My sister is out of control

[MadSister]

I feel stupid posting this on here but for want of some other alternative...

Can anyone advise what can be down about my sister because I just don't know. She is currently living with my mum and has been for some time due to her debts getting out of control. There isn't really room at mum's and she takes over the house when she is not at work, laying all over the sofabed. She never clears up after herself, contributes in no way shape or form to either the finances of the household or any housework whatsoever. She doesn't even tidy her own mess. Admittedly, re money, most of hers goes on her debts but she still buys clothes and goes out socialising quite a lot. Mum is paying off as many of her debts as she can manage by herself, out of her pension and some debts that sister doesn't even know about (she ignores them so mum opens the letters that are obvious final demands and tries to deal with them herself as she doesn't want the bailiffs round. This is causing mum considerable financial hardship. Mum is also afraid to answer the phone because it's always Captial One or simular asking for sister. She is generally ok-ish to mum (when she isn't having one of her "nasty" phases which I'll get to in a minute) but being as all the above is 'normal' obviously treats her with a complete late of respect under usual circumstances.

When having one of her "mad phases" it's as if she is on a bender of self hatred and she is on one at the moment. She has done this on and off ever since she was a child. Every time she and mum are home together, she either ignores mum or rants at her with torrents of abuse full of F words. She is curently coming out with all the hurtful stuff she can think of such as "I was so glad when your dog died" and "I hated [our stepdad], he was a nutcase" (he died several years ago and was a good and kind man). Also "I've never loved you/have no feelings for you" etc. ( I happen to know this is crap.. she does love mum although has problems showing it.)

It infuriates me that mum, for the most part, just 'takes' all this. Sister has a serious medical condition (apart from being bloody barking obviously! ) and she is afraid for her to move out again as she won't look after herself. She doesn't really anyway; she misses medical appointments etc and obv. mum has little control over that kind of stuff now as sister is an adult.

Sister has a history of depression and suicidal tendancies at times but has had little intervention via counselling/anti depressants because she can't be doing with it. I have arranged these things for her more than once in the past but she never peserveres. She usually gets over her depressive phases on her own although is only actually here because her proper suicide attempt (over 10 years ago!) failed when she threw all the tablets up. (I spent a fun night in A&E with her and my then 4 year old DS asleep on lap.)

She has lots of friends and people think she is the life and soul of the party.. in fact she IS at lot of the time. Some of her friends are "proper friends" who know her history but when she is really bad she blocks them all out. She is actually deeply unhappy about many things; she was adopted by my family at 3 and oviously has issues about that (no chance of reconciling with bio family.. it's complicated so won't go into that) and yearns to be in a proper relationship with someone and be able to have a family. (She is not unpopular with men but she has never has a long term relationship. And I really can't imagine her having what it takes to manage parenthood; although she is a good auntie to my children; she loves them and they her.)

Much of the time we get on; we have similar thoughts of many things but when she is on one of these self hatred benders I (understandably I feel!) get angry with her and try to stop her treating our mother so shamefully; she subsequently gives ME a mouthful and blocks me out and the communication lines are closed between us. As we speak, I have my mum here at my house, with her dog, both of whom my sister has been beastly to this morning. She broke an internal door in mum's house this morning and now mum is saying she has had enough.. she needs her to go. So I have been trying to make her answer her phone (home phone off hook; it spends most of time off hook when she is at home because the lazy cow sleeps all day and doesn't want to be disturbed!).

Mum of course is torn; I made her leave mums a couple of years ago and none of us had any contact with her for several months. This was a horrible situation and we all worried about her... but what else am I supposed to do? How can I stand by and let her treat mum like this? I have threatened her by saying if she doesn't take my call (in which I plan to ask her to get out of mum''s house by this evening!) within half an hour (which has now elapsed!) I will phone the on-call mental health service but clearly she is taking no notice. We have been down that route before; she was VERY depressed (and evil with it!) that time; wouldn't answer door to mental health woman and in despair (altho unwisely IMO) mum called police because she had reason to believe sister was about to attempt suicide again. Cue horrible scene in which I shouted as police to go away as they weren't helping (they weren't!) but which they didn't take kindly too. Very humilating and pointless really. Eventually sister came and stayed at mine fo a while but won't put up with her slobbish ways so she never stays here long.

At this moment I feel almost uncaring about the suicide factor she makes me SO angry... but obviously I DO care. (Although she isn't actually in a real depression at the moment I don't think (mum heard her on phone to her best mate last night ranting about her "f-ing family" (US!) and saying she knows she is being a cow but that we can all got f* ourselves.. nice!.. but point being, she won't speak to friend when seriously depressed.) Despite everything I love the bitch.. I know she is just a frightened, sad and lonely person inside wanting to be loved by someone special. But does this mean we have to take this crap year in year out? Life is hard enough!

WHAT can I do?? This is a hopeless scenario isn't it. (Am a regular by the way but can't wash this degree of dirty linen under usual name!)

Mousie my mum is scared of my sister. I understand what you are saying but is she scared make any decision. Yes sister has a job, she works in the travel industry and has done for years but wants to go into nursing (see below). She would be very good at it believe it or not. She is not really evil and has some very caring qualities but this does not stop her abusing my mum and this is what I can't stand by and watch happen anymore. My mum is not getting any younger and is overworked (trying to earn a pittance doing other people's housework etc in order to pay off my sister's debts.) My sister's health is very up and down and she has lost jobs before (not her fault) due to time off sick. If she states her medical condition on application forms she doesn't get an interview. She is reliable and hardworking believe it or not but firms have had to let her go because off sickleave and mroe recently, when she actually got a job in the caring industry (which she wants) they fired her after her first week because they found out she hadn't been entirely honest about time off sick in previous job (understandably.) Current job she got via contacts and has not declared her medical condition so every time she has a 'flare up' (sometimes needs hospitalising) she has to invent food poisoning or something! All very stressful her and she is desperate for the career change anyway. I am furst to admit that her lot is not a happy one but she takes it all out on our mum.

She has obviously has completely ignored my texts. She has gone out but her car is still there; she has clearly been picked up for a night out with friends. I only hope she won't be back tonight. My mum was breathless and shaking when I dropped her home.

Fizz I am so sad to hear of your similar situation and so glad you all got through it. How is your sister now? Is she handling her life ok and independently? We couldn't get my sister a flat; pardon the term but none of us has a pot to p*ss in financially and she is earning to much too qualify for housing benefit.

Mad sister, much as I want to help, I can't really post on here about what happened.

The upshot of it, she is in full time care now, but getting her there was almost impossible.

It was terrible for whole family, until it happened. As I said, if you want to talk to someone who has been through a similar experience, please CAT me.

Thinking of you

Have just read your message again, and it is like a virtual twin situation. I really feel for you and your family.

It sounds like you need support from social services and intervention form a pshyc team at the very least. Also is there some sort of support group you can contact about your sister's illness? They are usually very helpful.

Also is your sister really well enough to work?

Yes she is well enough to work at the moment. Without saying what her medical condition is (am trying to maintain some level on anonymity out of respect for sister; I feel I have to do that and I have posted about her illness before under usual name) her illness is such that when she is ok she is fairly ok, but when she isn't she is in the most excutiating pain ever and has to be hospitalised for pain relief (diamorphine etc! and other treatment; that's probably too much info really.. many with any medical knowledge at all might guess what's the matter with her from that alone ah well). But most of the time at the moment she is well enough to go to work and although, from what she has told me herself, her work collegues at this newish place think she is a bit stroppy and unsociable (due to her underlying general depression and also no doubt because she is unhappy and unfulfilled in her job, despite being good at it and well qualified for it). But for the most part, yes, is generally able to work.

I have tried twice to get her Disability Living Allowance (she earns too much to get any worthwhile amount of Disability Working Allowance) but she has been turned down because it seems her condition, although life threatening and awful to cope with, is too variable.

Also, during periods of unemployment or extending sick leave, she is very depressed. Despite her extreme laziness at home she does want to work and live a productive life. As I have said, she really is an enigma. On the one hand she is the most selfish throughtless (and sometimes downright cruel) person ever but the real her I really do believe, is not like that at all. She wants to be a nice person and cares deeply about all kinds of issues. (Her friends are always phoning her for her common-sense advice about their relationship problems and more!) For some reason she just treats those closest to her.. mainly our mother, like complete shit.

Know exactly want you mean, my sister when not been terrible (which was most of the time)also wanted to be kind and nice. However her illness overode everything, and she was impossible-violent, selfish, moody, angry and aggressive, really awful to family.....because she felt safe with them i guess.

I don't have any advice to give you, but I do know how awful the situation is, and I like you was caught in the middle of it all.
My mum would not stand up to her, because she was scared of her, but also because she would have been in effect givingup on her daughter and this is what was the hardest thing of all. As a parent if my dc behaved like this, I think I would also feel unable to stop supporting them.

However, I tried everything to help my mum, and I mean everything! It got to the point where it was making me ill, and it was incresingly impossible to cope with. At the time I was a single parent who worked full time, and it was taking up my whole life.

Eventually my brother and I backed out of it as we couldn't take any more and refused to have anything at all to do with my sister. It was awful, because all I wanted to do was help my mum, but the situation was just unberable all the time. Fortunately this co-incided with my sister being hospitalised.

I wish I could offer you advice I really do, but all I can is offer sympathy, it is a terrible situation to be in

It sounds as though a career change may make a huge amount of difference to your sister's happiness and well-being and at the same time let her "put something back" as she clearly would like to.

It would be good if she could take responsibility for her own debts, and your mother helping her financially won't enable her to. If she could see CAB maybe some of the debts could be written off? I think your mum isn't helping herself or your sis by paying the debt.

Your mum can be supportive and caring (in theory at least) without letting your sister take advantage of her and be abusive to her. I think she should establish some personal boundaries and stick to them - but obviously she must be very stressed herself so easier said than done.

You sound very caring and resourceful so I don't think this is a hopeless scenario at all - but neither is there likely to be a quick easy fix - you all need to find different ways of dealing with the situation.

I sympathise with your situation MS - it must be awful for you all.
You said in one of your posts that she has been like this "year after year". Maybe you could gently remind your Mum that this has been going on so long, and is unlikely to change. Perhaps she could imagine or 'think' herself forward a few years, when possibly her health is failing due to her hard work to keep your sister afloat and your sister being just as awful, if not more so, than she is now?

It will paint a very bleak picture but do you think this will help her in being stronger with your sister to imagine this? She has to realise that you are trying to help under very difficult circumstances and this has to stop NOW.

For what it's worth, i think you have done everything imaginable that you could do for your sister and it is totally understandable why you want her out of your Mum's house.

One of my close family members has attempted suicide twice in a few months, but has been warned that next time she does this, she will be sectioned.

From your description of her you certainly appreciate her strong points - of which sound many - and praise goes to you to still be able to see her good points when all you see constantly are her negative ones. You are acting for your Mum's sanity also and so are in a very difficult situation. I can only wish you the strength you have shown so far to get her out and the help she clearly needs.

Ive only read the OP so sorry if i repeat.

has your sister spoken to her GP about the depression. there is very little detail in your post but could it be a possibility thatyour sister may suffer Bi polar syndrome?

It sounds as if she has some serious issues surrounding her adoption. you say there is no chance of her reuniting with her biological family which would suggest some sort of traumatic scenario for her there.

I really do feel she needs to seek help for her mental health.
Your mother shoudln't be putting her own financial stability at risk by paying of your sister's debt. When debt agencies call she should explain that your sister is an adult and whilst she may stay under her roof she is not yor mother's responsibility. If she wont speak to them there is little your mum can do.

I think you and your mum shoudl try and speak with her calmly about how she feels when she is more calm. If she attempts suicide again speak with teh Dr's. explain how she is and what she is like and maybe they can keep her in for observation.
Not necessarily section her but just hold out sending her home until they can have a proper chat withher.

Good luck hun.

Hi Madsister
I really feel for you.
I haven't any experience in this sort of thing apart from loving my own mum and sister. The next time a creditor calls and speaks to your mum, or she opens a red letter could she ask for your sister to be made bankcrupt. She may well benefit from the debt issues being resolved, and your mum too, and not being able to get credit for a while could really be an opportunity to sort herself out. I don't know if this would impact on her being able to retrain, but even if not ideal I'm sure your mum would rather struggle to make ends meet and help her forward rather than pay for debts which are not her responsibility.
I hope this isn't out of line, and that this situation improves, you sound like a nice family.

Sorry, haven't read all thread. A bit of experience of mental health problems in my family.

I note that you don't mention your sister being sectionable under the Mental Health Act. This is done by assessment of doctors and approved social workers at the person's house. You as a carer can't commit anyone and it isn't necessarily a threat to use against her, it could really be a help.

Having said that, if she's not already in touch with the mental health services, it may take a few jumps for anything of the sort to happen. Sorry, you may have said already whether she is registered with a GP. If by some chance she is, ring them and give them all the info you can. If not, ring your Mum's GP and say she's currently caring full-time for your sister and can no longer cope - get them to see her and to refer her for a carer's assessment by the social services. That may help to get something done for your sister by the back door.

Saying all this - I have sat in a room with dh being assessed potentially for admission under section, and although it would not have been by my say-so that he would be required to stay in hospital, I did start the process, and it feels pretty horrible. And he is a lovely man so has not held it against me that I did that (as far as I can tell) - this may not be the case with your sister.

Just saying that for honesty. But it certainly sounds as if your sister may be pretty ill. Your mum will certainly be made ill by this if it goes on long enough.

This post doesn't seem very sympathetic but BELIEVE ME I sympathise, i SO do.

she does sound manic in the true sense of the word but im no expert . You are in such a difficult situation as it sounds like your sister would really benifit from counselling or intervention but she is unwilling to try this .
Is there anyone who she really respects and would listen to ? perhaps suggestions of help would be better coming from someone with less emotional involvement? Hope you all find a solution soon ,she is very lucky to have such an obviousley caring family

I think Choosyfloosy has some good advice her thread.

Do contact doctor, and social services, if she is violent to your mum, she is a danger to others, which is a reason for sectioning.

From my experience you need to do this sooner rather than later. Your sister sounds in need of a lot of help, which will not really be sorted by one visit to doctor. If she needs medication and will not take it, she is also a danger to herself. If she won't go to doctors, ask them to come to her.
But beware, when my sister visited doctors she would be completely rational and compliant, so they didn't actually get the full picture, we had to fill them in afterwards.

Know just what you are going through...big hugs...

Hi, did she leave the house? It's your poor mum I feel sorry for. At her time of life she should be taking it easy, not being stressed out on a daily basis You are a good person who wants only the best for your family, & even when your sis isn't being very nice to you, you can still see her good points, I would want a sister like you on my side

Thankyou Firefly that's a nice thing to say in fact you are all being very nice and helpful.. thing is she won't see me as a nice sister if I call the police on her will she!

She was out all day yesterday (not back from her night out on Sat) and haven't spoken to mum yet today. I will text her now (still no credit from mammoth texts I sent on Sat pm!!) Can't really phone mum and ask how things are as she is probably there. Bit worried that mum will not be as willing to tell me what is going on now, as I have said I will call the police next time she starts.

I know I have to do something about this; what you have all said about mum is true; she shouldn't have to be dealing with it, but I am at the start of a long drawn out moving-house situation as well as many other pressures and I so wish I didn't have to deal with it. I know I do though. I'll keep you posted.

So remember that not being able to phone mum, because she was there!

Thinking of you, and fingers crossed

Mum said she is completely ignoring her since she got home last night (and since the texts obviously). She heard her on the phone to her friend again telling her about the texts I had sent and heard her say "It's made me really I can do without them all.." (!) Am assuming that no doubt her friend does not know exactly how she has behaved on this latest mad bender as her friend is a lovely girl. Grr.

Oh well, if she's not speaking at least she's not spouting venom. It's not ideal but hopefully means she believes me about the police.

Mum is today cancelling the direct debits that she pays out for sister (car insurance which sister was giving mum in cash but has recently stated she is "not going to give her, and she will buy clothes if she wants to" (!).. she may have been intending to give to her at some point but tough, we are taking her at her word (mum's rent cheque has bounced after all! ) and also the court costs re the unpaid rent to previous land lord. She is ringing them with my sister's contact details.

She is also not going to pay any more of her store card bills. Turns out my mum has been paying out up to £100 per month for my sister which may not sound a lot but my mum get's a basic pension and virtually nothing in the way of benefit (she gets a small occ. pension from my late step date which leaves her just above the income support line!). So in those circs £100 is lot. She might now be slightly more able to pay off the loans she has taken out in the past (I have only just found out about one of them! ) in order to keep shelling out for bloody sister...!!

I said to her she HAS to do it now.. sister ought to be expecting it as this is what I told her on the texts.. and at least we haven't forced her out of the house (yet!)

I don't know what will happen when the shit starts to hit the fan and sister starts kicking off due to unpaid bills, but she's not speaking to her "evil family" anyway so we'll see what happens.

This thread has given me, and subsequently mum (I hope) the confidence to do at least something about this. Thank you.

Felt I had to add something. I think you are being amazing, a truely supportive sister who can see your sister's good points even when she is being SO foul. I really hope she is able to appreciate how lucky she is one day.

I have had to cope with something along similar lines with my SiL. We didn't have all the abuse and the financial crap but she was a depressed, suicidal alcoholic. DH and I supported her as much as we could, including having her live with us for a while, until we felt it was affecting our lives too much. A great source of support at the time was Al Anon. I know its not appropriate for you and your family but some of their stuff about Detachment might help. Its about stepping back and letting the person with the problem start to realise the full affects of their actions. Sounds like what you are doing and it certainly helped DH and I put things into perspective. I have some of the leaflets somewhere, if you'd like them CAT me.

Wishing you and your Mum LOTS of strengh

Hope you are feeling a bit more poitive about it. Taking some sort of action usually makes you feel better.

Is there a support group you can join for people with your sister's condition?

Think feetheart's comments about detatchment are really important.

Still thinking of you

I think there are support groups re her medical condition.. but that is not what makes her obnoxious (although I have no doubt it adds to her depression.) I have looked more carefully at the links that Scummy posted and I think she may very well be Bi Polar.. she ticks just about all the boxes! But little point in going down that route as things stand.. she is not speaking to me/I am not anxious to speak to her and rattle her cage while she is at least not doing anything except ignoring us.. and I know she wouldn't do anything about it anyway.

She is actually ill at the moment it seems. Appears, by mum's description, to have a chest infection which involves need for immedicate antibiotics to stop it triggering off her main condition. She won' bother though although she may have some already that mum will have got her from last time. Mum is worried that she feels oddly detached from her and disinclined to do anything to help but I can't say I am surprised after the venom sister has spouted at her lately! She will want mum if she feels too bad, one thing she always says at some stage after a period of illness, is how she appreciates mum "being there" for her when she is ill.. although she says this to me usually, not mum and I tell mum who is very touched because she gets so little in the way of affection from sister. It's been a very one way relationship for so long. I'm not surprised mum has reached the end of her emotional tether with her but I don't anticipate it will last long; she would never let sister down at her time of need.

I think your Mum's feelings of detachment stem from anxiety. When a situation becomes too difficult to cope with, it is a survival thing to detach.

re support groups, if you contact someone, they may be able to give advice on how to get medical treatment when she is unwilling, or just provide a listening ear. I found them tremendously helpful when we were struggling.

still keeping fingers crossed for you

She has gone to work today, bug notwithstanding, much to mum's relief and mum has just taken opportunity to ring BT as she heard sister on the phone to her friend last night who happens to live in Australia! She heard them get disconnected at once stage and then sister ring back! She is waiting to check her bill online (got to sort out her reg. details as they have wrong email address for her) so she can find out what sister has spent on the phone and when, but they have confirmed that her bill is £177 so far! She is upset and has no idea how to pay it. I automatically said I would get it out of sister, but that was obviously a rash promise!

She is thinking she might block international calls but she has a friend in the US who she likes to speak to occasionally. Does anyone know if you can just block individual numbers? (As I don't think sister has any other international friends).

Really she just needs to GO.. I know this!

Fizz re support, I tried to get mum some counselling a while ago but the GP wouldn't refer her and she can't afford to pay for it. She can't register for online support as sister might find it on history. I have told her not to access this thread from home for that reason as well. I can just imagine if sister saw this thread!!

I just rang DH who said we should go round there, pack up all her stuff and leave it in bags outside. I can't do this. I know I can't. I told DH this who said what if all this anxiety leads mum into a heart attack or something? (He is expecially sensitive to this aspect as he lost his mum, suddenly and recently). I very much want sister to leave; I know from past experienc that when she is living elsewhere that it is possible to have a more normal and healthy relationship with her; but I need her to go of own accord, not be physically thown out by us. (She would probably just pick her stuff back up and bring it in anyway.. I can be having fisticuffs with her!!)

Our dad, who is divorced from mum, also lives locally and is ill/disabled. DH and I are responsible for him and handling carers etc and visit him daily but sister doesn't bother with him, although she will sometimes shift her arse if he has a fall and I ring her to get there first (because she is more local.) She also visited him recently in hospital but I get the impression she enjoys the whole "hospital aspect" inthese sitations, more than about the family member who is ill, because she so wants to work in that envionment. I had been going every day and the one day she promised to visit him instead so that I could have a day off driving up there, she didn't go, (later said she had had a bad stomach) but hadn't even bothered phoning him to tell him, so he was without visitors all day and it was too lat for me to go by the time I found out.

For the most part she only ever visits him when she wants money out of him, in fact almost without exception. Even on Christmas day when I had to make sure she visted him as we had to go away this year to be with FIL because of his recent loss, she only bothered turning up about teatime and then asked him for the money for her road tax.. on bloody Christmas day!!

DH has visited him this morning (I had been keeping in the dark about this current episode but DH has told him now ) and told him NOT to give her any more money, whatever she says it is for.

I don't know where/how this is going to pan out, I really don't.

I haven't read all your reply yet.

When I said support groups I meant for you and your mum! Eg, if your sister has say depression, then Mind, or Sane or whoever will also support and help relatives. Your sister doesn't need to know that you have contacted them.

Will read rest of your post now!