Has my dad been abusing my mum for 35 years?

[picklypopcorn]

Sorry guys this is an absolute epic of a post!

So I've always known my Dad is a bit of an arse but recently (since reading up on mumsnet about abusive men generally!) I've started spotting patterns in his behavior which have me convinced he's actually been abusing my mum for years. I can't wrap my head around it and think I need to write it down here, am I seeing things that aren't there or should I be talking to my mum? (they've been married 35 years if it's relevant!)

These are the things that worry me:

Mum is incredibly intelligent, she has a phd and had a very successful career, but I remember throughout my childhood my dad making out to me and my sister that her opinions on politics and things really didn't matter and were worthless because "she doesn't understand". He also has a brain on him but since I've become an adult, I've realized a lot of the facts and figures he used to quote at us are just made up (I've since had to realign my entire world view because I used to believe everything he said ). I think he was always insecure about my mum's intelligence and almost verbally battered her into submission over things, so she just stopped sharing her opinion?

You can't disagree with my Dad. If you have an opinion that he doesn't share he will spend hours ranting at you about why you're wrong, then he'll sulk for days over it. He's done this with Mum throughout my life and I now don't actually know what my mum believes in, what her political leanings are, even whether she votes labor (a big deal in our house as my dad is a very strong labor supporter). The first time I ever voted when I turned 18, I voted Tory because I knew it was a single, silent act of rebellion against him and a bit of a middle finger to him and his daily "car lectures" about everything that was wrong with the tories . He is very interested in politics and becomes very sullen and stroppy if he reads something on facebook that upsets him. He has regular facebook rants at strangers about their views on politics yet does not do any kind of activism or ever contribute to any real life debates, nor does he support any charities.... Although if you asked him you'd think he donated his entire net worth to charity monthly and was single handedly responsible for every political march and strike since 1970....

I've never actually heard my mum share an opinion on anything, that's wrong isnt it? It's down to really simple things like whether or not she enjoys something, she won't share unless explicitly asked.

He tries to convince her she's losing her marbles in her old age (she's only 63 and COMPLETELY with it). Like if she misplaces something it becomes a huge deal or if she puts something away and he doesnt know where she's put it, he can strop about it for days and days because "she wont accept she doesn't know what she's doing". My nan (mums mum) has dementia and he often comments "You're going the same way"

Since she retired, my mum barely spends a single minute in the house if she can help it. She's got an activity of some description to do every single day and is very involved with the local community. They rarely do anything together and Dad (also retired) takes very little interest in anything that she does, unless there's a chance for him to show off by going with her. For example, she plays music with a local band for retired people but Dad thinks he's the better musician, so when he goes along mum says she spends the whole time cringing as he shows off and talks down to all the other players. She finds his company around other people excruciatingly embarrassing. So do I!

I've only really discovered my mum has a personality since I moved out of the house and started meeting up with mum without dad for walks and things. We get on really well but while I was at home with them I never remember my mum ever enjoying anything or really talking to us about her life/ day/ opinions and feelings. She's always been a bit socially awkward (something I've inherited!), more shy than anything and has relied on Dad to make friends etc for the both of them. Since she retired though she now has her own friendship group and loves them all to bits, but Dad spends a lot of time sharing his opinion about them all being "a bunch of old dears"....

I remember some vicious fights and arguments when we were kids and thought this was normal until I met my DP, and his family don't argue like mine did. I very clearly remember one night hearing my dad call mum a "silly bitch" through the bedroom wall, I must have been about 7 or 8 but I've always remembered it.

I don't think he's ever been physically violent because when I was 15 I said to my mum that she should leave him, but she defended him and I got a bollocking for suggesting it. Her main defense of him was "he's never hit me or you!"

My sister went off the rails as a teen and never really pulled herself back, she's maintained for years that Dad is a bully but I've never really seen it or listened to her, mainly because my parents have always told me she's "troubled" and "a black sheep". We're all still in contact and since mum retired my sister has come back into the fold a lot more. We are closer now but it can still be strained.

We are all amicable and talk a lot, there's no daily struggles between the family or anything... but I'm starting to think my mum has been brave facing her entire life and we as kids were none the wiser? It's starting to become really difficult to communicate with my Dad, DP says I'm "stiff" around him and cold. I find I have no affection for my Dad really and struggle to converse with him without becoming anxious. I haven't aired my thoughts to DP yet and haven't put this into words before.

Thanks for reading, I'm not sure what I'm after here, has my dad been abusing my mum for 35 years? If he has, how do I process that?

It's a very difficult thing to come to terms with. My dad has been abusing my mum for nearly 70 years. It is too awful.

Sadly, my mum will defend him to the hilt. She wanted to leave him when we were young - and nearly did. But something dramatic happened and it was all back on. How I WISH she had gone through with it. How different our lives would have been.

He is now her carer.

An elderly relative became 'carer' to her emotionally abusive husband. In the end he died alone while she was out with friends. Since that day she has been a different woman. Happier, relaxed, has lots of friends. It brings home the suffering she endured for decades

"She has acted as a woman of her (and my) generation would"

I was a bit surprised by this as I am of that generation and neither myself nor my friends are like that. No, we didn't know about emotional abuse, but we didn't see the need to stay in an unhappy marriage either. Heaven knows what motivates people to stay in abusive relationships when there is no financial reason for them staying.

I think though, OP, that you should reevaluate your sister. She was labelled the black sheep and you accepted that label for her, maybe it is time to get reacquainted with her properly.

in general OP - I would say perhaps put your energy into having a good relationship with your mother and being there for her. If I were in your shoes I'd possibly think about sending her towards the Relationship boards here (assuming she's open to using computers/ forums etc) if she shows signs of unhappiness, to show her that it's possible to move on and that she has the resources to do so.

My parents are each abusive to the other - they each have their expert fields, my father does politics, medicine and science; my mother does history, household stuff and social stuff. They are each as you describe your father being - critical, overbearing, sullen, stroppy, lacking in self-awareness, brutally unkind to each other, seeing the other as deficient and stupid and nasty - but vulnerable and sulky when criticised themselves. Like you I am "cold" and "stiff" around them. I just feel completely numb in their company - they think I'm too stupid to be able to hold a conversation.

I'd agree with Atenco about reevaluating your sister. I am the black sheep "problem" in our family and to the best of my knowledge haven't done much wrong other than be born... and see my parents for who they are.

"I think though, OP, that you should reevaluate your sister. She was labelled the black sheep and you accepted that label for her, maybe it is time to get reacquainted with her properly"

Absolutely, sounds like you and your sister were victims too being sucked into a scapegoat/GC dynamic.

My mother 40+ years and now his carer. I can't stand him.

To the pp saying not necessarily generational, perhaps not but possibly cultural. My parents are catholic, divorce wouldn't have been seen as an option. There's also financial abuse usually in these situations so the victim hasn't the means to leave.

I've never seen this on mn before. Ive felt this way about my dm and stepdf relationship for 25 years. He's an abusive, emotionally stunted man. Not physically, but that hardly matters in this case (not to denigrate - its all damaging.)

Hes a supercilious, overbearing, self entitled egotistical arse. He hardly comes to family get togethers, and we are happy when he doesn't, because he spends the whole hour with his coat on, waiting to leave. He is so condescending to our mum, and we know she knows. She openly admits he is an arse but as a pp said 'she loves him' What's to love?!

I lost any respect when he recently told me he didn't love me or my dsis and shouldn't be expected to do so. Despite having known us since we were young teens. How cold do you have to be to say something line that?

Its NOT you. Trust me on that.

You have just very accurately described my FIL. The difference being that FIL has no friends whatsoever and only interacts with his family, most of whom avoid him as much as possible.

His interactions with MIL and other family members are exactly as you describe, including belittling MIL's intelligence to her sons when they were boys. She did A Levels, a degree and an MSc when my DH was at primary and early secondary which allowed her to get a well paid job which kept the family going as FIL always worked (largely unsuccessfully) for himself.

He has got a bit better as the years have passed, but is still appalling. Neither of his sons care much for him and he spends little time with his grandchildren.

MIL has a full and active life outside of the home. We live on another continent and she just came to stay for 7 weeks- I know, I know! It was fine and she was a great help. I'm glad I got to know her a lot better. I can barely tolerate FIL for a week.

They are still married and live in the same house. MIL is a devout Catholic and will not leave or divorce him, although she admits that this issue has been a test of her faith. Ultimately it's her choice and we support her as much as we can.

When dealing with FIL, I accept that he tries to make an effort and am polite. When his real personality (invariably) comes thundering through I just shut down the conversation and speak to someone else. Don't feed the flames.

I should just mention that FIL had a terrible childhood, heartbreaking really. I can see that a lot of his adult personality is a kind of emotional self protection. The rest of it is just that he's a nasty, boring, misogynistic bastard.

Support your mum and tolerate your dad as much as you feel it's worth it to your mum.

Sorry for the outpouring, just you could substitute your df for my stepdf. Same downputting behaviour of an intelligent woman, who now believes she is as thick as pigshit because he tells her that her opinion is crap.

She deserves better, as do you. Sorry your dads an arse.

Pickly I wondered for a split second if you were my (lovely, intelligent) DD, I feel so sad that my kids got a skewed sort of family life with an abusive arse of a dad and me being the slightly stupid fall guy who swept everything under the carpet and jollied along pretending all was ok (or that all would be ok as long as we indulged his every whim).

What Marchate said really resonated with me, I'm a few years younger than your mum but there was no real acknowledgement of emotional abuse that I can remember in the early 90s and onwards, in fact I'm pretty sure all the relationship advice I got, and I did seek it, was focused on me changing to see things his way and to almost be the bigger person by compromising. There was always the implication that I was responsible for the family atmosphere and that if any arguing happened I should back off and not escalate. I remember being in tears once at a GP appointment and being given a book called 'Manage Your Mind'... it was useful but looking back, all the emphasis was on me changing, me being the problem. It was so clearly, and sadly, him, but I couldn't see it so I looked like the one with the problem. If he'd hit me I would have immediately realised what was going on.

In fact the first inkling that I had that it might be him deliberately acting this was was via a phone call I made to the GP a few years ago to discuss his 'symptoms' (acting like an entitled dickhead) as I thought hoped he might have a brain tumour (he didn't) but the GP suggested I speak to WA. I'm enlightened now but still here for the moment, looking at the options.

I'm wondering what you think your mum could do, or what you'd want her to do? I'm so glad that you can have a relationship with her now, what would your dad say if you went away on a holiday without him? Do you think he'd ever escalate his behaviour? Do you think your mum would appreciate you telling her what you've said here? She might be so enmeshed in the situation that she doesn't think she has any options, sometimes it takes an outside perspective to shine the light on a dark situation. Good luck to you and to her

It might be my own stuff talking but I get quite upset when I hear people say that they never forgave their mother for not leaving because of how it affected their childhood. I am not doubting that for one bit. I have seen it happen. But it feels like victim blaming. Your mum, my mum, me. We have all donerour best under intolerable circumstances when our emotional states are constantly under bombardment. When we dint know which way is up. When we just want to be there to protect our children. When he is lovely to us at times and we forget. When he has convinced us we are worthless without him. Leaving for the sake of the children is the right thing to do absolutely. But it involves a huge monumental shift in your own self belief and that is so hard. Please dint blame your mum or any woman for enduring abuse. Just support her to find her own path. Few of us understand how hard it is.

Yes, that's your own stuff talking. I am sorry you endured it, but you don't have the right to ask me to rewrite my childhood. I lived it, I was there.

Remember that's an excellent point.

Some of us do understand...and did leave, in large part because we don't want our dc going through the same!

My GP's marriage was like this - my GF (mum's dad) couldn't accept any opinion different to his own.

In fact, even when he was in hospital with late stage terminal cancer, he spent time telling my DP about how useless my DD is and the things he did wrong. Turned out to be the last argument/conversation I ever had with him before he slipped into a coma and died the next day.

That was 2 years ago and since then, I've discovered that my GM has her own opinions, can speak for herself and has a fantastically wicked sense of humour! It's taken her time to "find herself" but she's a completely different woman to the one I knew for the 35 years before.

Part of me wonders if it's a shame my GF didn't die a little earlier... (I wish I felt bad about saying that).

My GP's marriage was like this - my GF (mum's dad) couldn't accept any opinion different to his own.

In fact, even when he was in hospital with late stage terminal cancer, he spent time telling my DP about how useless my DD is and the things he did wrong. Turned out to be the last argument/conversation I ever had with him before he slipped into a coma and died the next day.

That was 2 years ago and since then, I've discovered that my GM has her own opinions, can speak for herself and has a fantastically wicked sense of humour! It's taken her time to "find herself" but she's a completely different woman to the one I knew for the 35 years before.

Part of me wonders if it's a shame my GF didn't die a little earlier... (I wish I felt bad about saying that).

My ILS are the same, FIL is an obnoxious bully. MIL adores him. He belittles her, insults her and I've never heard him say a nice word to or about anyone. He's clearly terrified of her leaving him, she's far too good for him and we assume this is the way he controls the situation so she doesn't. He also uses ill health to control her as well. She thinks she's stupid because he denigrates her opinions and ideas. She will never leave him though, and seems to actually be very happy with him. She's an amazing woman, she'll have a new lease of life when he dies, if only she'd realise that now.

Wow, thanks so much everyone especially everyone who shared their own experiences, it really helps to know this situation isn't rare.

I think as a child of a relationship like this, it's only as an adult that I've seen my Dad's behavior for what it actually is, so I spent the whole of last night running through my childhood and figuring out which bits, in the cold light of day, were really not right at all. Don't get me wrong, there's experiences of my Dad which are very positive and times I remember him as kind and caring towards Mum and us, but I don't think that excuses the bad.

The experience has strengthened my love for my mum, when I think back she's basically sacrificed her happiness in order to bring her kids up in a home with 2 parents. I think whether or not that decision was "right", driven by a generational or cultural thing or even motivated by fear, in hindsight that really doesn't matter much, she has fought so hard to protect us that at 25 I'm only realizing now how much pain she must have been in, and the compromises she must have made.

Someone mentioned going on holiday with my mum, I think that's a wonderful idea. We both love walking so a lovely holiday somewhere we can walk lots would be fantastic. Dad hates walking so he wouldn't want to come!

I'm not sure what I want from this. I'd love my mum to leave him and be happy. Her pension is probably double his so she could afford to do it, but I don't think she ever would. She doesn't see herself as "worth" the trouble it would cause I think. I think my only option is to make sure Mum knows she's loved and appreciated by us, and that she's more than worth our time. I'll try and spend as much time as I can with her without Dad.

This whole realization has helped me recognize some things that I do as a result of him though... I'm a massive people pleaser. If I share an opinion IRL and someone disagrees with me, I immediately back pedal because i feel an inexplicable panic.

I can't deal with being in the wrong or being confronted with something I've done wrong. I cry. Immediately.

I can't raise my opinion about anything if I know someone will disagree. Like at work, if I have a concern about something I can't talk about it without getting panicked and again... crying

I recently discovered I suffer with anxiety, particularly if I feel I haven't achieved something or I'm "falling behind". Mum and Dad were both very pushy and compared us to other kids constantly.

Bah, I'm so deep in my own head today I'm questioning everything!

Your poor mum OP. It sounds heartbreaking to witness. Just thank goodness you've seen through him and can now support your mum.

It seems unlikely she'll leave him at this stage, and I wouldn't advise suggesting it, but to be honest it sounds like her management skills are excellent, particularly now she has such a full a life outside of the house.

Your dad, by the sounds of it, is becoming more and more isolated with her spending as little time as possible wit him and you becoming cold towards him, and he can't honestly have many friends; it isn't too late for him to realise he's alienating people and mellow, but I would keep contact with him as minimal as possible and continue to lavish attention on your mum in the meantime.

OP, I think it's really positive that you're reflecting on how this situation is affecting you. The people pleasing and panic are very common side effects of having grown up in an environment where there was emotional abuse. I would highly recommend some professional support from a counsellor or therapist to unravel the effect your upbringing has had on you and to help you to move forward in a way that feels right for you.

A holiday with your mum sounds lovely, if it's something you would enjoy

Unfortunately, you cannot try and convince your mum of any of this. She has to find it herself just as you did. Imagine how you felt when your sister said your dad was a bully. You didn't believe it and she became the black sheep. That's because thinking anything different made you panic, just like when someone challenges your opinion. Your mum will react the same way.

You can, however, casually discuss other people's abusive marriages and positive stories of how they got out of them just as a way of sowing the seed in her mind. Just like coming on here sowed the seed in your mind and now you see your parents in a different light.

I would imagine 35 years of living with an abusive partner is going to be a very hard thing for her to reconsider. Don't expect any over night changes!! It does sound like her new friendship groups are helping her see things slightly differently as she is embarassed about bringing him along because he does the bullying to others and she can now see it for what it is. So maybe she is already coming round to realising he is a bully too. Give her time and support and discuss how others have suffered abuse and you might see some changes.

The major problem she will have is thinking about who will 'look after him' if she doesn't. There are 3 main elements that keep people with abusers: fear, obligation and guilt. She probably fears his verbal abuse, feels obliged to carry on being his wife and would feel guilty about leaving him. Basically all the kindness of the abused person is used by the abuser to keep them with them. They play on their kindness - make them fear arguments, make them feel like they would be being unkind if they didn't stay with them. Getting past this after 35 years of it would be a massive turn around for her and probably nigh on impossible without support.

And for yourself....

Yes, that is exactly the sort of emotions someone has who grew up in an abusive household. You spend your whole time thinking if you just did things a bit better, you wouldn't get into 'trouble' or be told you were not good enough. You basically feel like you are never good enough and spend much of your time trying to convince yourself and others that you can reach that high, unattainable standard that has been set by your parents and by your own mind trying to make sense of the putting down of your self in your childhood/adult life. You fear anyone having a pop at you because that is how you spent your childhood, so you go out of your way to make them happy.

For me that led me straight into more abusive relationships (was an easy target for abusers) and periods of depression when the strain of trying to be perfect got too much. I also spend most of the day evaluating myself and feeling like I'm failing at almost everything - be it cleaning the house, doing my hair, work, family life. Which in turn makes me on edge and having magic moments where it all becomes too much.

A little bit of therapy is probably the best route for you, so you can work through this mindset and change the pattern of your thinking.

I would just add that at some point you will have to consider your mum's role in your upbringing too - you say that both your parents were pushy, not just your dad. Therapy will help you work through that too.

Very good point rickety - your childhood experience involved both of your parents, not just your dad. Your mother's denial of your dad's abusive behaviour, and minimising it as 'not that bad' because he never hit her, meant you grew up in an environment where what you saw and what you were told you saw were two different things. This creates a very stressful and unsettling environment for a child and that's not something that's easily shaken off when you reach adulthood.

Thanks rickety, I've been to my GP about anxiety already so hopefully something will come of that.

You just described me. Are you me?? I never realized this was such a common side effect of EA households!

I've been very lucky in that I have bagged myself an absolute gem of a DP He's my best friend and an incredible support to me, so I think I may have accidentally, and by sheer luck, avoided the trap of abusive men.

My parents' relationship sounds exactly like AF's parents', except that my father is dead now. Unfortunately, in death he has partly achieved what he didn't quite manage in life, namely putting a rift between their DC as I was unwilling to go to his deathbed even to support my DB2 . The one difference is that DM was adamant that she would not be his career, however much he wanted that. He did spend the last few months in a home.

DB1 is a little bigger that DM didn't leave him when we were young, but she says different times and she's from a religious family. My father just wanted to be the centre of attention, even above his own DC.

It's great that your DM has SL many outside interests; my DM did/does, too.

I hope you can get closer to your sister. I have brothers only, but DM has sisters and they've got closer as they've got older.