My sister is out of control

[MadSister]

I feel stupid posting this on here but for want of some other alternative...

Can anyone advise what can be down about my sister because I just don't know. She is currently living with my mum and has been for some time due to her debts getting out of control. There isn't really room at mum's and she takes over the house when she is not at work, laying all over the sofabed. She never clears up after herself, contributes in no way shape or form to either the finances of the household or any housework whatsoever. She doesn't even tidy her own mess. Admittedly, re money, most of hers goes on her debts but she still buys clothes and goes out socialising quite a lot. Mum is paying off as many of her debts as she can manage by herself, out of her pension and some debts that sister doesn't even know about (she ignores them so mum opens the letters that are obvious final demands and tries to deal with them herself as she doesn't want the bailiffs round. This is causing mum considerable financial hardship. Mum is also afraid to answer the phone because it's always Captial One or simular asking for sister. She is generally ok-ish to mum (when she isn't having one of her "nasty" phases which I'll get to in a minute) but being as all the above is 'normal' obviously treats her with a complete late of respect under usual circumstances.

When having one of her "mad phases" it's as if she is on a bender of self hatred and she is on one at the moment. She has done this on and off ever since she was a child. Every time she and mum are home together, she either ignores mum or rants at her with torrents of abuse full of F words. She is curently coming out with all the hurtful stuff she can think of such as "I was so glad when your dog died" and "I hated [our stepdad], he was a nutcase" (he died several years ago and was a good and kind man). Also "I've never loved you/have no feelings for you" etc. ( I happen to know this is crap.. she does love mum although has problems showing it.)

It infuriates me that mum, for the most part, just 'takes' all this. Sister has a serious medical condition (apart from being bloody barking obviously! ) and she is afraid for her to move out again as she won't look after herself. She doesn't really anyway; she misses medical appointments etc and obv. mum has little control over that kind of stuff now as sister is an adult.

Sister has a history of depression and suicidal tendancies at times but has had little intervention via counselling/anti depressants because she can't be doing with it. I have arranged these things for her more than once in the past but she never peserveres. She usually gets over her depressive phases on her own although is only actually here because her proper suicide attempt (over 10 years ago!) failed when she threw all the tablets up. (I spent a fun night in A&E with her and my then 4 year old DS asleep on lap.)

She has lots of friends and people think she is the life and soul of the party.. in fact she IS at lot of the time. Some of her friends are "proper friends" who know her history but when she is really bad she blocks them all out. She is actually deeply unhappy about many things; she was adopted by my family at 3 and oviously has issues about that (no chance of reconciling with bio family.. it's complicated so won't go into that) and yearns to be in a proper relationship with someone and be able to have a family. (She is not unpopular with men but she has never has a long term relationship. And I really can't imagine her having what it takes to manage parenthood; although she is a good auntie to my children; she loves them and they her.)

Much of the time we get on; we have similar thoughts of many things but when she is on one of these self hatred benders I (understandably I feel!) get angry with her and try to stop her treating our mother so shamefully; she subsequently gives ME a mouthful and blocks me out and the communication lines are closed between us. As we speak, I have my mum here at my house, with her dog, both of whom my sister has been beastly to this morning. She broke an internal door in mum's house this morning and now mum is saying she has had enough.. she needs her to go. So I have been trying to make her answer her phone (home phone off hook; it spends most of time off hook when she is at home because the lazy cow sleeps all day and doesn't want to be disturbed!).

Mum of course is torn; I made her leave mums a couple of years ago and none of us had any contact with her for several months. This was a horrible situation and we all worried about her... but what else am I supposed to do? How can I stand by and let her treat mum like this? I have threatened her by saying if she doesn't take my call (in which I plan to ask her to get out of mum''s house by this evening!) within half an hour (which has now elapsed!) I will phone the on-call mental health service but clearly she is taking no notice. We have been down that route before; she was VERY depressed (and evil with it!) that time; wouldn't answer door to mental health woman and in despair (altho unwisely IMO) mum called police because she had reason to believe sister was about to attempt suicide again. Cue horrible scene in which I shouted as police to go away as they weren't helping (they weren't!) but which they didn't take kindly too. Very humilating and pointless really. Eventually sister came and stayed at mine fo a while but won't put up with her slobbish ways so she never stays here long.

At this moment I feel almost uncaring about the suicide factor she makes me SO angry... but obviously I DO care. (Although she isn't actually in a real depression at the moment I don't think (mum heard her on phone to her best mate last night ranting about her "f-ing family" (US!) and saying she knows she is being a cow but that we can all got f* ourselves.. nice!.. but point being, she won't speak to friend when seriously depressed.) Despite everything I love the bitch.. I know she is just a frightened, sad and lonely person inside wanting to be loved by someone special. But does this mean we have to take this crap year in year out? Life is hard enough!

WHAT can I do?? This is a hopeless scenario isn't it. (Am a regular by the way but can't wash this degree of dirty linen under usual name!)

God, sounds horrendous. No idea re the medical stuff, but could you get her down to a Citizen's Advice Bureau for some debt counselling? They might be able to deal with her creditors and get them off your mum's back. In fact why not phone them and see if they'd talk to your mum directly, if your sister won't? Worth thinking about her impact on your mum's credit rating - think it affects it as they are in the same house and are related.

Both mum and I have made appointments for her with the CAB before but she won't go They sent an appointment and she tore it up. They agreed to do it over the phone but she wouldn't do that either. When she was in hospital for some weeks (a problem with her medical condition) I took over her back account for a while (she wasn't working then; fired for being offsick too often which wasn't her fault) and I had to cancel a lot of her direct debits as they were just incurring charges when the money wasn't there for them to take. Then she came back out of hopsital; got another job but for over a year she's not even been breaking even. She ends up with over a hundred pounds in bank charges each month (nearer two I think) but still spends money on lots of clothes etc every time the mood takes her.

She is still a spolit child really, just as she was when we children. My mum admits that she indulged her because of her background and because we had so much intervention from social worker/courts etc (not because of anything WE did but because of what my parents had to go through to get custody so her natrual family didn't get her back.). It's as if she thinks the world owes her a living and she is disppointed by everyone and everything when it doesn't deliver! And yet she is not a stupid person.. she has a lot to offer in many ways. She and I have read a lot of spritial books and got lots of insights from them but she admits she finds it impossible to apply it to her own life. I have recently (before she starting on her recently bender of beastliness!) been trying to help her go about a career change; she wants to go into nursing (auxiliary initially) and I know she would be excellent at it as does she (she has been on receiving end of so much nursing good and bad that knows what it takes to be a good nurse) because she has very caring qualities/is good in an emergency/very calm and efficent and dealing with elderly/ill people, kids etc. She is a complete enigma as you can probably tell!!

This is a pointless thread really isn't it. Noone's fault that there's nothing to say but it's a hopeless, miserable situation with no way foward.

Just feel my mum shouldn't have to deal with this; she is 67 years old and exhausted by my sisters horrible behaviour and general attitude not least because she spends most of her time dog walking/cleaning/ironing at other people's houses to try and make enough money to live.. largely due to sister!

Can people just say.. if this was you.. ie you were me.. would you make attempts to get her out from under your mother's roof?? (Regardless of consequences. eg sister's ill health/possible suicide attempts?)

(If I threaten her by saying I'll ring her friends she may leave)

Yes, I would get rid of her. Sorry, but she's a grown woman. I know she's got health problems, but still, there comes a point where the carers just can't cope any longer (and that is what your mother is, effectively). Sounds like your mother really doesn't have the strength to deal with her. And I'd contact Equifax and the other credit reference agencies to ensure they know she doesn't live there any more too.

you could be describing dp's sister with that post.... there are a few differances but the same sort of behaviour and a medical condition which makes dp's parents afraid to turf her out.

before xmas she went as far as to threaten dp's dad with a knife and spat in dp's brothers face

my advice would be to tell your mom not to pay a single penny more for her and point the bailiffs right in her direction next time they come.... sooner or later she'll need to start taking responsibility and realise her actions have consequences. why protect her any longer? your mothers kindness is not being repayed in any way so it needs to end.... let her learn that if she doesn't pay the money back she'll be arrested and see does that give her a wake up call.

What happened when she left your mum's a couple of years ago? How long did she stay away?

I would honestly think that tough love is the only way to go, you and your mum are enabling her to continue to avoid any responsiblity for herself by taking it for her. So yes, I would try and get her out if it was me.

Poor you. It sounds a hideous, impossible situation for all of you.

She managed somehow when she was away last time. She stayed with a friend initially and then found a room in a shared house in the city where she was working. We had no contact with her at all to begin with, then she contacted my DS1 to ask him if he could arrange with me for her to take him and DD out sometimes which is what happened; it was a sort of 'access' agreement but I never saw or spoke to her. (DS is a teenager so she dropped them off up the road). Eventually I rang her (stupid me) as I missed her and wanted contact again (she is my only sibling) and invited her round. She came and things were 'okish' as she wasn't living with mum at that time.

Mum just wants her out; she is here (avidly awaiting replies with me; how deseprate are we?! ) and so I have to think of a way to get her out before this evening. I am so tired by all this plus I really would like a decent relationship with my sister but she causes all this. It's like she gets into self destructive cycle that she can't get out of.

She said to my mum this morning (when mum asked her for the car insurance money she owes; my mum's rent cheque has bounced because of sister's failure to give it to her last week when she should have).. "I only want you so I can use you and abuse you for what you can give me".. that's how horrible she's being! (But I KNOW she doesn't really mean this.. she is just being as horrible as she can possibly manage and coming out with as many things of this type as she can think of.. although she would indeed continue to "use and abuse" as even without the verbal abuse, she lets mum carrying on paying her store cards etc and a month charge to keep her out of course re her previous rent arrears

(out of court)

I'm sorry you're having such a nightmare. It does sound like she has some quite pressing mental health problems but if she's not dangerous and she won't accept treatment, I'm not sure that you can address those concerns.

I think as she's an adult, you can just tell her that your mum thinks it would be better if she had her own place.

I know this sounds awful because you obviously love her, but you have to let her make her own way in life. Obviously, if you suspect she might be suicidal then you'd feel you'd want to intervene, but as she's not at the moment, you have to think of yourselves.

Hi MadSister,

I'm also a regular but don't often like to talk about my past so I too have name changed.

I can only speak from my own experience but I would tell you that whe I was in similar situation, all ties had to be cut. It was the only way. I knew as long as my parents gave in, I could continue to behave the way I did.

I had a serious drink problem which affected my behaviour. By trying to help me at that stage, all they were doing was facilitating my destructive behaviour. I wasn't too bad when sober but I was really really violent when drunk...which was all the time.

I stayed with my parents when I became unemployable and was on benefits. All my mony went on drink and I paid them no rent, I blamed them for my position and treated them horribly. The last straw came when in a black out one friday night I tried to stab my father. He called the police and told them I had no fixed abode (i.e he was making me homeless).

I was put in a cell and because the courts were closed and I had nowhere to go, I had to remain locked up over the weekend. I can't begin to describe that, I was withdrawing severly, having fits and DTs (under-medicated) and thought I was going to die.

When I was released I went straight to a social worker, who set me up in a homeless hostel (a hell hole) and I was on my own. BUT - looking back on it now, it was the best thing for me. My parents did it out of desperation, I was dangerous and they couldn't cope. From that moment I had to address my issues because no-one was there to catch me.

This is only my own experience but your sister sounds like she knows that she's lord and master over your mother. She's manipulating (just like I was) everyone's lives, but she's still unhappy.

IMO,she sounds like she has a lot of great qualities but has to learn some self-respect. As long as she has you and your mum pandering to her, she'll never take responsibility for her situation.

I hope I haven't been too harsh here, you sound like a fantastic family.

She sounds as though she could do with some help. She does sound depressed. All that you have said about not getting up and not taking care of cleaning etc. You don't actually have to be suicidal to be depressed. It can be a chronic condition and very difficult to cure.

Your mum deserves a big hug for taking this girl/woman into her life and caring for her despite her illness.

Thank you for the input. FN your previous situation sounds horrid but at least you had the excuse of an addiction to alcohol and well done for getting yourself sorted out. I bet your parents were so impressed when you re-entered their lives all straightended out weren't they? We don't want my sister out of our lives, but we can't tolerate these mad episodes; it's just not the sort of behaviour you can put up with for long if you want to stay sane. My mum is actually afraid of her and shakes with fear in her own house when sister is off on one.. or due home from work. I have sometimes accused my mum of masochistic qualities for putting up with it; I just can't imagine that I would in my own home like that even from my own child. In fact I have said as much to DS1 who is 14 and these days is aware that the Auntie M that he actually adores has a whole other side to her. I can't hide it from him. He used to just think we were having a falling out but lately I have taken to explaining to him exactly why we have these fallings out as he asked questions like "What has Auntie M done now?"

Shall I text her and ask her to please go and stay with a friend? She has probably realised my threat about mental-health service was empty by now. I could call her friend but I don't want to involve her; she has a young family and it will stress her out and make Sister absolutely furious to boot (and no doubt do and say more horrid things) even if she does do it before she goes!

Things is I don't know whether to say "Go.. or else.." or "PLEASE go, Mum can't take anymore". Neither will be that effective I fear. She is too far away really for me to drive over and see her (although I will have to take mum home later).

Yes Trice she is depressed. I am aware that there is some level of depression lurking even when she is working/socailising as normal and not actually feeling like she wants to end it all. But that doesn't she has to make her family's life hell surely. I know plenty of people who have suffered from depression and they didn't exhibit such obnoxious and cruel behaviour.

And anyway if she won't go on treatment for it or even have counselling what can I do?

Unfortunately I feel that your mum is the one who is going to have to stand up to her and tell her to get out of her house. And then she will have to keep her resolve and understand that she is not helping your sister by supporting her.

Really and truly what chance does your sister have at a normal happy life if she is protected from the consequences of her actions? Your mum is infantilsing her, she has to learn to stand on her own two feet and take respnsibility for her debts and her behaviour.
And I suspect the only way this will happen is if your mum throws her out herself and if she threatens violence and won't leave, call the police. Horrible I know but something has to be done, she can't have your mum scared to live in her own house.

Sorry you and your mum are having such a tough time, madsister. It sounds like a complex situation. Would mental health services really be such a bad option? They can help with issues such as finding housing for your sister and offering support for your mum as a carer. From what you've said, it sounds like your sister might well fit the criteria for borderline personality disorder or/and possibly another condition such as bipolar affective disorder. It might be worth your mum explaining the situation to her GP and seeing whether s/he thinks a referral would be helpful.

Hi again,

I left quite a lot of details out, but I was suffering from depression too. Chicken and egg situation. But, it's no excuse for treating loved ones like that...and she doesn't sound willing to help herself.

Your poor mother. She has to draw a line under it, it's no way to live. It appears she's done all she can within her power and your sister has broken her spirit.

I don't know the ins and outs of your situation of course and I couldn't begin to diagnose her problems. However the longer she hides behind your mother (and you of course), the less likely she is to get the treatment she needs. She may hate you for a while, but wouldn't it be best in the long run if she got appropriate help?

I know it's difficult, it's so hard to be objective when you love the person involved. She's already demonstrated that she is capable of looking after herself so that should ease your guilt.

Again, it was the best thing my parents could have done for me. When I had no other options and no-one to blame I HAD to sort myself out.

Scummy your advice makes such good sense but these things involve some kind of cooperation from my sister even if we make all the arrangements. She techincally earns too much to get ANY housing benefit and she is not going to be able to afford rent with her debts even if she was compelled to pay it. (Unlikely). (She pays mum nothing; not one penny.. nothing towards food - not that mum can afford food very often these days.. she has lost lots of weight through stress AND poverty!.. and nothing towards household bills. Of course she doesn't.. after all, she doesn't even pay her own! )

She may well have a diagnosable kind of mental health condition but who can diagnose it when she won't GO anywhere? She won't do anything at all that she doesn't want to do. And at the momemt she doesnt want to do anything. Even when rational she won't fo anything about it because she is "ok then"!

Rightly or wrongly, I have just sent her the following texts. (I had to do something, mum can't; she is feeling ill with a migraine from the stress and is balking at my mention of the police).

"Could you please leave the house by six oclock, go to a friends and take some of your stuff. Come back when you are over your psychotic phase; its better for you as well as you won't treat a friend badly however angry you feel and then you can get out of this cycle of self-hatred. I thought better of the mental health service; I rang them but didn't say who you or I were. You are not a stupid person; you can't reasonably expect mum to live with your laziness, pay your bills AND take all this extreme shit. I WON'T take it. I will get you committed before you make her mad too."

and then.. (yes I send LONG texts.. bolt on now run out!! )..

"Did you know mum has been paying a monthly sum to keep you out of court re the [ex landlord's] debt as well as having made an intitial payment of £100 to stop you getting arrested?? She isn't going to carry on paying so you will have that to deal with. If you think your life is hard now it's about to get worse because we are going to stop "saving" you and excusing your inexcusable behaviour"

and finally...

"If you don't leave, at first sign of any more shit I will call the police and tell them you are unreasonable and violent (re TWO BROKEN DOORS!) and than mum wants you out. I don't care what you think of me (or what [BEST FRIEND] thinks of me come to that.. wonder what she'd think of YOU if she witnessed you abusing mum?) I DID want a decent relationship with you but you clearly don't with me. And if you think I am the type of person to stand by and let you create this shit forever then you don't know me as well as I thought. I will call police without a second thought if I have to even if mum pleads with me not to. She is clearly incapable of taking action; I'm not."

Oh well.. relationship with sister completely f*ed! But WHY should I stand by and see my mother completely destroyed? Not to mention her house! We have a lot of hardship to handle in our family (life threatening disease/disability etc) life is hard enough!

So you don't think I have done the "wrong" think sending those texts FN? I just have to find the strength to actually DO it (re police) with the sound of my mother pleading with me not to ringing in my ears.

Actually mum puts me in a pretty impossible sitation quite a lot. She is always telling me of the day-to-day awful things that sister has said/done and then pleading with me 'not to say anything to her about it'! WTF?? How am I supposed to NOT?

The other night she was texting me at 1.45 am saying "PLEASE help me! Whatever have you SAID to her?" Contradictory or what? First "help me!" and then "How could you have spoken to her about her behaviour?" I can't actually win. This all drives DH mad.. same thing year in, year out.. and puts us under a lot of stress we could do without given other circumstances

MadSister, what an awful situation. It's not fair for you to be stuck in the middle of it either.

As far as I can see you have helped your mum by sending those texts. BUT, tell your mum you can no longer cope with her contradictions. She can't run to you when things go wrong then blame you when you take action.

From here, there has to be consistency. So, she may have police involvement? Well, she has the debts, she must face the consequences. She has no hope of getting her life back on track whilst everyone else is sorting out her crap.

How old is she by the way?

Your mum has to be strong now, as do you. It will be difficult but you can do nothing more for her. She obviously doesn't take your mum seriously. How utterly selfish, illness or not.

Please stay strong.

She is 29. Thank you for the support.

29? Even more reason for her to be sorting herself out. The longer she's like this, the harder it is to change. She sounds like she's behaving like a hormonal 14 year old.

If she's left to cope (or otherwise) on her own, her problems will become more visible to those who can help her. She might be frightened, understandably so, but no-one is doing he any favours by bailing her out.

I really hope she gets help. It's horrible to be living with such self-hatred but it doesn't have to be this way.

You're doing what's in her best interests for the right reasons. I hope your mum can understand that too.

the texts sound completely reasonable given the circumstances MS, your being very strong and by the sounds of it it's about time someone was..... i do think you need to have a talk with your mom too though. explain to her that you'll help sort it this time but if she continues to give in to your sister and mollycoddle her like this then you'll have to wash your hands of the situation. it's not fair on you or your family to constantly have to be dealing with this.

{{{hugs}}} and hope she does the decent thing and leaves quietly

hi,
havent had time to read all threads, but because of mental health issues/ illness could you try to get her into sheltered accomodation?

what about also trying to get power of atourney, re her finances.
poor you it sounds dreadful, and you must be so torn between your love for your mum and your desire to help your sister.

I think it is for your mum to decide if your sister carries on living with her and in what circumstances - and not for you to decide. By all means support your mum in making her decisions but shouldn't she make them herself?

I don't mean to sound harsh as mental health issues are so hard to handle, especially if your sister won't accept medical help. Is she well enough to hold down a job?

Have had very similar experience with my sister.

Older than me, totally reliant on my mum, also was violent, abusive, and awful to her.

Mum often would "run away" to my house. Sister had severe mental health problems but would not go to doctor or anywhere.

Eventually sectioned, but pinning her down and actually catching her was almost impossible.

I understand exactly how you feel....loyalties allover the place

Would repeatedly tell mum to say no,but she just couldn't-so stressful on you, your mum and whole family.

If your sister is violent, you might be able to do something. It is easy to say, stand up to them, kick them out, but Mother/daughter relationships can be very intense.

Your Mum will need help to get her out. What my mum did was find my sister a flat, and then tell her with the back up of all the family. A fait accompli may be the only thing, but must be done for your Mum's health and sanity.

I really empathise with you, if you need any more help or listening ear, from someone who has dealt with a similar situation, pleas CAT me