Very low contact with parents and struggling a bit - reassurance please from people in similar situations!

[Lottapianos]

Brief background - narcissistic, engulfing parents who don't do 'independent' or 'different'. Grew up never being allowed to have feelings of my own. Used as marriage counsellor / emotional dumping ground by mother since age 10 / 11. Have struggled with depression and anxiety since forever. Spent 6 years in therapy.

I have been very low contact with my parents for several years now - no phonecalls, text / WhatsApp once or twice a month, see them about once a year (they live in a different country). They never visit me. I very slowly realised through therapy that they were toxic and emotionally harmful. The process of separating and detaching from them emotionally has been excruciating, and I have been deep in grief for the past few years. Every time I see them (not often), I come away feeling drained, scared, depressed and grieving all over again for the relationship I thought I had with them.

I'm coming out the other side of the grief and I have periods where not being in touch with them very much really does feel 'ok'. The situation will never be what I would like it to be, but it honestly does feel ok at times. I remind myself of the awful things they have said and done, remind myself of the psychological effect they have on me, remind myself that there is nothing wrong with wanting to protect and take care of myself. And yet..........

I'm feeling guilty again. Feeling like I 'should' visit them. Like I 'should' be in touch more often. I find myself worrying about them. And then I remind myself that they are adults, in good health, with no financial worries, and they know where I am. I have never not been welcoming when they have visited in the past. So why should I be taking on all of the responsibility etc etc etc

So I'm stuck playing ping pong with myself again! Back and forth between guilt and strength. Its exhausting and I'm tired of thinking about them all the time. Please share any words of strength and wisdom from your own experiences. I know that feelings going up and down is a normal part of this process but I'm really struggling right now

[Lottapianos]

I feel like my parents are punishing me for rejecting them by moving away, having my own life, not being my mother's therapist any more, not allowing them to control my life etc etc. I think they feel like I have abandoned them so they refuse to give their blessing to my life by visiting me and accepting me and my choices. It's too bloody exhausting to keep seeking their approval and being disappointed so I have just totally detached. Emotionally, they are still children who need to be made to feel like they are the centre of the universe

I totally relate to your sense of loss. I have often said to my partner that I feel as if I don't even have parents anymore, there are just two black holes where they should be in my life. It's almost like they're dead, but without the sense of closure that might bring. It's very grim..

[cinammontwist]

listen to a long monologue from my dad, with only the most fleeting interest from him about how my life was

^^ This. This is the exact reason i have not spoken to my Dad for 6 weeks or so. After 25 years of trying to build a relationship, I got off the phone and said "That's not good enough any more. I deserve better." I cried solidly for 10 days. I felt better and freer than ever, but am now sliding into the guilt a little again.

Lotta you're not alone in this at all.

[cinammontwist]

And just read your last post too Lotta. I too have moved abroad, they have never visited (they are quite old). But they rarely, if ever, call. Maybe once a year. They forgot my birthday last year.

I don't feel like I have parents either. I just have old people I'm supposed to have some emotional responsibility towards. It would be easier if they died, because i could get on with my own life, and the grieving would end. It doesn't end when they are alive - I'm living in a state of perpetual grief for a relationship I know I'll never have, and the only way to cope is to detach.

Lotta I think you are me.

[Lottapianos]

Have a high five and a hug cinnamon, we do seem to be kindred spirits! The grief does feel never ending at times, no closure.

I'm so glad that we both live abroad and have some physical distance at least

[FrothyBubbles]

Hi Lotta,
I could have written your opening post almost word for word. The damage done is incalculable, deep & lasting. I've not read the whole thread yet so forgive me if I've missed/cross posted with others but I could sense the desperation with which you posted and so couldn't read and run.
I'm going out now but just wanted to pick up on one aspect of your dilemma which does differ from mine because I think you should have hope here if my experience is anything to go by :

"I haven't had children myself, in part because it is a door I just cannot bear to open. I am terrified of turning into my mother"

I do have children, three, ranging in ages from 15 - 30. My mother once said to me, when my eldest was a toddler, "you should never have had children Frothy". This was one of many toxic things she has said to me over the years. In the simple act of mothering my children all these years, I came to realise, very very slowly, that she was jealous of me, and that she was in fact describing herself when she verbally lashed out at me.

She was the one who should never have been a mother.

As my children have become young adults they have seen for themselves who and what my mother is and they don't like what they see, but most significantly, they hate her for treating me like this and can see through her toxicity and hypocrisy. As a result they have a cool relationship, polite but cool.
They also say time and time again, you are nothing at all like Grandma, and through their kind and gentle natures they lift me and protect me as much as I have done the same for them through their childhoods.

Having children has unexpectedly been the single most healing thing in my life, in respect of the scars my mother left me with. I didn't have them for that reason obviously! But I would never in my most outlandish dreams have thought that the circle would be completed in this way, but it has been.
I have reset the dial, history didn't repeat itself, I could never be the sort of mother she is, I will have made other mistakes in parenting my children, but not that one. She is not me and I am not her. It's been liberating.


If you want children Lotta, don't be afraid to walk through that door, you will break the cycle. You will make mistakes, of course, but you will not make her mistake. She has had her turn and screwed it up, you can have your turn and rewrite the ending. You are you. Don't be afraid Lotta.

Take care x

[Lottapianos]

Thanks for your lovely post Frothy. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes to jealousy being at the root of all of this. "you should never have had children Frothy". Jesus. What a thing to say! These people just do not play by the rules of normal interaction, do they?

I remember telling a friend of mine about something humiliating and nasty that my mother had said to me and she was openly horrified. She said 'but that's your mum! She's supposed to be on your side FGS!' It was a total thunderbolt moment. I realised that she had so rarely been on my side and that my friend was right - she should have been. It shows just how normal this kind of messed up behaviour becomes when you have grown up with it - even if you hate it, its all you've ever known.

I really appreciate your encouragement about motherhood. I have absolutely agonised over the past 5-6 years over the whole issue. I have had moments of desperately wanting a baby and wanting to create a family of my own. However, every time I think of the relentless daily life of parenthood, I really feel that its not for me. We have no family nearby (and they're no use anyway!) and our friends don't live nearby either so we would be doing it with absolutely zero support. We have a lovely life and lots of plans that don't include children. I have moments of intense peace and gratitude at not having children. I accept that I may well always have sad / wistful moments when I wonder what might have been, but doesn't everyone, whatever path you take? I have worked with children for 16 years so am under absolutely no illusions about what would be involved and I honestly can't face it. We are a fantastic auntie and uncle and I think that's where we should leave it. Its not a black and white issue though and has been very painful at times.

I find it both really heartening and really sad that there are so many of us on this thread who have similar family situations . I get such strength from sharing stories and hearing other people's support but its so sad to think of all that hidden suffering

[Hope34]

Dear Lotta, and its all wrong,

I too could have written your posts, and I too am Irish, was living in the UK, but had to move back due to DP. Its hard coming back as I can no longer run or hide, so have started counselling and have low contact. I would love NC, however they (My parents) no where I live and just show up....not when my DP is there...he takes no s**t from them !

Thank you all for your words of wisdom, it helps to know I am not alone. I have recently started telling the truth. People ask..."your parents must be a great help"...I now don't lie I say that they are really busy with their hobbies and not that interested....Its sad that I hate when I have to answer these comments and I feel embarrassed as well....

However I do not want my children effected by my parents, my mother has started to favour one child over the other, which the younger child (age 3 ) picked up on...that was during their last unannounced visit which lasted 5 mins.

Thank you all again

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi Hope

If they turn up do not answer the door and do not let them in. Such people like your parents act like this because they want the power and control. Low contact often leads to no contact and the current level of contact needs now to be further lowered; they cannot be at all trusted to behave.

Your parents were not good parents to you and now they are acting out not too dissimilar patterns of dysfunction on your children. Such people make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures, they tend to over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild.

You have already seen in just a five minute unannounced visit what this pair can do; the damage does happen right in front of your very eyes and they have already started to favour one of your children over the other.
They cannot and must not see your children and you any more. No contact is the way forward for you.

[Hope34]

Dear Attila

My apologies for my post as I rambled and thank you for all your words of wisdom on this and the Stately thread....all very helpful, and I am currently reading the book - Toxic parents.

When my children go to school I come home close the blinds and lock the doors in case they call. However last week they sat in their car a little bit away from my home and when they saw me walking home from school with the children, then they approached!....I can't escape.

When they called I was in a hurry as I was meeting my mother and sister in law in town( I have lovely in laws) My parents called for 5 minutes anyway just to ask questions, get information, all for show, so they can update their friends on what I am doing and to be able to say that they are so great for calling in to see their grandchildren.

My counsellor is excellent, she was worried about the locking of the door and pulling the blinds approach however i explained it made life easier....I have not seen my counsellor since my parents ambushed me....this is a new approach they have.

Thank you again

[Lottapianos]

Hope34, that sounds to me like stalking behaviour! You must feel like a prisoner in your own home, with your door locked and your blinds down. How dreadful for you. I understand your 'all for show' comment - their interest has nothing to do with being genuinely interested in you and your life, its so they can be seen to be playing the role of devoted parents and grandparents. I find it really chilling - its such hollow behaviour.

Does it feel good to tell the truth, rather than nodding along with comments like 'your parents must be so helpful'? I think I might that response myself if I get asked about my family in future

[Hope34]

Hello

Lotta Yes telling the truth is a big relief , but lying is easier " yes my Mum is so great and supportive, and is always there to help with the children if I need her"......as the truth makes me sad " My Mum (and my Dad is the enabler) couldn't give a damn"

So I suppose i don't quite tell the whole truth, but diplomatically and without making the conversation awkward, its easier to say that they are so busy with hobbies and holidays etc

I see so many friends with such supportive parents, and I have such envy and sadness. On a positive note it make my friends so grateful for the support they have.

The other reason to be honest is that there are a lot more people out their like us, and when I have said this several people have agreed that their parents are similar or know parents like this. Not all parents are ideal, the biggest issue like you mentioned is the fear that we shall repeat the behaviour ....we won't as we have insight!

[Lottapianos]

Hope34, the truth is very sad indeed. Heartbreaking at times. You never stop needing your parents, however old you are, and its painful to be reminded that they cannot give you what you need from them. I have felt very envious of people who have healthy relationships with their families, and raging jealousy of friends who are creating their own families by having children. That has settled down a bit now and I'm starting to accept that this is just my lot. There's a certain freedom to be had in detaching from family and all of the stifling obligation that goes with it, so I'm trying to remind myself of that. I think it will always hurt though

[Hope34]

To all the kindred spirits on this thread, I say hello

we shall get through this those who are going through it, and those that are through, well done

Frothy thank you for those words as a mother of grown up children. My children are young and it was my first issue when I went to counselling, that I wanted to ensure I did not repeat the cycle. I adore my two babies so much, they are my world.

The counsellor said, which I can now see is that we have empathy, our parents did not.

Lotta, don't let this experience stop you having children. I can now see I am not like my mother. (I too have to work on my behaviour with my DP, as I too do what she did...the silent treatment..... however I do talk things through as he has greater emotional intelligence :))

[FrothyBubbles]

Lotta, I completely understand that parenthood may be something that's not possible or probable for a whole host of reasons that are and should remain private. I suppose I was trying to say that if the reason not to have children was because of your mother, or fear of turning into your mother, that this alone should not determine your future, your life, your horizons.

You won't ever be your mother, not least because you've posted here, which immediately shows you have self awareness, that on its own will protect you. More importantly you sound lovely, I've read your posts on other threads for ages before I 'joined' in, and I remember them as you appear measured and kind and sensible. But equally I know that it's hard to believe in yourself, hard to believe you're 'good' when you've been at the receiving end of such malice, from the one person who should surround you with love.
One of the hardest things I have found, is that my daughter, who everyone will say is just like me and she is just like I was at that age, to think that my mother could direct her venom at a child like that and maintain it, it's utterly heartbreaking. DD is the sweetest, kindest, gentlest, most thoughtful girl (a much better version than me!) and so I weep for the child that I was. In my stronger times I can see clearly that it's because I've endured that, that I'm able to be the mother I am to my children, so they have benefitted. and in turn I take comfort from that.

The unexpected validation I get from my children (and dh) about my mother and how nasty she is, could just as easily come from other sources, whether that's professional counsellors or friends, and that may be where your source of comfort lies now and in the future. I, like many others here, find it excruciating to admit to anyone in RL though, it feels like a taboo subject, as it's so alien to the majority of people, and I worry that the assumption will be made that there's no smoke without fire.
It's an ongoing battle to re-write the narrative that she has left playing on a loop in my head. It helps to know there are others out there, although I'm sad for you and others at the distress it causes. Let's all try and be kind to ourselves.. x

[FrothyBubbles]

Hope, I firmly believe, and my children have told me this themselves, that some good can come from our experiences.
I don't want to boast, and it's only in the last few years that this has happened as they were too young prior to that, but my three have told me they think I'm wonderful, we are very close, and they are three very different characters, they aren't carbon copies of me/us/each other so I'm as sure as I can be that their opinions are sound.
(My dh too is crystal clear about the dynamics, which helps when my mother kicks off, as he can calmly and quietly unpick it and see the bigger picture and remind me that it's her, it's not me.)
So I would say keep doing what you're doing, your children will see everything and they will work it out, they know exactly who loves them and has their back. They recognise mean people, even if at the time they are too young to join the dots, that will come later.
You can't repeat the cycle, for the simple reason you have insight, and the ability to self-reflect, you are your own monitor.

[FrothyBubbles]

Hear Hear Itsallwrong.

Attila "Such people make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures, they tend to over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild."
I have witnessed this too, my dd, the one just like me? She has been at the receiving end of unbelievably hurtful, directed actions or should I say inactions by my mother, but I must be balanced and say enabled by my father.
The inequality between how they treat my children and my siblings children is at times astounding, and blatant. In many ways, and possibly due to my dd being the clearly innocent victim of my mother's warped mind, it has been this more than anything that has been the proverbial nail in her coffin.

It may not surprise you to know that I am indeed the scapegoat and my sibling the golden child, sadly my mother is trying her best to extend this skewed form of natural selection into another generation. Attila you are spot on.

[Comfortzone]

Marking place as I have similar awfulness off and on from my mother - I'm low contact and it's very hard

[cinammontwist]

Hello everybody. Echoing the sentiments of earlier posts to say what a relief it is to find kindred spirits. I'm genuinely astounded at how similar your stories and experiences are to mine. It's like a script, almost word for word the same.

Hope - your parents sound like stalkers. Mine are the opposite but that sounds really, really difficult. They have no right to behave as they do. You have a right to a peaceful life without fear of having to deal with them. It's all on their terms, isn't it.

Something struck me when I was reading this and that is how people from families with healthy dynamics really don't understand what we are battling. It sounds really petty to say things like, "But Dad didn't listen to me on the phone" or "Mum told me she didn't care if I ever got married or not, because well, she's old so what does it matter to her". It's a silent and invisible pain. I try my best to look and act functional but there are times I get it wrong. It still affects me and my choices really deeply.

I was the golden child (not any more, since I challenged my mother's verbal abuse of my father - who incidentally then told me to apologise to my mother), my sister the scapegoat. We have different perspectives on the dysfunction but still agree it's dysfunction. My eldest brother is a superior wanker of the highest order (often writes in either Latin or Italian just to prove how educated he is) and I am really jealous of families that are healthy. I'm jealous and a bit angry that I have toxic family dynamics. It also makes me feel inferior when dating good men (I'm single, genuinely terrified of trusting men/intimacy), feeling like I'm damaged goods and who would want to get close to me? I also can't really read or recognise goodness. I still tend to go for the men who will treat me badly. Anything for a bit of attention.

Does anyone ever feel guilty that they are punishing their old and frail parents for something they don't understand and don't intend? I just realised now that my Dad used to send me handwritten letters when I first moved to the UK. Which actually is quite nice, but still somehow never made me feel loved by him. Should I keep contact then, seeing as he did try all those years, despite being judgemental, making assumptions that I was sleeping with men at 16, being unable to really listen to me etc. Maybe that's just him? Maybe in his own faulty way he tried?

Anyway I'm just musing out loud. Don't mean to hijack.

[Hope34]

Cinammon - don't let this family dynamic change your potential happiness. I was very inward and kept to myself in my 20s. I never had any relationships and had very low self esteem. I decided to change things in my 30s as I didn't want to be on my own. I internet dated and it was a really positive experience. I went on 5 dates with really lovely guys...my husband was date 5.........Now I have my own positive family...with ups and downs ...but honest and loving. Go for the nice guys...its worth it , you deserve it

[cinammontwist]

Thanks Hope. I've started Tinder dating a month ago and have been swinging between nice (but they feel boring) and not so nice but fun and definitely not for long. I need to veer back towards nice.

[MidnightLullaby]

Have read this thread with interest.

Cinnamon it's even deeper than that, the impact of the comments. Because it isn't just a throwaway remark when they say things like, "I don't care if you will marry or not" or "no one will ever want you" or whatever they have said. People from healthy families hear that and think, "well so what if she said that! Live you own life and be happy" or "well that's obviously not true, so why let it bother you?"

But you are not hearing that as an isolated comment as a well adjusted adult who can think, "gosh, what a ridiculous thing to say!" and, after getting over your initial upset, can pootle along just nicely.

You're hearing it as a damaged adult, who has been hearing that, and similar and worse since you were 5 years old or so and it's all you've ever known.

It's a truth that's up there with "the sky is blue", "don't go off with strangers" and "work hard at school". It's just one of the many narratives and truths you have learnt about yourself and the world around you since you were born. It is the world that you know. And when people tell you to "just ignore it" they don't realise that they may as well be saying to you, "we're all going to start speaking Swedish tomorrow." and expect you to just be able to do it.

I've been NC for 4 and a half years and it was the best decision I ever made. I do still have people saying things like, "don't you think it's best to let bygones be bygones/you only get one mother/you'll regret if she dies before you've made up" and I don't get upset by that because they have proved themselves to have absolutely no understanding of these sorts of dynamics/relationships. There will be no making up. These are not 'bygones', the only reason I don't hear/see it now is because she isn't in my life. And yes, I do only have one mother and I'm better off without her.

I am still baffled when I read this site and read of people who've gone on to have positive relationships as adults. I can only assume it's because they were receiving positive messages about themselves from other people. But I had no other family. Physically abusive dad, emotionally abusive mother, Golden Child brother with whom there are ongoing problems and a grandma who, ultimately, supported my mother and wasn't there for me when I desperately needed her. I didn't hear anything positive about myself until I was 40 and by then it was all so ingrained that I couldn't process anything positive and I've struggled even more since trying to address it.

It's really bloody hard!!

Oh yes, and the nc happened when my mother tried passing it on to my children. I wasn't going to let her do the same to them as she did to me.

[MidnightLullaby]

Frothy my children have said similar. It's very comforting that I haven't continued the legacy!

[Lottapianos]

Frothy and it'sallwrong, thank you for such really lovely and thoughtful comments. I hear what you say about me not being my mother and how that shouldn't hold me back from parenthood. She's not the only reason it's not for me though! I really don't think I'm cut out for the full time responsibility of being a parent. I am broadly very happy with my life. I look into the future and see a childfree life and it feels good. I do have ups and downs with it but overall it feels like the right decision.

A huge hug to those of you who have children and who know that you are not repeating your parents' behaviour. I know parents like you who are able to treat their children like people rather than extensions of themselves and it's a lovely thing to see.