Has my dad been abusing my mum for 35 years?

[picklypopcorn]

Sorry guys this is an absolute epic of a post!

So I've always known my Dad is a bit of an arse but recently (since reading up on mumsnet about abusive men generally!) I've started spotting patterns in his behavior which have me convinced he's actually been abusing my mum for years. I can't wrap my head around it and think I need to write it down here, am I seeing things that aren't there or should I be talking to my mum? (they've been married 35 years if it's relevant!)

These are the things that worry me:

Mum is incredibly intelligent, she has a phd and had a very successful career, but I remember throughout my childhood my dad making out to me and my sister that her opinions on politics and things really didn't matter and were worthless because "she doesn't understand". He also has a brain on him but since I've become an adult, I've realized a lot of the facts and figures he used to quote at us are just made up (I've since had to realign my entire world view because I used to believe everything he said ). I think he was always insecure about my mum's intelligence and almost verbally battered her into submission over things, so she just stopped sharing her opinion?

You can't disagree with my Dad. If you have an opinion that he doesn't share he will spend hours ranting at you about why you're wrong, then he'll sulk for days over it. He's done this with Mum throughout my life and I now don't actually know what my mum believes in, what her political leanings are, even whether she votes labor (a big deal in our house as my dad is a very strong labor supporter). The first time I ever voted when I turned 18, I voted Tory because I knew it was a single, silent act of rebellion against him and a bit of a middle finger to him and his daily "car lectures" about everything that was wrong with the tories . He is very interested in politics and becomes very sullen and stroppy if he reads something on facebook that upsets him. He has regular facebook rants at strangers about their views on politics yet does not do any kind of activism or ever contribute to any real life debates, nor does he support any charities.... Although if you asked him you'd think he donated his entire net worth to charity monthly and was single handedly responsible for every political march and strike since 1970....

I've never actually heard my mum share an opinion on anything, that's wrong isnt it? It's down to really simple things like whether or not she enjoys something, she won't share unless explicitly asked.

He tries to convince her she's losing her marbles in her old age (she's only 63 and COMPLETELY with it). Like if she misplaces something it becomes a huge deal or if she puts something away and he doesnt know where she's put it, he can strop about it for days and days because "she wont accept she doesn't know what she's doing". My nan (mums mum) has dementia and he often comments "You're going the same way"

Since she retired, my mum barely spends a single minute in the house if she can help it. She's got an activity of some description to do every single day and is very involved with the local community. They rarely do anything together and Dad (also retired) takes very little interest in anything that she does, unless there's a chance for him to show off by going with her. For example, she plays music with a local band for retired people but Dad thinks he's the better musician, so when he goes along mum says she spends the whole time cringing as he shows off and talks down to all the other players. She finds his company around other people excruciatingly embarrassing. So do I!

I've only really discovered my mum has a personality since I moved out of the house and started meeting up with mum without dad for walks and things. We get on really well but while I was at home with them I never remember my mum ever enjoying anything or really talking to us about her life/ day/ opinions and feelings. She's always been a bit socially awkward (something I've inherited!), more shy than anything and has relied on Dad to make friends etc for the both of them. Since she retired though she now has her own friendship group and loves them all to bits, but Dad spends a lot of time sharing his opinion about them all being "a bunch of old dears"....

I remember some vicious fights and arguments when we were kids and thought this was normal until I met my DP, and his family don't argue like mine did. I very clearly remember one night hearing my dad call mum a "silly bitch" through the bedroom wall, I must have been about 7 or 8 but I've always remembered it.

I don't think he's ever been physically violent because when I was 15 I said to my mum that she should leave him, but she defended him and I got a bollocking for suggesting it. Her main defense of him was "he's never hit me or you!"

My sister went off the rails as a teen and never really pulled herself back, she's maintained for years that Dad is a bully but I've never really seen it or listened to her, mainly because my parents have always told me she's "troubled" and "a black sheep". We're all still in contact and since mum retired my sister has come back into the fold a lot more. We are closer now but it can still be strained.

We are all amicable and talk a lot, there's no daily struggles between the family or anything... but I'm starting to think my mum has been brave facing her entire life and we as kids were none the wiser? It's starting to become really difficult to communicate with my Dad, DP says I'm "stiff" around him and cold. I find I have no affection for my Dad really and struggle to converse with him without becoming anxious. I haven't aired my thoughts to DP yet and haven't put this into words before.

Thanks for reading, I'm not sure what I'm after here, has my dad been abusing my mum for 35 years? If he has, how do I process that?

GOOD LORD I FOUND MY DAD.

THAT'S HIM!!!! Completely and utterly perfectly HIM!!

MR. RIGHT

Mr. Right considers himself the ultimate authority on every subject under the sun; you might call him Mr. Always Right. He speaks with absolute certainty, brushing your opinions aside like annoying gnats. He seems to see the world as a huge classroom, in which he is the teacher and you are his student. He finds little of value in your thoughts or insights, so he seeks to empty out your head and fill it up with his jewels of brilliance. When Mr. Right sits in one of my groups for abusive, men, he often speaks of his partner as if she were in danger from her own idiocy and he needs to save her from herself. Mr. Right has difficulty speaking to his partner—or about her—without a ring of condescension in his voice. And in a conflict his arrogance gets even worse.

Mr. Right's superiority is a convenient way for him to get what he wants. When he and his partner are arguing about their conflicting desires, he turns it into a clash between Right and Wrong or between Intelligence and Stupidity. He ridicules and discredits her perspective so that he can escape dealing with it. Here is a conversation I had with a Mr. Right whom I worked with in one of my abuser groups:

BANCROFT: Pat, do you have any abusive behaviors to report from this past week?

PAT: Well, I did yell at Gwen once and called her bitch. We were fighting about money, as usual.

BANCROFT: What was Gwen's perspective in the argument?

PAT: She thinks money grows on trees.

BANCROFT: Gwen said that money grows on trees?

PAT: Well no, not just like that. But that's how she acts.

BANCROFT: Let's try again. What was she saying in the argument?

PAT: She thinks we have enough money to get both of the children whole new sets of clothes. But we just bought all new stuff for them only a few weeks ago. And we just don't have it in the bank right now.

BANCROFT: Does Gwen agree that the last round of shopping was only a few weeks ago?

PAT: No, she says it was four months ago, at the beginning of the summer, which is a crock. I can remember that the summer was more than half over.

BANCROFT: So her memory is different from yours. Did she say why she thinks it was earlier?

PAT: Of course not, she's…Well, maybe she said something about how she remembers she paid the credit card bill for those clothes while the children were still in school. But she's wrong.

BANCROFT: Now, you said that the money simply isn't there. Gwen obviously thinks differently. Where does she think the money should come from?

PAT: I already told you, she wants me to be a magician who can just make it appear.

BANCROFT: But she must have been making points about it. What was she saying?

PAT: Oh, I don't know…She says we should sell our car and get a shit box, which would just end up costing us more in the long run, plus I don't want to deal with it.

BANCROFT: What do you drive now?

PAT: A Saab.

BANCROFT: Let me guess. She would like to trade the Saab in on a reliable car that has lower monthly payments, cheaper parts, and fewer repair bills.

PAT: Yeah, that's what I said, a shit box.

What Pat revealed in this exchange was that each time Gwen attempts to stand up for herself or put forth her views, he twists her statements to make them sound absurd. Notice how long it took me to drag out of him what Gwen's opinions actually were. Gwen naturally came out feeling stifled by Pat, as there was nothing she could do to get her views heard and taken seriously. Part of why Pat is convinced that Gwen is stupid is that he is so exaggeratedly certain of his own wisdom and clarity. Since she continues to disagree with him, he takes that as proof of her foolishness.

When Mr. Right decides to take control of a conversation, he switches into his Voice of Truth, giving the definitive pronouncement on what is the correct answer or the proper outlook. Abuse counselors call this tactic defining reality. Over time, his tone of authority can cause his partner to doubt her own judgment and come to see herself as not very bright. I notice how often I am speaking with the intelligent-sounding partner of one of my clients, only to have her say to me: I'm not that smart. The abuser wants her to doubt her mental abilities in this way, so that he can control her better.

Besides knowing all about the world, Mr. Right is also an expert on your life and how you should live it. He has the answers to your conflicts at work, how you should spend your time, and how you should raise your children. He is especially knowledgeable about your faults, and he likes to inventory what is wrong with you, as if tearing you down were the way to improve you. He may seem to enjoy periodically straightening you out in front of other people to humiliate you, thereby establishing his unquestionable intellectual superiority. When Mr. Right's partner refuses to defer to his sophisticated knowledge, he is likely to escalate to insulting her, calling her names, or mocking her with imitation. If he's still not satisfied that he has brought her down low enough, he may reach for bigger guns, such as ruining evening plans, leaving places without her, or saying bad things about her to other people. If he is physically assaultive, then this is the time he may throw things, raise fists, or attack violently. In short, Mr. Right finds some way to ensure that his partner regrets her insistence on having her own mind.

Mr. Right in some respects is a less violent and frightening version of the Drill Sergeant (see p. 86), but Mr. Right's control tends to be especially focused on telling his partner how to think. His partner feels suffocated by his control, as if he were watching her every move under a microscope.

Mr. Right tries to sanitize his bullying by telling me, I have strong opinions or I like debating ideas. This is like a bank robber saying, I'm interested in financial issues. Mr. Right isn't interested in debating ideas; he wants to impose his own.

The central attitudes driving Mr. Right are:

• You should be in awe of my intelligence and should look up to me intellectually. I know better than you do, even about what's good for you.

• Your opinions aren't worth listening to carefully or taking seriously.

• The fact that you sometimes disagree with me shows how sloppy your thinking is.

• If you would just accept that I know what's right, our relationship would go much better. Your own life would go better, too.

• When you disagree with me about something, no matter how respectfully or meekly, that's mistreatment of me.

• If I put you down for long enough, some day you'll see

Judy, I am dreading the day that either of my parents gets properly ill/elderly

I've just realised that was how my dad was. Fortunately he left when I was small and I have no memory of him at home. I think my mother wasn't able to kowtow to him. He eventually found a lovely lady who had no self-esteem at all, having had a very abusive childhood and she fitted in perfectly, by believing that he was the font of all knowledge.

AF, all I can say is, try and encourage your mother to have interests and friends outside the home. DM was very lucky that her friends really supported her and visited my father when DM went on holiday without him. He didn't make a fuss about her going away and in fact he himself shrank his inner and outer world as he aged. This was yet another symptom of his self-absorption.

I quite understand your dread.

They don't have any friends really. My father drives people away and my mother manages to manufacture grievances against them so that she doesn't have to try and maintain contact on her own terms.

She has done her best to drive me and my sibling away too by being completely unreasonable about various matters at times so she can stay in her bubble of self denial but she hasn't succeeded as yet. If it was left up to him we would be completely non contact.

Sigh.

He sounds like my F.I.L.
He has always been a bully and a tyrant, who put his own interests before anyone else's. Every spare minute he had would be spent on the golf course, then he would knock back several whiskies in the club house before heading home and verbally abusing my M.I.L.
He would bugger off to Portugal several times a year to play golf, yet he never took her on holiday anywhere. His argument was that they lived beside the sea so it was just the same s anywhere.
My argument to that was, well the same could be said about a bloody golf course!
Fast forward a lifetime to them being in their mid 80's. M.I.L had a stroke, which to this day I blame on him, he knew she had blood pressure and heart problems, but he carried on with his whiskey and rants at her.
She was brought home from hospital and we had some wonderful carers to attend her. He even managed to make that all about him! Still throwing whiskey down his neck while stroking her hand and crying.
For 7 months she endured the misery of being trapped motionless on that bed with him dripping everywhere before she finally passed on.
Yep, he even made her bloody funeral all about him!
She did once leave him when my husband was little, taking my husband with her. Since that day, my F.I.L is convinced that my husband isn't his.
Eventually after about a year, she returned and since that day, my F.I.L seemed to have some kind of hold on her. We never knew what.
I was upset when my M.I.L passed on, she was a wonderful lady, but hell, I'll rejoice when that nasty bastard goes to meet his maker.

It would be hard to leave someone after 35 years especially if the left person will be lonely and heartbroken - and the leaver has to live with the guilt of that clouding their future. Also OP will have to visit said lonely pathetic individual or go nc which isn't easy and risks causing further upset to the DM who has done the leaving.
Also imo DM is middle aged and has a fun and busy life, she probably chooses not to express views with a bullying prat like DF around. But DM has got herself in a good place that allows her to enjoy herself and see as little of DF as she can.
I would support her as much as you can to continue this and try to see more of your sis.

Erm. Well. The left person in this case had 35 years to address what a bullying prat he is - and he didn't. So, sad? Lonely? Heartbroken? Too bad.

There is no way someone in op's mum's position needs to be thinking about any sadness or heartbreak if she's paid a very high price for decades to keep his nibs happy. Her turn now.

when I was 15 I said to my mum that she should leave him, but she defended him and I got a bollocking for suggesting it. Her main defense of him was "he's never hit me or you!

My sister went off the rails as a teen and never really pulled herself back, she's maintained for years that Dad is a bully but I've never really seen it or listened to her, mainly because my parents have always told me she's "troubled" and "a black sheep"

Your father is an awful bully as you've clearly seen.

Sadly though, your mother has to some small degree gone along with it and did not protect you or your sister, who seems to have seen things clearly. In fact, your parents blackened her name because she spoke out.

Your mother is clearly a lovely woman with a real strength, but at some point it might be worth looking at the idea that she was flawed and she let you both down to some extent. Her good points clearly outweigh the bad by a long way though. She was just a person though and made some bad mistakes - your sister really does not sound a particularly black sheep and if she was, with your father it's no surprise. I mean this gently, but it wasn't right of your mum to bollock you for the idea of leaving or to call her troubled - or to go along with silencing you both so that you ended up afraid to do anythign wrong.

OP, you have my sympathy as I suffered with a similar dynamic in my family of origin. Is there someone you can talk to about this who you trust? A professional is useful but is there a family member who "gets" you?

Be aware that your DSIS may not be open to having a conversation with you about this if she was branded th black sheep, depending on what your reaction was at the time and whether she experienced you as supportive or blaming.

So I sent the "Mr Right" profile to my sister and didn't say anything else. She wrote back: "That's Dad. Where did you get that from?"

So I explained the thought processes I've been battling the last couple of weeks and told her the Mr Right profile is a profile of an abusive personality type. She said she's felt this for years and because she never became a people pleaser and never changed her self to make Dad happy like I did, he convinced my mum and me that she was "beyond help". I remember her taking him to task over things he would tell us and him blowing up at her when she refused to agree with him. She thinks seeing this as a kid (she's 4 years older than me) made me scared and subconsciously more willing to "keep the peace" and just agree with him. It doesn't help that I look very very like my dad and was always told I was a "daddy's girl" for as long as I can remember... I feel sick about this now

My sister rebelled pretty hard I think because she felt nothing would please Mum and Dad anyway after all that so why try?

I'm not sure how I feel. She doesn't blame me because I was so young (about 10 when it all started, DSis was about 14), but I kind of blame myself. Why did I not stand up for my sister back then? Why did mum not recognize that DSis was withdrawn and hurting and bring her back? Why did we side with Dad and not protect DSis?? Her life would have been so different if she'd had our support. She's had a string of abusive relationships with very questionable characters and latches herself onto these men like they are branches in a fast flowing river. Even when they treat her awfully she can't let go and will lie to us (her family) about how wonderful they are

I'm just questioning everything!

pickly ... would like to give you a liferaft for that river of realisation that's tumbling over you at the moment!

I take dangerrabbit's point about your sister maybe doesn't -want- to talk, but from what you say it's worth trying because she seems pretty aware and she doesn't blame you. She can always say No, if she doesn't want to. But talking to her might possibly help you both quite a bit, seeing each others' perspectives and gaining a new clarity.

Take it easy on yourself at the moment, what you're going through at the moment is draining. If you can, eat enough, exercise and sleep enough ... exercise can also help channel some strong emotions.

I think the Mr Right dynamic is actually so common as to be almost standard, depressingly. I see it played out between couples in shops and cafes etc the world over.

My mum has been Mrs Right throughout both her marriages, the second of which broke down a few years ago. My stepfather has lost all sense of himself and his own opinions, or even his right to have opinions, despite being massively educated and knowledgeable.

He's spent thirty years being publicly corrected and put down. He had steadfastly refused to address this and he continues to cower from my mother as he is basically scared of her.

Despite all this I love them both equally and I'm sick fed up giving head space to their tedious dynamic that they have played out over decades to the frustration and embarrassment of us all.

I'm a huge believer in 'when people show you who they are, believe them'. But if grown ups refuse to see reality then children are not responsible.

The saving grace in this is my lovely siblings who I can all laugh/ bitch about it all and reassure each other that nope, it's not us. It's them.

She tells me he is "mellowing" now.

Mmm. Nothing quite like people who make God a present of the Devils leavings and wonder why others dont embrace the delusion of their personal redemption as their abused worshippers proclaim to all and sundry the truth of it.

They do 'mellow' in later years. Decrease in testosterone for a start. Plus all's well with their world: no 'black sheep' (appointed by the abuser) living in the home to worry at them. The one who is left is well-trained in keeping everything running smoothly according to the abuser's voracious will.

I shudder to think that my dad is 'toned down' these days (well into 90s, strong as an ox - where's the bloody justice??). He is still brutal, absolutely brutal - but I know this is a toned-down version. I grew up in that!

op, you and your sister are both victims of a very damaging dynamic. I so wish my sister had the insight you do

^It might be my own stuff talking but I get quite upset when I hear people say that they never forgave their mother for not leaving because of how it affected their childhood. I am not doubting that for one bit. I have seen it happen. But it feels like victim blaming. Your mum, my mum, me.

Mothers in this situation are victims but also have responsibilities, and it's not unreasonable for people to feel this way. Children need an adult to find the strength to leave as they can't, because they are children.

I love my mum but I also wish she hadn't stayed in a marriage that made my childhood miserable.