Toxic, manipulative but frail elderly mother

[TheIncongruousPheasant]

I tried to write a post, but it's so long that nobody would ever be able to read it. I've had to split it into two massive, unreadable posts, and it doesn't get across even a quarter of it. My MH is shot to pieces. Please don't feel obliged to read it. I've also changed my name, so please don't say if you recognise me.

Mum is 86, with minor cognitive impairment (lifelong, not age-related). I live nearby and help her, along with my sister. Mum can be loving, but is also self-centred, childish and manipulative. When we were children she was generally neglectful, and enabled/excused physical and sexual abuse by family members. Until now, I’ve found helping her to be a healing experience, but lately I’m struggling. I think I’m losing a fiction I’d built of a happy family, being a good girl, looking after Mum ‘as she looked after me’, when really she didn’t.

After an illness last year, Social Services helped us arrange a supported housing place, as even before this she’d only been coping with lots of support from us, and she’s now very unsteady on her feet. She doesn’t like it and wants to live alone, or with one of us. The supported place provides meals, housekeeping and an emergency warden. She has carers for washing and dressing, after many episodes of turning them away and calling us to wash her instead. Dsis and I do the rest (e.g. replenishing toiletries, changing sheets, admin), and visit her daily.

But her demands for transport are breaking us. She can’t drive, or walk outside unsupported, and refuses a frame or stick so it must be a person. She relies on us to take her places. Under normal circumstances this would be fine. But for Mum’s whole life she’s operated entirely on her own terms, with no consideration of others. She doesn’t make arrangements or agree convenient times like other people. Everything is spur of the moment. She won’t make appointments, even with the doctor: just turns up, expecting to be seen. (This works for her, as people usually cave after she’s been there a while.) Now that she’s old, she still wants this spontaneity – but expects us to facilitate it, and gets us to do it by bullying, manipulating, guilt-tripping and outright lying.

When she wants to be taken somewhere she never asks in advance. She just rings, wanting me to come now. Or I might arrive for a different reason, and find her all ready to be taken to the optician’s or wherever. Simple enough with advance notice and an appointment: hours of awkwardness and embarrassment with Mum. Often I have to refuse, because it doesn’t work with something else I have to do. I’ve tried explaining that I’m happy to take her anywhere, as long as she lets me make an appointment, or asks me earlier to be sure that it works for me. I’ve tried ringing or arriving at a regular time each day, asking if there’s anywhere she wants to go. She says there isn’t – and then rings later on, expecting me to arrive. And often I just can’t.

But if I don’t come, she very often sets off walking by herself. She’s been hurt many times after falling in the street. She then displays her injuries and tells everyone she fell when going to buy the paper (or whatever) by herself, ‘because I wouldn’t come’. The supported complex doesn’t provide care and she is free to come and go, so the staff can’t stop her and have no responsibility to watch her. They tell me that one day she’ll be seriously injured.

If I were your partner or daughter I´d be really flipping pissed off and resentful watching my mother be remotely controlled and run ragged like this.

Dh is furious, but offers suggestions that on the surface seem simple: 'Just don't go!' when my mind is too full of crap to see things that way. Or he suggests, when Mum's friend is being dramatic and inconsistent, that he goes round and has a word with him. I know what would happen - friend would have another angina attack and his daughter would be yelling on the phone again. My dds are young, but have dramatically gone off Granny over the past few years. It's a pity, because I nurtured a good relationship between them, even though I was always enabling and keeping up appearances. They see it clearer now. Dd1 recently turned 17 and Mum offered to pay for one of her driving lessons. I accepted, but then realised she probably has an eye on her as another on-call taxi service. That won't be happening.

Interestingly, it's just occurred to me that Mum didn't see her own mother from one month to the next, when she was elderly. (She lived with my divorced Uncle, who cared for her.)

My grandmother is a few years younger than your mum, but sounds very similar and like this level of madness is what she will eventually graduate to. Have no answers as she is a strain on the whole family but wanted to chime in and say I get why you feel you can't lie to her. My mum is exactly the same- she and her sister absolutely believe in their hearts if not in their logical minds that my grandmother knows when they're lying. This means they often make life harder for themselves than it needs to be and end up dealing with her when they could avoid it because they can't lie to her. It's very faulty thinking and something that my mum is trying to deal with via therapy at the moment. The inability to do anything but tell her the absolute truth and the guilt she feels when she doesn't for some reason is a real burden in my mums life.

That's an interesting point about lying. I also don't feel entitled to lie to Mum for any reason, even if it's a good reason. Not so much because I think she'll know - more because I feel that, by lying, I have automatically put myself in the wrong and am not after all entitled to whatever it was (e.g. a day off by pretending to be ill) that I lied to achieve.

Toxic parents by Susan Forward. It will open your eyes to the way your mother has also abused you for your entire life and is sill doing so now and hopefully help you to lose the FOG.

Your sister is a grown adult who can make her own choices. Apart from buying here a copy of the book as well you owe here nothing - you do not have to continue to be abused by this woman simply because she chooses to do so.

I cannot believe your still in this woman life, after everything she did/didn't do when you were a child.

Your husband advice is the best, just don't see her. I am a care worker and if she has mental capacity, then just leave her to it. If you cant just leave her then what advice do you want here? Eventually she will have a fall that will land her in hospital and in a nursing home, but that's not your problem.

Rebecca, I'm not sure yet what advice I want. Maybe some pointers (like the Toxic Parents book - thank you TJ) that will help me sort out my head. These four days without seeing her have been the first chance I've had to get some detachment. It's nearly impossible to explain how full of chattering nonsense my mind is. I suppose what I'm looking for is clarity from strangers. Yes, I'm currently thinking/saying that I 'can't just leave her', but perhaps I can, or at least reduce things to a manageable level, even if at present that seems impossible. It's useful to have such a clear take on it from a care worker!

You have to take control of your actions.

Just stop it. Turn your phone off.

If she falls after setting off on her own it's her own fault. You have had a life time of being conditioned and bullied. Will this only end when she finally dies?

I've been NC with my mother for 15 after multiple 'fake' hanging attempts and similar behaviour. Now, I'm not saying for you to go NC but you need to stop being that little girl. Have you thought about seeking profession help ?

I've thought about counselling but - like writing this OP - there's just too much in there and I'm scared to take the lid off it. It seems impossible to explain it to anybody who doesn't know Mum and our family. So I've always preferred to shut it away in a box. Interestingly, the only one of the three of us who's had counselling is Dsis2, who ended up moving to the Far East.

The notion of it only ending when Mum dies - to be honest, that is the only way I've ever imagined it ending. It isn't a good thought, because part of me is looking forward to freedom in the future, and the other part thinks that it will take my Mum's death for it to happen. I'd love things to improve before that, but can't imagine distancing myself without massive fallout, and can't see myself having a good relationship with Mum afterwards. I suppose I shouldn't care about that. It's the difference between head and heart, I suppose.

That's another reason I feel responsible for my sister - although I take it on board that really, I'm not. She is in her 60s and in poor health, with a chronic illness that will only get worse. I know that anything could happen to any of us, but I have time and health that she doesn't have, and the chance of a good life after Mum is gone. I worry that this will all take up the last few healthy years that Dsis has left. I know that isn't my responsibility, but it's hard to see things objectively even when that would be the best thing. I'm seriously considering getting two copies of that book.

Morning op, toxic parents is a really good read. You can down load it. There is a bit about still continuing with the guilt/manipulation from the grave as its far more deeper than we realise. I've had our councilling and yes it did take the lid of a lot of things and tbh I didn't last that long at it but what did help is in the sessions I did have the therapist could see what I was talking about. And that bloody helped. A professional being able to put a label on things really helped me start to help myself.

I've just found out my mother moved years ago and no one knows where. I can see her sat there thinking ' this will show them/her they won't be able to find me and they will worry' - and I am. She is still managing to manipulate me after 15 years NC.

Read toxic parents. It's a real eye opener. X

It seems to me it's the guilt which is weighing you down.

You've made a decision now to temporarily ignore her demands for a few days but the thought of your cousins opinions, your sister, your neighbours, your mothers friends are crippling you.

I don't really know what to suggest, it sounds an awful situation.

You could either develop a thick skin and refuse to care what they think. Or you tell them all explicitly what she is like and why you're doing what you're doing......though it sounds like you've already done the latter? But how firm/clear have you been?

I would be tempted to tell your mother you will be available for her between x hours on x days and that you will not go and see her, do anything for her at any other point. And just refuse to engage with her if she tries asking for anything at other times. Real strict timetable.

If she chooses to then walk off somewhere because you won't take her then that is her choice as an adult. Do not feel guilty. Don't be dragged into the drama of looking or even discussing cut knees. If she starts telling you about a fall because you wouldn't take her somewhere. Just firmly say, "I will take you anywhere on x day only, you need to wait until a time I can take you". And then change the subject. One sentence response and then ignore.

I completely get you, OP. What you've described is almost identical to the dynamic between Dsis, me, and our mother. My Dsis lives round the corner from DM, and goes in to her three or four times a week, for an hour at the most each time. I live a couple of hundred miles away, and have DM to stay for a week six times a year. I haven't recovered from her last visit, and her next one is looming large on the calendar. It's awful, but I do it to give my lovely Dsis a break - and, out of fear, obligation and guilt of course.

I'm not ready to 'lift the lid' on my feelings about it yet. It's too painful. I know what I would need to do, but the FOG is too heavy to bear. I'm completely paralysed with it. My Dsis has been in therapy for over a year, and is doing brilliantly with putting strict boundaries in place. Coincidentally (?) mum did indeed fall and break her hip around the time of Dsis pulling back from her - that put us back into line.

I'm sorry, I have no useful words of advice, other than to say you're not the only one in this situation. I wish it was as simple for me as to say 'just don't go', or 'she's an abuser, cut contact' - but it doesn't feel as cut and dried as that. My mum's had a fairly traumatic life and, by all accounts, a hellish upbringing - to add to her pain at this stage of her life feels cruel, whether she 'deserves' it or not. From time to time, she'll throw me a snippet of love and affection, and I'm reeled back into thinking that if I just reach out to her, it'll all be ok. Written down, I see how ridiculous that sounds. Dsis and I are mid-forties, mum is mid-seventies. It feels like this will only end once mum dies. And so the guilt goes on.

I really feel for you, OP, and I hope you and your Dsis can find some peace and resolution to this.

Morning! Thank you. Simon, you're right, and the guilt is the absolute worst. It's especially ironic to run yourself ragged for someone, to the detriment of your own life, and feel mainly guilt about it, with their encouragement. And to face mainly criticism and judgement from the wider family, as well, which addresses your second point.

I have never fully explained it to the extended family, because I find it nearly impossible. It took me all afternoon to cut my first two posts down to that size. It's why I've never tried counselling. There's just so much. I can't explain the wood for the trees IYSWIM. If I try, it sounds like hysterical ranting, and tbh it's impossible to say it out loud because I get so upset trying to explain. I feel nobody can ever fully understand. It's a bit like what I said about feeling that I'm constantly making excuses - I'd just sound hysterical and it would have no impact. If only I could find a succint form of words to explain it, perhaps I'd try. It's probably another reason why I'm so caught up with my dsis. One can say to the other 'You know what Mum's like', and the other one does.

Mum was one of a huge family, and most of them all had huge families. She is now one of the few of that generation left alive. She was particularly close to three of her sisters and one brother now dead, who each had large families, one in Australia and one near here. Those sets of cousins seem to idealise Mum. TBH I'm not sure there'd be much point getting them to see my POV anyway, as they're members of a fundamental Christian sect that has very set opinions on the duties of women.

The logical answer to that is that these aren't people whose opinions I should value, anyway! I can start with doing my best to dismiss those. Deep down (I can't speak for Dsis), I know that I came back, ready to do my best for Mum, and I was loving, thoughtful and kind.

this could easily go on for another ten years (I say that from experience of an elderly family member who has just died at 95, who was remarkably similar.)

Age concern helped my family a lot - have you been in contact with them?

As others above have said, boundaries! Plus, talk to the sheltered housing manager/staff. Uou don't have to go into too much emotional detail but make sure they know the lie if the land.

We dealt with this by being constantly positive, no nonsense taking etc. It was very very hard. But you have to stop enabling her.

Sorry that made it sound like it's your fault and of course it's not!
You will run yourself ragged and nothing you do will ever be enough ... Take some time to write down a list of things you can reasonably do - visiting, laundry, appointments etc and do only those.
It's also worth speaking to the GP etc to make sure they understand the situation. We did this and it helped a lot - I don't know what the GP said to her but that generation tend to listen to doctors!
to you. Remember to look after yourself!

Yes, it's likely that we're in for the long haul. Despite her recent illness she is physically healthy. The biggest risk to her health is her own behaviour. One thing I'm considering is the fact that in 5 more years my dds would both have left school, and there would be no reason for us to stay here apart from Mum. At that point, if she was still alive, I'd have to decide whether to stay for her (well, for Dsis), or cut my losses and leave. That kind of logical thinking seems terribly callous, though.

I'm pretty sure that the housing manager and staff, whilst not caught up with her emotionally, will be getting a very good measure of her in other ways. I did have a word with the manager last week, after her latest fall (the hospital appointment/cut knees debacle), just to explain if she was a bit worse on her legs for a while. She said that as Mum is free to come and go, they can't stop her going out, although sometimes they see her setting off, and remind her that she isn't meant to do that. 'I told her that she mustn't go out on her own - she should call you!' I explained that she does that I can't always come at short notice, hence the going out, but there wasn't much she could say, as Mum has capacity and they're quite restricted in what they can and can't do.

Try reading "The Emotionally Absent Mother".

And book a holiday for a week, with your dsis.

You need to prioritise youself, your dc and Dh.

You say that your dc will have left school soon. It sounds like you've spent a sizeable chunk of their childhood running round after your mother which isn't fair on you!

Threads like this remind me of how glad I am that im NC with my mother!

Oops, posted too soon.

My DM had a similar relationship with her own DM (who was actually her Step Mum and spent a lifetime making sure my mum was grateful for the fact).

I spent my teens watching mum run around after SGM. Constantly at her beck and call. To the extent that we, her dd's, were neglected om an emotional/ nurturing level. Mum just didn't have the time or emotional capacity to put us first.

It all came yo a head for me at the age of 34. I had just had my first child. I was in my knees. On the brink of PND. I begged for her help. She promised to come the next day to help out. She didn't. Nan had a "crisis" so mum went there. We've never been that same since.

I would imagine the staff know what's what.

We had to deal with several instances of night wandering (because the neighbours were spying on her.. / other odd excuses.) one resulted in a broken hip...

It's tough but the only way to keep your sanity is to stop letting her do it. And be a broken record. 'I know you have cut your knee but I told you not to X... The doctor won't see you without an appointment, I'll book you one but I won't take you there now.' Etc etc.

Channel your inner Matron - that's the attitude you need. Caring but no nonsense.

Yes, it's been throughout my dds' childhood, since dd1 was 2 and dd2 was born. I do entirely prioritise the girls over Mum, though. I make sure it all comes out of me rather than them IYSWIM, and I've never, ever put Mum first if the girls needs me - on that one point I have a backbone of iron.

Of course, she sees this as me indulging them to the point of 'being obsessed with them'. As I said earlier, she seems jealous, especially when I have to refuse one of her summonses because I'm giving one of the girls a lift somewhere. She does it by overdramatic praise: 'Well, when it comes to those girls you'll have no regrets. I've never met anyone who does as much for her children as you do...'

But that has been one of the worst things. Spending time with my girls, looking after them, putting them first, and feeling BAD about doing that. As if I'm skulking away to look after my children. Dsis sometimes mentions this as well - that I have my family to look after and she doesn't, therefore she's the one that the buck stops with where Mum is concerned. I honestly sometimes feel that I'm using my dds as an excuse not to help Mum.

Finola, I'm sorry that your Mum left you stranded to rush to your Nan instead. She shouldn't have done that .

But I can also see why she did. It's hard to make the right decisions when you're being ripped in half.

It's a shame she's not in a nursing home where tighter controls are kept on the wandering. Though obviously you didn't know she'd be this bad in sheltered housing. Would a nursing home be affordable for you all in the future?

This sounds callous of me, but her breaking a hip would help your situation. She'd be in hospital and visiting hours are set, and you could use the opportunity to reassess whether sheltered accommodation is suitable for her going forward if her mobility isn't great.

In the meantime, I've been there. I've also had family members who martyred themselves like your sister and I was worried sick about them. But I did recognise ultimately that this was their CHOICE. They had their own issues of warped duty and no amounts of stern chats from me ever made a dent in them.

Ultimately what ended it for me was death. Though once they went into a nursing home the emotional burden eased somewhat. Not altogether, as visiting every day was mandatory of course, but just being able to leave and be free at the end of each visit made a huge mental difference.

It strikes me that you are concerned by other people thinking badly of how you treat her, that you need reassurances from both your mother and people outside the close family that you are a good and loving daughter. You are craving an approval that will never come, because to give it your DM and others would renounce all their power over you. You are a good person. You know that because of your DH and DC and because you have tried so hard all these years. You need distance and perspective and I think the advice you have had is brilliant. I feel so much for you: you sound worn out. Just sack these nightmares off. Fuck em all!

I agree, as we're speaking plainly, that if she were more restricted either in mobility or in accommodation, things would be much easier. It's terrible to think of how much better in many ways life would be if your mother were dead or in hospital.

We could afford a nursing home, as Mum would get full funding and we could manage any top-up between us. However, she officially has capacity and wouldn't agree to any arrangement where she couldn't come and go. But certainly if she keeps up the way she is, and has a few more falls, I imagine her capacity in respect of her own safety would have to be questioned, but I'm not sure how that works. I might express concern to her GP - I know he can't discuss it but is allowed to listen.

The truth is that her behaviour hasn't changed - only her physical capacity. She's behaving exactly as she's done for her entire life, but previously she was able to do it all on her own steam and now she can't. I understand how it must be frustrating to lose your freedom and depend on others to get around. But she wants a level of spontaneity that nobody, young or old, can have. If you or I wanted to get our hair cut, we'd make an appointment. And (bar emergencies) if we wanted to visit someone or ask for their help, we'd arrange it around what suited them. Nobody has that degree of freedom.

srsly, that is very touching. Thank you - and you're right that I seem to be craving approval that will never come. Bit sad at my age to need to be told I'm a good girl, especially by people whose opinions I shouldn't value. Definitely something to let go of.