice / help better from people with direct experience.

[springydaffs]

My posts were for everyone in general because your friend is in a domestic abuse situation and the resources are different for that. Eg Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That is a must. Also she could contact Women's Aid national helpline 0808 2000 247 or her local Women's Aid as lines are busy on the helpline. All anonymous of she would prefer.

In my experience it wasn't until I left my abusive relationship that I went into therapy and the whole sorry story unfolded: it was no surprise I married an abuser because abuse was all I knew from my family as I was growing up.

[Cathpot]

Sorry for thread hijack incidentally it's just your stories are very like hers in many ways and I don't know what to do for the best.

[Cathpot]

Thank you l will look at those resources. Do you think it's ok for me to try prompt her on this way? Would you have wanted pushing from a friend? I think she justifiably thinks on some level that I can't really understand what it's like for her or why it's so hard to see a way out. I think maybe I need to pick my moment next time she opens up and point her towards people who do conpletely 'get it ' and from whom she would be more likely to take advice?

[springydaffs]

Stand Alone is a good org for family estrangement. Hang on, I'll get a link - nope can't find it (on phone sorry) but try standalone.org.uk.

They have workshops next w/e - c&p

Registration will close on Sunday 19th June at midnight
Workshop: The Process of Change
Therapist: Simon Campbell
June 25th and 26th 2016
12.30-4.30pm
London

This workshop focusses on managing change in relation to family estrangement

How can we grow, flourish and thrive, rather than merely survive? How we can invest time in ourselves to keep us moving in the right direction, whatever, wherever that may be?

This workshop encourages us as participants to explore what change has and will look like; what stops us from changing; what makes us struck; what is important in our lives; what is missing in our lives. As well as seeking to discover how flexible or rigid we are when it comes to our thoughts, feelings and actions.

Part of this session will allow time to explore our own approach to tackling our problems. We will explore the role of a detective and find out how we could some of their skills and methods and attitudes to help us with our own self-detective work.

What will the afternoon look like?

We will start with a 1.5 hour support group for you to share your family estrangement experiences. We will then move on to bite-sized therapeutic ideas, exercises, case studies and discussions - so that each participant has the opportunity to make connections with these concepts and apply them to their own lives and their own circumstances.

What if people judge me?

These workshops are informative and informal, respectful and non-judgmental. There is no right or wrong & there is nothing expected of you as a participant. They are designed for people who wish to: improve their wellbeing; increase their awareness; reflect on their pathway in life; and generally discover what makes them tick.

Do I need experience of therapy to take part?

To attend these workshops you do not need to be academically clever, nor do you need to have had 3 years of intensive therapy. Instead, curiosity and a willingness to try and be open and honest with your ‘self’ are the only requirements.

Where and when?

Saturday 25th June and Sunday 26th June 2016.
12.30-4.30pm

Saturday 25th: This workshop if for parents who are estranged from their adult children and/or grandchildren
Sunday 26th: This workshop is for adult children who are estranged from their parents and/or siblings

These workshops are held in a wellbeing centre in London near Old Street, N1. We won't be giving out the full address until one week prior to the workshop to those who register.

[springydaffs]

Do look out for and devour all the literature etc out there on toxic parents /families. Go to all the support groups. Read up about narcissism. Imo not all are bone fide (sp) narcissists (ie with NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder) but have narcissistic qualities on a spectrum. For a while host of reasons. I married a true narc and although my parents are narcissistic they are not full -on Narcs.

Have a look at Melanie Tonia Evans who writes well about healing from narcissistic abuse (she focuses on narcissistic abuse in romantic relationships but she knows her stuff and is a good resource).

Read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. A must.

[springydaffs]

To answer your initial q, I accept it now. I'm late 50s, had a lot of therapy, read a lot of books...

The way I see it is is like material wealth: some people have a lot of it, some don't. I don't have parental /family love. So that's that.

Swift I also had BC recently and my parents barely acknowledged it. Such a headfuck eh. I do see my parents but they are duty calls and I keep my eye on the clock. Sometimes the visit is 5 minutes bcs that's all I can cope with.

I also, if I'm honest, keep my eye on another clock: they are absolutely ancient and are lasting a surprisingly long time

Re spending time with Happy Families - well, I steer clear of those. Just like I steer clear of people who are very wealthy. My oncologist was very kind to me. He came from a culture that is strong on family and in the end I couldn't cope with his family 'wealth' which pumped off him - he was so rich with it iyswim - that I gradually started seeing another oncologist (a young woman, we were much more equal if that makes sense). I don't need it in my face, especially at such a vulnerable time.

My dad have me some money for home improvements while I was ill. I was amazed! It was the first thing he'd ever given me! Then it turns out he has already arranged for the amount to be deducted from my inheritance. It also wasn't enough money for the work I needed so I had to choose which was the most important. The blanket was too short for the bed as the good book says.

I kind of resolutely accept this has been my lot. I know that I know this has nothing to do with me; that they are damaged, emotionally cauterised, selfish, unkind people. I neither pity them nor hate them. I drew the short straw on the parent front.

As for 'revenge is a life well lived' - sometimes we are so damaged we can't live well. And that's OK, too.

[Cathpot]

I hope you all don't mind if I ask for some advice . I sometimes read these threads because I have a friend whose mother (and father before he died) is awful to her. I come from a standard issue family and things she says to me that her mother has said or done astonish and appall me. I think it helps her a bit to see my reaction but I do feel a bit helpless and unsure of how to support her to move forward . She has - due to having spent her childhood being told how useless and unattractive etc she is- married an emotionally (and on at least 3 occasions physically ) abusive man. She is an only child and all her family relationships are dysfunctional apart from with her kids. She is a lovely warm kind woman, good company and full of empathy for others. I just want to pluck her out of it all and make her see she would be so much happier away from her husband ( they work in the same department as well) but she seems paralysed to make a move. It's 15 years since he first hit her and we are still having the same conversations. Her children witness his nastiness to her all the time and her mother's too ( she said she had bought a top at a particular shop and her mum said - I didn't think you could shop there, I didn't think they did fat sizes- it's this sort of thing relentlessly ). I think her lack of confidence to leave her marriage is all down to how her parents destroyed her self worth and if she had more insight into that she might start to see her options? I hear people talking about the toxic parents book- should I buy it for her? Is that too pushy? Should I point her towards threads on mumsnet? It's so frustrating watching her cope with it all without being able to help her, or make her believe that actually she is lovely and she is worthy of being treated properly. Any thoughts or insights would be welcome.

[cinammontwist]

Hi Lotta - it's my Dad's birthday on Sunday so I know will need to phone him tomorrow (allowing for the time difference). The FOG is continuing it's creeping and I'm preparing myself mentally for talking to him again. Probably it will be the best thing and will get rid of any FOG when I realise the effect he has on me, which is what usually happens. Worst case scenario he is uncharacteristically open and actually listens to anything I say, because then the guilt really will kick in.

I am still so sad and rather angry that I just don't have a relationship with him. Or my mother really. It's just not fair and life is a lot harder as a result.

On the plus side, it's Friday!

[Lottapianos]

Thanks Cinnamon how are things with you?

[cinammontwist]

Oh you have NO obligation to be around at Christmas. At all! I second the option of being abroad. Just do it.

[Lottapianos]

Sister lives in the Middle East by the way, so visiting is A Big Trip and not just a matter of hopping on a train or whatever!

[Lottapianos]

You might be right Attila, although I usually do start worrying about Christmas in July Visiting my sister for Christmas is not an option - she is due end of November and has banned everyone from visiting for at least a month after that (suits me fine!). The dilemma is whether I visit before baby is born and again afterwards, or just visit early next year after baby comes. I'm leaning towards the latter option.

Thank you for the self confidence boost. Sometimes I feel very strongly that it is totally fine not to do the happy families thing at Christmas and that I owe them nothing, then sometimes the guilt feels too strong. Just part of grieving I guess.

Good for you going abroad, making sure you can suit yourself and have a lovely time

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Lotta

Maybe this has popped into your head now because it will be your sister's child's first Christmas. The mind is indeed a powerful organ.

Give your own self permission not to do your own thing at Christmas and not bother with either your parents or awful ILs. You really do not have to bother with any of them, no-one should spend any time with toxic relations let alone at Christmas out of some misplaced sense of familial obligation or guilt (the FOG again).

(I have already solved the Christmas problem by being abroad for the duration of the festivities).

I am going to be abroad this Christmas and I am very much looking forward to that.