This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Screenshott that is a very good description!

My parents both had troubled childhoods, but to my eternal gratitude they decided they didn't want to repeat the same mistakes. My dad was the sg in his family and now is nc with the gc. My dp is similar, the sg. I think it is easier to break away from your family if you are the sg you might as well break away as you are always punished, the gc is always rewarded and pulled back.

We are nc with a couple of members Dp's family. There were disagreements and I foolishly tried to have a rational conversation and did everything I could to sort it out rather than just shut up and put up. Several vitriolic emails followed on both occasions and you can't cooperate with someone toxic, they just lash out at you until they hope you stop and are put in your place. We have removed ourselves and our dcs from their toxic sphere of influence. Are lives are much easier for it.

As a child I begged my mother to love me. I literally begged her to love me. Through sobs. She would laugh or sneer. Not ask why I felt that way and reassure me I was loved.

But I'm the bad communicator because after decades I gave up trying to communicate with her

K.

I agree quirky, being a SC rather than GC gives you a chance to break free

I saw that when one of my kids became the GC, it was terrifying, my mother (still from a distance) has an unhealthy obsession with raising her up above me and my other SG child.

DD1 had so much to live up to being the perfect child.

My mother would ignore DD2 on front of DD1 and the kids were picking up on that and beginning to act out to each other even though they are usually best friends.

She was out to damage DD1's relationship with me and her sister so that she could put her on a pedistal

I know that no-one is perfect. Both parties have got things wrong. I know who is taking money from whom. I know that one person has gone out of their way to be helpful while the other just does not answer texts and phone calls from anyone including their DH. I know that lies were told about money because I might have been a child at the time but I was present when all sorts of money problems were sorted out. I know that other people (non family) have complained about this failure to answer tests and calls and trying to obtain money. I don't care about all that other than it gets repeated to me.
What I do care about is when my child says can we go and see (other children) and I have to say we cant because (one person) has fallen out with us all and we would not be welcome. Having a view of what my child talks about in this connection I wonder what (other children) are saying and thinking because they are much the same age.
I also care deeply that the NC person has been in danger before to the point where lives could be at risk but stood before us denying the bruises we could clearly see. I don't want to live through those times again and I don't want it for the parents who are now 10+ years older.
I know who is telling history different from the facts. I have tried to understand gaslighting but it is not easy.

I am now wondering if there is any point in hoping for different. People will stick to what they believe. I want all the family round my child, I will speak out if I think something wrong is being said or done to my child.

My view of childhood was day trips, Christmas, parties, holidays and meals being burned. We survived the meals and the rest I enjoyed.
I am sad that all kids did not have such a good childhood but I do have things like divorce and associated problems and a difficult birth in my life now as payback probably

Some children are difficult, that is a fact. I have 4 and one was a very unhappy baby after a difficult delivery. He went on to have terrible tantrums as a 2 year old and a real handful through childhood. Puberty was a nightmare. I can honestly say he is a lovely adult, he phones me a couple of times a week, tells me about his work/social life/plans he has, he visits regularly.

Even when he was throwing things at me and being horrible I loved him totally but it didn't blind me to him being a nightmare. I can't imagine letting him being a challenging child interfere with our relationship. It is sad that there isn't always a happy ending.

I also care deeply that the NC person has been in danger before to the point where lives could be at risk but stood before us denying the bruises we could clearly see. I don't want to live through those times again and I don't want it for the parents who are now 10+ years older.

So this person is/was in an abusive relationship and you are blaming THEM for causing pain to their parents?

Reading your posts is exactly like something the linked blog describes. There is no clarity. There is no specific description of a situation. I am inclined to believe it is because you are trying to avoid us asking difficult questions, or seeing it differently from how you see it and telling you that actually, the NC person is a victim and is not at fault as much as you have been led to believe.

granny

Let me be clear.

I was not a difficult child.

I was not a nightmare teen.

I was top of the class in school. Never in trouble. I did nothing wrong...I was too scared to. I just got punished for my brothers behaviour instead. As a teen, I was "difficult" for wanting to go to the cinema or shopping with my friends. I was grounded for going for a walk (that was allowed) and happening to bump into friends from school who were boys. Grounding was defunct as I wasn't allowed to go anywhere, "but grounded" I was. For 3 months.

I didn't drink. I didn't try drugs. I had a job from the age of 14 and I worked all weekend for very little money. I didn't have time or the chance to do anything that could be called nightmareish.

I was a problem to her because she could not control me. I had opinions and I saw through her. She knew it and she punished me for it.

I was raped at 15 and I never told anyone. Least of all them. They would have only blamed me for it anyway.

I told her, last year, about the PND I has suffered after the birth of my second. I told her I had been suicidal. I am still waiting for any of that to be acknowledged. Her reply was that I always think the worst of her and she can never get anything right. Even me telling her about my depression was taken as an attack on her.

As payback??? You do know that bad things happen randomly, don't you, Bouquet?

If you're of the belief that life is like some kind of judge, jury and headmistress - meting out suffering and opportunities as deserved - then it's easy to see why you can't understand the problems in your family.

You might just have to take it on faith from us that children don't get the parenting they 'deserve'. It's just a matter of luck whether you were born to competent parents.

You've said you're not wanting to control this situation, but you also say " I want all the family round my child." You can't have it. Because people will stick to what they believe, and they will do what they need to. Not what you wish they would. Essentially, you're trying to change who they are and that is not healthy.

I'd like to ask you more about the bruises, but am afraid of meeting a wall of discompassion.

Gaslighting is not hard to understand
Unless part of you doesn't want to understand it incase you have to admit you were used (everyone likes to think they are too clever to be used, but narcs are usually highly clever) and the versions you swear blind you know about have actually been filtered.
But generally, gaslighting is not hard to understand. You don't have to experience it to understand it when you read about it.

My mother has used money as a tool too. It's never given freely. The fact that you are citing it now shows that what is being claimed to have been a gift or a helping hand is now being used against the other person as "proof" that the parents are the good guys. If you give something freely, it's gone and you don't use it against the person for the rest of their lives!

Bouquets - I begin to see why you find the NC person "uncommunicative" as you are also twisting what we are saying to you.
I didn't say you had "no real experience" - you have your own, of course - what I said is that you had "no personal first hand experience" of being on the back end of an abusive relationship with a parent/relative. And you clearly don't, as you are not one of the people involved in the "dispute" - you are a bystander. Yes I'm sure it does hurt you to see people you love falling out, and to see dysfunctional outcomes - but it's not the same as being in the firing line of it.

I should add that you sound like a lovely mum granny and I am glad you have a good relationship with him now.

It's just a matter of luck whether you were born to competent parents
And if not, it's pot luck as to whether you are born the golden child or the scapegoat sibling. The golden child is turned against the SC and used against them to prove how unlovable the SC is

And FWIW my mother has caused me bruises in adulthood too. Noone in her inner circle (including many family members) would in a million years imagine she is anything other than the doting hard done by loving mother of a difficult daughter.

She is so cunning, she was never ever witnessed being anything but meek and loving towards me.. until DH in our early relationship witnessed her when she thought she and I were alone….. and since then she has obliterated his character to all relatives, making it so noone would ever listen to him.

It wouldn't be beyond my mothers form to bruise me herself and then spread rumours about it being DH. She dosn't like DH because he's one of the very few people who know what she's capable of

Just popped over to gransnet to check my parents I'm nc with aren't on it. There's a thread on there about this thread!

Offers of help were freely given over the years. If a person is in a violent or abusive relationship and they remain there they are effectively remaining a victim of their own choice especially when help is offered and the truth denied. Does a victim of a violent relationship have the right to involve others especially young children and older people in that violence. I mentioned that the parents are now 10+ years older to indicate that they are not so able to step up and take the same action again as the years go on however I have no doubt that they would do their best. I would also point out that I am divorced and therefor I know how difficult a decision it is to take that step outside the door and walk away. I walked at the first sign of violence because that is no life at all.
It may well be that the NC person is a victim and that is precisely why if I could give advise it would be to stay close to the family who could and would provide help and support at a difficult time.
It seems that no matter what I say I am going to be jumped on. I am not allowed to say that older people should not be involved in violence apparently I just don't think that is right. Again with my rose tinted specs I think grandparents should visit in the daytime, bring cakes and toys have fun with the children and not be rolling around in the middle of the night fending off an attack from a drink and drug crazed idiot. Maybe that too is wrong

Liz I wasn't implying you were a nightmare, my point was even if a child, any child, is a nightmare you don't stop loving them, as the adult it is the parents job to try and resolve whatever the issues are.

I firmly believe that in my sons case his early problems were due to a very difficult forceps delivery. As he got older he was frustrated as he was very bright and also very independent and found being a child very frustrating. As I saw it my job was to give him support with his early pain and distress and as he got older to try and give him appropriate boundaries while still keeping him safe. He will often say now that he looks back in horror at himself as a 13 year old who was drinking and smoking and staying out late. I count it as a triumph for us both that he achieved academically, never got into trouble with the police, has a great job and a good life and we have a great relationship. I don't congratulate myself for that, I was doing my job, but I would be lying if said I wasn't extremely happy that we have got to this point.

Your mother clearly was not there for you and that is wrong, it would still have been wrong if you had been a nightmare child.

Thank you Liz, I try but I don't always get it right but then I am only human.

I wish every child had a loving family, I volunteer at a local school and sometimes the children say things that make me sad. I have more time than the teachers and TAs and you can tell some children don't get much positive interaction with adults. I help with reading and spend as much time chatting about the books and which books they like as I do with the actual reading. It is so rewarding to see them progress.

Just to be absolutely clear the bruises were not caused by any family member they were caused by the violent partner who was violent to women children older people but not so smart with men. He was abusive to all.
I know that bruises could be seen and were seen by many family members but when the bruised person was asked it was denied that there were any bruises. There were plenty of times this happened.
I am not being very specific because I am not wanting to give any clues as to identity of any of the family. There are some very specific things which happened but it would be too revealing to mention them. There would be even more trouble if it became clear who was being talked about here.
I only mentioned the difficult birth and the divorce to show that my life has not been perfect. I know that it is not real payback just things that happen and it has been an education and wake up call.
Support is available for this person but no-one can walk into their house and lift up an adult, say I know best for you. That would be kidnap. So the end result is people have to sit and watch a car crash in slow motion and wonder when if ever it will end.

Just caught up quickly.

Liz, we had such similar childhoods. I too was "difficult" and yet also the most boring well-behaved teen in the world!

Bouquets, am I misreading things here? I do that sometimes, especially online - but you're on an online forum with abuse victims and I am just amazed by what you're writing. You seem to feel attacked but call us all bitter. You claim that victims choose to be victim. If this level of empathy is what a "good happy childhood" produces then I am almost (almost and not seriously) glad I didn't have one.

As for people on the sidelines having it worse, I am

I think Bouquets has a family member who is in an abusive relationship but has gone non contact with family and denies the physical abuse by the partner. Have I got that right Bouquet? The victim has probably been manipulated into this position by the abusive partner who doesn't want people supporting the victim. This would obviously be very difficult for the family who will be concerned about the physical and mental health of the estranged family member.

If I am right Bouquet I think this is non contact caused in a different way to the non contact people are talking about. I think all you can do is be ready to support your relative if and when she wants to leave this relationship. I knew someone in a similar situation and they found it hard to leave but the did get there eventually.

Bouquet, did you see my post this morning, where we briefly discussed how my father's abuse led to my choosing similarly abusive husbands? It's a very well known phenomenon. What conditioning do you suspect led to your relative's choice, and her choice to put up with it: even denying the evidence? I would wonder whether she'd been trained from a young age to do so.

"I am not allowed to say that older people should not be involved in violence apparently"

This is a very odd statement. It bears no relation to anything I've seen written here.Or did you mean you said this to the bruised relative?

Yes, granny, it may be a case of isolation by an abuser. It's very hard to tell what's going on from Bouquet's posts

Bouquets I don't even know where to start with your recent posts.

You are wrong. I am sorry to say it. But your view of victims, and abuse is astoundingly warped.

Stop victim blaming. Just stop.

I am putting forward a viewpoint that perhaps abuse victims do not see because they are so hurt themselves. I was dreadfully hurt by my divorce and felt as if I was at fault with the difficult birth. You have all been so brave to over come the bad childhoods you talk of and your determination to give your own children more and better is admirable. I do not consider I am a brave person probably more the opposite. I managed to get away before my situation escalated into anything like what the person I talk of was in. I did not talk to anyone, I did not ask for help, I just walked away and went to family to ask if I could stay. This person has been offered so much but seems not to realise their situation. That strikes me as even more scary when people do not see the danger. I wish she would get out and accept offers of help. I have spoken to official help for this situation and they told me that women often stay till their families get fed up offering help and then they turn to this organisation because there is no-one left. If family have to stand around watching their loved one getting into more and more trouble and children being upset it is definitely not the easy option. I am a bystander in this as it has been put but it is not a comfortable place to be. Does anyone really think that I want my relative to be a victim? No I want her to speed off into the sunset with her kids to a place which is safe. Surely that is better than what she is in.

Give her a pre-paid mobile and the number for Women's Aid. No guarantees she'll use it, but they do take calls just to talk.

As a PP said the feeling is that the family member is being manipulated by an abusive partner. This is what we think. There was no abusive father but there have been more than one abusive partner so the conditioning to accepting abuse could be in there too. It is known that the current partner is trying and failing to financially manipulate various family members more so the older ones and not so much if at all the younger ones. I am not blaming the victim I wish that the victim would say one word to any of the family and get herself some help not just her for children too.

Our views on the NC are twofold. She choses to be NC or she is persuaded by the last 2 partners to go NC. She is no fool and I would hope would see the way this is so wrong and cutting off her support network. However she is an adult and if she choses NC then nothing can force her to speak up.
It is hard to watch even if not actually seeing her. There has been a recent report from someone non family that something significant has changed about her but again I don't want to be specific to maintain confidentiality