This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Bouquets You obviously (luckily for you) have no experience of someone like my mother. I personally think there is some truth in the statement. Both parties will view things from their own angle MY MOTHER views things from her own angle, she denies things happened, she lies, she invents things, she eventually believes her own lies, but this does not mean that I do the same.
Nobody goes NC on a whim, nobody ensures their children are NC with their grandparent on a whim. It is done with good reasons. Those reasons don't have to be sexual or physical abuse either, it can be that they are so manipulative, lying, creating favourites and basically being so horrible to be around that the only way to deal with them is to have nothing to do with them.
You can accept that this might happen with people who are not family, right? Why won't you believe me when I say that my mother is one of those people? Because she gave birth to me?
To say there are 2 sides is OFFENSIVE, it's says that my lived experience, the way she has treated me is a lie, that it is partly my fault. Can't you see that?
Why are there always people who come these threads and say "it takes two to tango" and so on, whne they know nothing about either the specific situations on the thread or toxic, dysfunctional people and the family dynamics they create.
And as for that "denying the children their family", well that just shows that you don't understand. I feel it is better to deny my children the opportunity to have one be made the favourite and one ignored, to learn that the way to behave is to manipulate, to use emotions to create fear and division, that drama and lies are the way to organise a family. No thanks.

ThumbWitchesAbroad - I do have some experience going on of both sides of this kind of situation. I was not an abused child. I was expected to behave politely and I do not think that was a bad thing. The whole point for me is that I can not "enable" anything. I am watching all this going on around me and can not seem to do anything constructive. I can see both sides but I can not feel other people's feelings. I agree with some of the things said by Person 1 and also agree with some of the things said by Person 2. I am not trying to enable any abuse either way, absolutely not. I can see the hurt being caused to some people but someone has been so uncommunicative that Idont think anyone knows anything of their feelings. I know that there are a number of people who are not happy with that persons decisions. I know that my child is losing out on contact with other children of the family and that is something I am not happy about. They are children, all of the children are young and innocent in all of this. I worry about how all this will affect my child (and the other children).
I feel quite disturbed by the response from someone here and despite being fairly sure that this person does not even know me or understand my position in this NC in my family, this person has been very critical. It has been said before that I have rose tinted specs, and it may well be true but rather that than being as bitter as some people seem to be.

"Bitter"

Right. I'm off out for the day, good luck ThumbWitches et al!

A benefit of living in relative peace & prosperity, perhaps? I agree we have a more sophisticated understanding of relationship / family/ power dynamics
Being able to collaborate, swap stories, share info online, ideas can spread more quickly
Patterns are identified, we can give names to things that weren't identified as things before, that enables us to analyse them, take them apart, look at the modus operandi of various types of abusers.

Who here hasn't wondered what live would have been like for them if they'd been able to consult mumsnet back in the day?

Sure much bullshit and bile is spouted online, there are echo chambers and what not but you can just find out about things that weren't even things back then

GoodtoBetter - I am sorry to hear that you had such an upsetting time with your Mother. I think perhaps I was lucky with the parents I have had. Many times I had thought certain things were unfair or too exacting but on the whole I think my life has been good. I was never without anything I really needed and most things I wanted I got with a few exceptions.
I also know that I have been loved.

Maybe this is why I cant understand what is happening around me. I just want a good a peaceful life. I don't mean financially or materially. I want good and kindly people around me, I don't really like fighting and bad feelings. I am old enough to know that there is no fairy tales in real life but that does not stop me from wishing that there were.
I feel a bit piggy in the middle in what is happening around me. It is a bit nasty at times. No-one wishes to see another's point of view. It is stalemate I think but I do love and am concerned for the person who goes NC. It has happened before many times and then something happens and things change for a while, usually when some help of some kind is needed. That alone is not the most pleasant thing to do and implies that people only have "uses" or are "users"
I hope that life is better for you now GoodtoBetter. It seems that I will go on in this situation forever. I don't really want to NC anyone. I thought I would get some insights here. I don't want people to take against me because I have not had other people's experiences.

Yes, very true, glass. And how I wish there'd been Mumsnet!

"denying the children their family" - Not at all unreasonable, Good, if intimate knowledge of the family's interpersonal dynamics tells you they would harm your children's development.

I see how upset you are, Bouquets (I keep wanting to call you Hyacinth!) but can't help feeling you wish you could control this situation. You can't. Part of emotional stability is respecting others' decisions about what to do with their lives. It often is frustrating, yes. And, after you've shared your opinion, it needs to be left alone.

But then, Bouquets, I'm afraid you don't have personal first hand experience. You are an observer who has no actual understanding of the feelings engendered.
That in itself is fine, but you shouldn't then presume to tell people who do have personal, first-hand experience and deep feelings about it, that there must be "two sides to the story" (which is as good as saying "no smoke without fire") or that they are bitter. They may be bitter as well, but they may have every reason to be so. Or, they may just have been so hurt by whatever behaviour that they experienced, that they chose to withdraw from the hurt. That's not bitter - that's not wishing to bang your head against that particular brick wall any longer.

Your own family situation, from the little you've said, sounds unpleasant - but hopefully the children will find their own way forward as they get old enough to make their own choices. :)

I don't want people to take against me because I have not had other people's experiences.

Not calling people bitter would be a start.

Thank you bouquets and I am sorry for your family situation, but please understand why it is hurtful to say there are two sides to every story on a thread where people are talking about family so destructive that they feel the only way to cope is nc. I have no idea about your family and the reasons for nc but I wouldn't dream of making sweeping generalisations about it either.

wow bouquet, you say you don't take sides and then go on to write like you think the person who eventually went NC is the problem, even implying that they are dangerous. Have a read up on gas lighting to ensure you are not being used against the NCer as part of the abuse.

Remember that people who go NC were in contact with their families for YEARS before hand

Don't you think it's unhealthy to teach children by example that they can never walk away from a destructive relationship? What does that teach them about their own future relationships?

I had a difficult relationship with my late MIL, she was a very strange woman but I knew she had faced some difficult things in her life so I tried to cut her some slack. She always referred to me as "the girl" or "it" as she "couldn't remember" my name but funnily enough she could remember my mother/sister/aunt/nieces names without any problem even though she had less contact with them.

She was furious when we told her we were expecting our last child, I have 4, and literally started shouting and yelling and smashing plates. Never could figure out what was in her head.

My husband went NC several times but always relented.

I honestly think she was mentally ill so I tried to understand and I only ever had one stand up row with her and I think that was a terrible shock to her.

In the end it was sad, her son didn't love her and neither did her grandchildren. My mother was loved dearly and they still talk of her fondly15 years after her death. MIL is rarely mentioned. Of course the ultimate tragedy is the damage she did to her son even though I believe she did love him but due to her issues had a strange way of showing it.

The point at which we went NC wasn't because we fell out over a restraunt bill and neither side has backed down and apologised since and we're all just sulking!

We went NC because it was unhealthy to keep trying and trying and it was unhealthy to allow the children to witness us being damaged and it was unhealthy to allow the children to be damaged by being involved and used in an abusive relationship.

Bourquet would you say to a woman who left an abusive partner that she should go back to him for the sake of the children and that there's two sides to every story? And that the children are missing out? Because this is exactly the same

People who want to cause pain don't walk away, people who want peace walk away

GarlicShake - that really made me laugh. You want to call my Hyacinth? I could not be any further removed from Hyacinth. I am nothing like that at all. I don't really want to control the situation. The people are both adults so no control is even possible. I would like things to be different but I know that while people are locked into this dispute how it affects other is not a priority to either party.
ThumbWitchesAbroad - I am not sure that you can really say that I have no real experience. The people are family to me, close relatives and although I am not at the forefront of the dispute it does affect me and I presume that there are others who have some effects from this situation. I wonder if it is worse to see it going on and hurting the closest people or it might be easier to be one of the people actually fighting/disagreeing. I don't have an argument with either party and I do think about whether it is wise to keep banging my head on the wall. It certainly does hurt.
LizKeen - I am sorry t say that it does all sound "bitter" to me. I do take on board that I do not have the same experiences as you and that may be why I do not see it all the same way as you.

I would also say that although I was not an abused child and I did have a fairly comfortable upbringing not everything in my garden has been rosy. I have had some dreadful upsets of a completely different type. I have not lived my life in a gilded cage. I find it so hard to watch my nearest and dearest hurting each other so much and my having to be the "there, there" person.
I am sorry that not everyone has such happy memories of childhood. I do and I am grateful for that.

come to that, would you suggest that someone who left an abusive partner should should spend more time listening to and trying to understand abusers point of views. (when theirs was the only valid point of view for years)

It took me years, YEARS bouquet, to first understand that what happened between me and my mother was not normal, then to actually recognise that it was abuse, and finally to be able to put names on what happened (NPD, Gasslighing etc)

Most victimes DO ALREADY spend years excusing their abusers actions, it takes a lot to get to a point where they recognise it for what it is, particularly with parent-child abuse.

So you're basically telling victims to go backwards, to doubt themselves, to re-enter the cycle

Just because children become adult children doesn't mean the abuse stops. An adult parent can still abuse an adult child (just like an adult partner abuses an adult partner), they can still gaslight them, the can still destroy their confidence, they can still filter their relationships with extended families through them.. except now, it's worse, because they're doing it on front of a new generation of children! Someone has to stop the cycle and give the new generation a chance to realise that abuse is not the norm in relationships

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I do not think that the person who went NC is dangerous. In fact quite the opposite. I think that going NC could and has previously put that person IN DANGER. This has happened before and is one of the reasons that I am against NC
The person who went NC has come back when they have been in trouble and I think they should keep some contact so that it is not so obvious that I need you now and I don't want you now.
I most certainly would not encourage a woman who had been abused by a husband ever to go back to him for any reason. Absolutely not.

You say there's 2 sides bouquet but you are quite clearly on the side of the people in your family who were walked away from and not in the middle by any stretch. You see them "hurting", you see the other side as a brick wall who may be unhinged.

So yes, you have no experience of the NCers side.

My mother is fabulous at playing the victim, she is careful to ensure that very few people (even extended family) ever get to see the side of her she keeps for behind closed doors with me.

There are of course situations where abusers isolate their victim

But NCing your parent, particularly in the context of threads about Narc parens, is not usualy the "nastly ILs fault"

Quite the opposite.

What happens is when you have had an abnormal family life and you have a relationship with someone who loves you in a healthy way, and who has a healthy relationship with their parents, this brings the unhealthiness of your own parent-child relationship into a more clear focus. You have a shot at building a happy peaceful family. THAT is why so many people go NC when a partner or new ILs come into the picure, not because the partner or new ILs are isolating them or "turning them against" the parents

And of course it is common for people who have had abusive parents to have a history of abusive relationships - what else do they know. It's sometimes when you finally experience a healthy one that you get the strength to walk away from your original unhealthy relationship..

I am sorry that not everyone has such happy memories of childhood. I do and I am grateful for that.

:) Happy to hear that you do.
My sister told me a little story about a course she was on. There were about ten people. One of the exercises involved writing down the first words that came into their heads related to "childhood". All the others scribbled away with their 'happiness, security, laughter,' etc, bar one. My sister and this other woman wrote down nothing. They looked at each other and mouthed "fear".

This is what the NC adults want to protect their children from.

This is my side, the third side maybe. I have seen two sides of hurt and feel hurt myself and for my child. I have not said that either is a brick wall. It is a phrase "banging my head of a brick wall" It means that there is no hope and only causing hurt. I don't know where I said anyone was unhinged. I don't think anyone is, I think they have taken a stance and wont move from that. I have never NCed anyone. I would rather talk it out.

LizKeen - I am sorry t say that it does all sound "bitter" to me. I do take on board that I do not have the same experiences as you and that may be why I do not see it all the same way as you

If you take it on board why are you still judging my feelings as bitter? If you have no idea what I have been through then you have no right to judge my feelings as anything. You have no right to say I am bitter, as if my feelings are somehow unreasonable and blown out of proportion.

I pity you, as you are in a dysfunctional relationship and you cannot see it for what it is. I can tell you are trying your best to be impartial, but there are things you have been told that you are treating as fact, when they probably are not. You are biased despite your best efforts not to be because of the untruths that surround these situations.

IIRC you said a few posts ago that the person who went NC is uncommunicative. Can you not see that the reason for that is because they know there is no point in trying to communicate? If the other person in the situation has told you they have no idea why this is happening, that might not actually be true. If you read the blog that was linked to on page 1 you will see that it is very common for abusers to completely block out the actual substance of the conversation and only hear the shouting or only feel attacked.

If you truly want to understand the situation then you need to take a huge step back and look at the person who was walked away from in the same critical light that you see the person walking away. It takes a great deal of personal awareness to be able to question someone you have grown up trusting implicitly, so I would guess that me even suggesting doing that will make you feel defensive.

everyone would rather talk it out bouquet. How can you talk it out when the other side won't acknowldege anything that's happened?

Here's a dummies guide bouquet, the steps taken to go NC:
Childhood
You feel that something is not right, you're told it's you!
You realise that your home life isn't as safe/comfortable as other peoples
You love your parent and worry about them not always loving you
Early Adulthood
You say "I'm not really close with my parents, I wasn't abused or anything.. we're just not close". You accept mutual blame for this (even though you were the child)
You might distance yourself from them, or even briefly NC, but you go back hoping for something better for the future
Mid adulthood
You try to put childhood behind you and build some sort of "normality" with your parent
You give them a chance to be a better grandparent than they were parent, you haven't had kids yet yourself but imagine parenting to be hard so you make excuses
You excuse your childhood because your parent had a harder childhood
You secretely wonder if you should have kids yourself incase you are how your parents were with you
You might experience some healtier relationships that hint to you that perhaps you're not as difficult to love as your parent tought you you were
Becoming a parent yourself
You see your parent repeating old habits even though you have given endliess second chances for them to do better
You see it all play out on front of and involving your children again
You read, you realise it was and still is abuse, you just never wanted to say that word, after all, it's not like your parents raped you.. they just emotionally and maybe physically/negletfully abused you. You read, you begin to talk without shame about what happened to you
You want to stop the cycle
NC

Oh and at everey stage in my previous post, you try to talk to them, with the following responses:

• verbal abuse (or physical if still in the childhood stage)
• denial
• gaslighting (have you read up on that yet bouquet?)
• re-writing of history
• It being used as an example of how unreasonable you are

Why should I keep talking now.
Why should I communicate, still, now, after all that trying.

Just for it to be twisted, and used against me?

(that was a rhetorical question of course, I know why I shouldn't keep trying to talk it through, because I know from years of experience how it'ld pan out: Denial, a big blow up, followed by my mother going to all relatives that'll listen that I'm "difficult" and she doesn't know why I " have to be that way". No acknowledgement of any problem on their part, I'M the problem. I was the sole problem responsible for our relationship being shit when I was 5, 8, 10, 14, 20, 30, and now. There's nowhere you can go from there)

Yup. I am the sole problem too. I was the problem when I was a naughty toddler, a troublesome child, a nightmare teen, and I never changed as I grew up. I am still immature. They don't know what to do with me. My mum doesn't understand why I am the way I am, and she knows that no matter what she does I will always think the worst of her.

I was responsible for our relationship before I could even tie my own shoes.

Pass me a fucking tissue while I cry for her pain and her hurt.