Is it possible to not realise someone's asleep

[charlotteswigwam]

I've lurked on mumsnet for ages but this is my first time actually posting something. I pretty much just need some objective answers to the question above, rather than judgements iyswim but to set out the full story...
A few nights ago my partner had gone out for the night whilst I stayed behind (we have a young child so this is quite normal). I went to bed in pajama bottoms and underwear and he must have come back much later (probably early hours of the morning but I didn't check). Anyway, basically I was woken up by him having sex with me. I didn't say much at the time other than whats going on (confused and sleepy) and didn't have a chance to talk to him about it the night after (he came back from work late, then our child woke up so I went up to him etc) but the night after, I told him how uncomfortable it had made me feel and asked him not to do it again. His first reaction was to laugh and say something along the lines of "so many rules"* . This annoyed me slightly (since I dont think its a particularly unreasonable rule) but he did agree not to do it again so I thought fine. Then in bed that night he returned to the subject and said that he hadn't realised I was asleep. I asked how he could not know I was asleep etc and he asked what I meant and it went on for a while. To be clear, I wasn't trying to be argumentative but it bothered me because if he hadnt realised then how could he promise it wouldnt happen again? His response was I didn't realise you were asleep so I won't do it again but logically that doesn't make sense to me. In the end after basically saying the same things to each other I just left it. My two questions would be -

1. how easy is it to really not know someone is asleep (As far as I know I don't normally talk/respond to things in my sleep, and he would have had to pull my pajama bottoms and underwear down etc. For me to not wake up sooner I guess I must have been quite deeply asleep rather than in a half awake state)
   
2. How can we stop it happening again? (eg how can he make sure I'm awake/asleep.
   

*As background to his so many rules comment: we had talked a few weeks earlier about how I find him too pushy sometimes about having sex. We normally sleep together about 3 times a week, and I didn't often say no, but when I did it was never just accepted iyswim. He would keep trying and often would wake me up a few hours later to ask again. I explained (nicely) how this was basically killing my libido and making me feel a bit crap and he agreed that I would (in his words) "be in charge" from now on. This bothered me a bit since I wasnt saying I wanted total control in a domineering sense, just that we should both have a veto if yswim. But to be fair to him he did stop doing it (actually until the night before the night in question when I had to properly shout at him to make him stop feeling me up. He did then stop however.)

[lasttimeround]

This is non consensual sex. - aka rape. He's being disingenuous saying he didn't realise you were asleep. Of course he did he just didn't care. That's horrible. And the minimising makes it worse. I don't know what to say. I'd leave I'd certainly mention police. He needs to realise how far over the line this is.

[peggyundercrackers]

His behaviour has escalated to this - where will it lead to? How bad will it get...

Sorry but I think you need to leave or you need to get him to leave or it will end badly.

[Costacoffeeplease]

He sounds vile, the coercion, the attitude, the rape - this has been going on for a while so you've become slightly desensitised to the situation, but I think you know deep down that this is very wrong. Please take steps to getting free of this loser

[ricketytickety]

You've shown him the tea video. He understands about consent. He's just telling you he doesn't get it so he can carry on doing what he wants. When you beat your head against a brick wall, it's because the other person doesn't want to see your point of view as it doesn't suit them. This means he wants sex whether he has consent or not. You have made it very clear when you want it and when you don't. He does understand. He just doesn't care.

[ricketytickety]

Have to add he will always try and make it 'your problem' that he does this without your consent. He will say there are 'too many rules' or he has needs or whatever. But the basic line is both people should be happy to have sexual activity. There is no grey area. He knows this, he just doesn't care whether you are happy or not. It simply does not matter to him.

[Aussiemum78]

So many rules. You are in charge.

He's making you feel unreasonable or horrible for insisting on consent. He wants you to feel guilty for not submitting to sex whenever he wants it. That is not normal.

In a normal relationship you might initiate foreplay not realising your partner was asleep. Your partner might even respond while asleep. But what he has done is clearly rape.

Would you consider police involvement?

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

Bless you
He's sexually abusive. The pestering and badgering for sex is abusive. The groping you when you are not up for it is abusive. The waking you in the night to push for sex when you have already said no is abusive. And sex with a person who is unable to consent is RAPE and that is what he has done, 100% and knowingly.

[SecretLimonadeDrinker]

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you, how are you feeling this morning?

His actions speak volumes, that he is minimising rather then begging for forgiveness. Please seek some help irl.

[Footle]

OP, it's not just happening to you. There are frequent threads about men like this. Take it seriously.

[daydreamnation]

If my dh came home so drunk that he mistakenly thought I wasn't asleep and undressed me and had non consensual sex, the next day when I mentioned it he would be totally devastated. Your dh reaction is chilling, 'so many rules' A 'normal' loving partner would be mortified, apologetic etc I know my own dh would feel as though he had raped me and would be horrified. I very rarely post in relationships but I agree with all the others, please get yourself and your dc away from this man

[SurroMummy13]

What the fuck?

You told him no, he waited till you were fast asleep then started having sex with you?.

This is rape. You said no.

He does it again, punch him in the dick, tell him to leave then call the police.

[lottiegarbanzo]

He believes there should be no rules about consent. He wants sex he takes it.

That's why he mocks your 'rules' (different attempts to interpret the one and only rule that willing consent is gained first - in normal relationships it's usually enthusiastic consent). And why he pretends not to understand the tea analogy - what he doesn't understand is what it's got to do with sex within a relationship, given that, in his mind, women exist to provide sex to men and men own their partners.

To answer your question, you have to gain clear consent, consent cannot be presumed, therefore it is not possible to have consensual sex with a sleeping person. And no, it's not possible to fail to notice that someone is asleep.

[Lelania]

I've not realised that my boyfriend is asleep before but he was responding and going along with things and actually really enjoys being woken up by sex but you don't. He if genuinely hadn't realised and knwe you were upset he would have been horrified wuth himself and apologetic.

So yes its possible not to realise but it doesn't seem like this is the case.

[Intacta]

I've NC for this.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened and about the dynamic you describe developing.

Please take it seriously even if the pattern doesn't seem to have been for very long yet. I experienced this in my marriage for years and it seems to be a worrying trend in the wrong direction, from what I've read in some other posts on Mumsnet.

The pestering diminished my previously healthy libido. Just realized, from responses to your post, how often I had sex after coercion. It was made out I was the problem; I was always 'rejecting' him.

There were things going on when I was asleep. It was always denied initially sometimes admitted grudgingly (and without any recognition of my feelings about it) and I got so confused. Bed became an unsafe place bit by bit. I wouldn't want to go to sleep before him and I still want to wear underwear to sleep two years out from relationship. It has also taken that long for me to unravel from and to 'name' the sexual abuse and rape in my marriage and get help. It affected me and my sense of self to the core of my soul.

There was a whole take on women and control that would have been difficult for our friends or his colleagues to detect from his outer demeanour. Not saying this would be the case for others, but porn was a factor in his case, particularly as the use was secret. A lot clicked into place when I found out: it explained where a lot of the pressure I had been under came from. Also the skewed sense of entitlement/lack of respect for consent.

Agree with pps that he did know you were asleep. Hope posting here helps you trust what you know and clear your mind a bit if it's been messed with

[MysteryDelivery]

Haven't been able to get this thread out of my head all day. Are you ok OP?

[PhoenixRisingSlowly]

Fuck, this is horrific. If he was a nice affable respectful bloke who never pushed the envelope about sex then I'd at least wonder if he could have thought you were awake (although it would still be creepy as fuck and I'm probably find that a dealbreaker anyway and consider it rape or assualt), but of COURSE he fucking knew you were sleeping, this is part of a whole pattern of crappy, disrespectful behaviour, violating your boundaries and wishes. How awful for you. I'm glad you have the support here and I hope you will report it or at least leave him as this is just NOT okay behaviour at all. You poor thing.

[DisgraceToTheYChromosome]

Consent? I never settle for consent. I need enthusiasm, even if it's just a sleepy "mmmm...". This is from the perspective of 10 years without sex due to medical problems. Did I pester? Did I fuck. Then it restarted. Yay!
But then I made a promise in front of God and people who would have broken both my legs.

This man is a rapist. You and he are over.

[WombOfOnesOwn]

There's been a rash of these posts lately. I wonder if it's due in no small part to the increasing prevalence of pornography involving sexual acts being done to "sleeping" or "drunk" women (usually actresses playing these roles, though I've no doubt there is also "amateur" footage of sleep rape out there.). Men start watching this shit being done to actresses who won't "wake up" during the act or who are happy when they do wake up, because they're PAID to follow a SCRIPT, and they think they can do the same shit in real life. Well, buddy, in real life it makes you a rapist!

[charlotteswigwam]

Thanks eveyone sorry fr not relying sooner- its been a strange few days. OH has been unnusually helpful around the house which I would have taken in the past to be a sign that he was sorry (he never actually sayd sorry for anything) but gaaah no. I do want to leave, but it is very complicated so I think it will take a while and some carefull planning (I know that sounds weak but its true for lots of resons not least the fact that his home country isnt part of the Hague convention so there is a possible child abduction risk). We are not actually living in the UK (mainland europe) so I don't know if its possible to phone womens aid? I found a number for the local equivalent but they were busy when I rang and said they would ring me back. When they did it was a man and I panicked a bit and put the phone down. It occurred to me afterwards that I coudmrobably have askd for a woman specifically so I will try agin but they are only open during office hours so I don't know when I will get the chance. Intacta - quite a lot of what you say about your exs outer demeanour being different is familiar. Mine is a lawyer and really hot on human rights when talking to other people which is partly why it is so confusing.
And no I really dont want to have sex with him at the moment, which he is sort of Accepting at the moment but I a, dreading him getting all moody about it eventually. I think I will use this thread and everyones comments to refresh my memory and remind myself not too get sucked back in when he is being nice, so thanks again.

[charlotteswigwam]

Apologies for the spelling mistakes etc, its my cr**y computer, not that im illiterate

[lottiegarbanzo]

OP

[AmIbeingTreasonable]

As so many people on this thread have said, you were raped, he is a rapist, you must get out but please be careful. Keep posting here for advice and support.