I'm starting to think that our different parenting styles and attitudes could actually split us up.

[sandyballs]

It's been a horrible weekend . DH and I have been together nearly 20 years (married for 10) with 5 year old twin girls.

We have vastly different ideas about bringing our girls up. DH thinks I'm a miserable authoritarian, obsessed with the girls' routine, sleep, food and feels I need to chill a bit and let them be. (His exact words last night during a row ).

He, on the other hand, believes they should basically be able to do what they want. If left to him bed time would be when they fancy it, meals would be a help yourself affair when they were hungry, with endless sweets and other crap inbetween. They obviously think Dad is great fun because he basically has no rules. He is great fun, apart from when he is tired or stressed and then he'll just explode at them, no warning, no build up, just 0-10, causing tears and misery.

We had several heated rows this weekend. He said that he dreads me coming home some days as "the atmosphere changes and everyone has to behave". Total rubbish, I don't expect the girls' to just sit there in the corner reading. But I also don't expect them to be leaping all over the sofa, hanging off the curtains and generally causing havoc.

He also said last night that I'm not the happy go lucky girl that he married. I accept that is probably true. I have two children, a job and an ageing mother. I'm not in my mid-20's with no responsibilities, a small flat with a small mortgage and able to go out clubbing and sleep all weekend. I'm probably not as happy go lucky, but what can I do about it, why is that a criticism from him.

Christmas Eve, after a manic build up, working hard, buying all the presents, writing all the cards, decorating the house, he sat up in bed and decided that I was depressed. "You need more help darling", he said "You're not very happy, I think you're actually probably depressed". "I need to do a bit more to take the pressure of you".
Great, I thought. I wasn't actually "depressed", just tired and bit stressed with all that was going on but I was pleased to hear that he thought he should pull his weight more. Anyway, he continued to sit in bed, contemplating this "revelation" of his for at least an hour. He then emerged to sit on the sofa and watch TV for the rest of the morning .

I'm just so pissed off with him at the moment, but every time I try and broach the subject, I'm moaning, or I'm depressed, or I need to chill.

Sorry this is so long, hope I haven't bored the arse off anyone, feel a bit better now I've bashed this out.

well if he really wants to help you need to sit down and agree a halfway point between your way and his way

agree what routines and rules there will be, and what freedoms there will be

tell him what his jobs are if he's not doing anything. He has said he wants to help and probably has no idea how. Tell him very specifically what you want him to do.

try not to bring any moany old baggage into it or he'll just decide you're depressed again.

Firstly holiday flare-ups are maybe just caused by everyone being cooped up together for too long and the general organisational stress of it all.

Tend more to your approach myself TBH. Can you have the firm rules for the week because the girls have school and then you need routines, set bed-times and so on, let them have some more lee-way at the weekends? For example, if in the week, it's lights out at 8, maybe they can listen to a story tape in bed Fridays and Saturdays after the bedtime routine? If it's no tv during the week, maybe a bit on Saturday mornings - whilst you sleep in?

I throw dh out on Sundays. He has to take dd to swimming whilst I go to tennis. Can you pack dh and the twins off somewhere to do something fun together while you have a break? He can take them off for junk food afterwards if he likes and you're all happy?

I agree about finding a midway point. At the moment, imo, neither sounds ideal but somewhere in the middle would be. I think talking things through properly and without argueing would be a good thing to do and hopefully you can both come to an agreement.

No expertise really except on strained relationships! - I would give January a few days to move away from the season of goodwill, which is always a terrific strain.

How about booking an appt with the GP now for maybe about 18 Jan, go and have a chat with them and get clarity on whether he/she thinks you are depressed (you don't sound it, unless you subscribe to the theory that depression is repressed anger). Can't do any harm, TBH.

Then I would do the old 'I'd like to have a talk, is now a good time' opener.

Then I'd say something like 'I was feeling pretty stressed a couple of weeks ago and I don't want to feel like that again. Some of the things that stress me are [list, but not including any sentences starting 'You...' - tricky one.] What do you think?'

Sounds quite organised doesn't it? You could also try the solution dh and I have come to, which is that he's going to stay at my mum's for 3 weeks while she's away, to do a chunk of work he must do. I'm REALLY looking forward to it which is a bit sad.

I was about to post but Cappuccino's advice said it all!
If you can agree on some routines and some freedoms that would be best.

Then have a good talk about why you're not the happy go lucky girl he married (as he needs this explaining to him!) - then spell out what he can do to 'take the pressure off you'.
Then, perhaps you two could have some qulity time together, and as well as being great parents - you can both enjoy being a couple too

Thanks for all your replies. I agree that a middle ground between our two parenting styles would be ideal. The thing is I don't think I am "that strict". I see it differently to him.

We do need to sit down and talk properly though. We are lucky that we have lots of people who would babysit for us and his parents have the girls overnight occasionally. But I know that I would have to do all the organising and sort the whole thing out, it would be lovely if he took the initiative and actually took me somewhere, even if it was just a drink. I think I do harbour a lot of resentment about the fact that in 20 years he hasn't ever taken me anywhere. I've organised all the holidays, weekends away, meals out, drinks with friends etc. I used to love doing it and surprising him, but now I think, what's the point, how about doing something for me for a change. Sounds childish written down .

It sounds like it's a bit more than just parenting styles.

I've heard mixed things about Relate. Is it serious enough for that do you think? Or just a passing 'hacked off' phase.

But it doesn't sound childish at all.

Sorry to thread crash, but have you really heard mixed things about Relate? I've seen lots of positive references to it on mn.

Positive from MN, bad from my parents. But they were completely beyond redemption when they went, so that's probably why.

Thanks.

I do understand. It doesn't sound childish at all - it's not a nice feeling when it seems like you're the only one making the effort ALL of the time. It takes both of you to make the relationship work.

Perhaps this is one of the things you can chat about - not in a confrontational way, but suggest that one of the things you'd really like is for him to take some initiative in planning things to take some pressure off you and give you things to look forward to. It's no wonder you can't be 'happy go lucky' anymore if you're the only one organising the nice things as well as the only one keeping any discipline in the house!
You're lucky that you have the support of people who will babysit and have the girls overnight. Make the most of it!

Remember though - things won't change overnight - if he's always been this way then you can't expect miracles!
But if you do love him and you want a happy future together take it one step at a time - perhaps you organise the babysitter one night but say you'll leave the planning, location, booking of meal etc up to him. That would be a start...

I think children thrive on routine and reasonable discipline. My brother is just like your dh. His son (my nephew, obviously) has spent a lot of time with me since he was a toddler. When he was about 3 my Mum said she couldn't understand why he liked coming to my house so much as I always seemed to be telling him off. I explained that young children like to know what the boundaries are - they 'test' them all the time, knowing (hoping, even) to be corrected. Equally, it's important to praise good behaviour.
My nephew is 12 now and has asked if he can come to live with me! I did explain that he couldn't as it would make his parents so sad.

Then spell this out to him too - give him targets! 'Once being once every six months (or whatever) I want you to arrange a night out for the both of us' and tell him EXACTLY what that entails - booking restaurant, babysitters etc.

Once you've talked, and hopefully agreed about some things (not everything) write down the things you agree and make a point of both of you reviewing them regularly to make sure you're both meeting the targets.

Often we're so fixated on getting the big things right (mortgage/rent, school on time, bed on time, decent food) that we forget about the little stuff, and it's often the little stuff that gets us down as this is the stuff that actually contributes to our emotional well-being.

I think Aviatrix's point is a good one - an external reference point might help him comprehend that what you are trying to do for your girls is not about control but giving them what all children want and need, routine, consistency, boundary setting. All of which requires more physical and emotional effort than letting them raid the larder and generally turn feral.
I do sympathise. I think it is quite common for one parent to be the mellow indulgent one and one to do boot camp, but I think you are dealing with a particularly sad case of slacker partnerensis
And passing it off as your problem is a low trick. Tbh he is the one who sounds as though he might be depressed - skulking in bed and reluctance to confront tricky domestic situations can be a symptom.

And I meant to add and forgot that if he is reluctant to read a parenting book (common amongst men ime) try him on Dr Tanya or Supernanny - the message about consistency, routine and parental teamwork is the same every episode in both shows, regardless of whatever else is an issue.
Seeing an eight-year-old in full diva princess parent-hating meltdown might also make him realise that what's sort of bearable in a younger child is absolutely not only a few years down the line.

I will talk to him tonight and I will try and read up on some of the books that are out, to try and find a middle ground.

Not sure if I could get him to watch any of those parenting programmes, he hates them.

I was trying to explain to him last night that enforcing a set bedtime for the girls' is not only in their interest, but in ours. It means we have our evenings together, something I have always aimed for since having the children. I have seen so many people split up over having no time together once kids come along and I was desperate to try to avoid this happening to us. Even when the girls' were very small I used to put them to bed, saying it was "mummy and daddy time now", and I remember him scoffing at it, thinking it was daft to tell them that. It was only because I wanted a bit of one to one with him .

Some men really seem to need things spelt out for them once they've got through their initial creative courting phase.

Rather than have to organise things yourself all the time, could you have some regular thing you do together? So, ILs or parents babysit every Friday while you and Dh go dancing or bowling or just to the pub, whatever takes your fancy? Preferably some group thing so the pressure is off. I find eating out together tends to result in SILENCE these days whereas eating out with other people is a laugh a minute.

sandyballs,

the minute a woman says to a man "we need to talk" the man's brain goes into panic mode-suspension and all he will hear (no matter how you put it) is:

YOU (DEAR DH) are useless, unhelpful, lazy, a bad father, a bad dp....and then of course he gets defensive and it's all your fault not his.

Try: working out what you want him to do, then ask him...

Start with something simple like: please put the cat out. When he has done that, you thank him as if it was his own idea. (This involves you gritting your teeth and a certain amount of dramatic flair) But I am serious. Then move on thru other simple things, always remembering to praise or thank. Basically you are retraining him but without telling him all the things that are wrong with him. At some point tell him pleasantly that the girls are going to go to bed at 7.30 on school nights and would he bath them/read story/kiss goodnight/ whatever is appropriate.

Also ask him nicely if he would book a table at that nice French bistro down the road on Friday night. When you are sitting down in the bistro, make him feel wonderful for his brill idea of taking you there.

Loads of people will disagree with me but I promise this is the best approach for this type of dp!! You sound a lot like, me... I do everything and then I'm seething with resentment and completely knackered. DH will be slumped in front of the telly when he knows one of the DC's needs to be collected from somewhere...then I have three choices, I leave him where he is and go do it myself(seeth, seeth), I march into the telly room and nag(then he's seething) or I ask him quietly would he please go and collect dc from such and such in 15 minutes. When he then starts rattling his car keys, I say, oh great that's so useful you collecting dc. As if he really thought of it himself. Just like having another child really.

Should just add that one important thing with this trick is that he is allowed to say no. He may even grumble. Don't retaliate.

Will you try it?

, that sounds very clever, but not sure if I could bite my lip and carry it through tbh! Exactly as you said, it's like having another child. I don't want another child, I want a partner, an equal, one who can see when things need doing.

Maybe they do need things spelling out for them, but it's such a hassle to do so isn't it. Almost easier to just do it yourself, which is probably where I've been going wrong.

I've decided to spend this week doing things his way, in other words, chilling out completely. I want to see if he really thinks our homelife works when its run in the manner that he says he would like. I'm not going to instigate bedtimes this week, I'm not going to automatically start preparing meals, picking up clothes, tidying toys. I'm going to put my feet up for a week and see what happens. I will find it very difficult as I hate to live in chaos, which I know it will be. But I want him to see how life would be if left to him. I also know the girls' will be knackered and play up, which is probably a bit cruel on them, just to prove a point to their father.

Respect, Sandyballs! How long before he falls on his knees and begs for his old life back, do you think?

Sounds good, Sandyballs, as long as it won't mean him taking his temper out on them more?