Having a relationship with a difficult parent

[WaterWorld]

Have had to name change due to relatives being on this site also.

My DFather is of the opinion that he is head of the family. He is retired and married to DM, they have two adult married children and one single, who in turn have their own children. Head of the family (for him) translates to grand gestures like buying holiday tickets so we all holiday together, demanding of his daughters husbands that they provide well for them, announcing at the dinner table his status of head of the family, interfering with friends and family of his children, giving gifts and determining how and when they are used - you get the idea).

My DM and I are guilty of not tackling DF (definitely easier not to argue), I would generally omit to tell him of anything controversial and i have always struggled to openly 'disobey' things e.g. a holiday invitation! DSibling has enjoyed many more distant years having moved away at 18, complied less and suffered masses of 'bad press' as a result, though since having her own children has turned into the prodigal daughter and is back in the fold.

I on the other hand am currently out of the fold. My DH will not tolerate DF's interference in his own life, relatives and finances. I agree it is intolerable and our position is a joint one. Henceforth the relationship with my DF has broken down. Life is quieter and calmer without DF's interference, moods and vocal judgements. It has been a year. We are still in touch with DM. My siblings listen to DF's complaining about us and are prone to trying to speak to me without my DH present to try to persuade me of things against my better judgement.

Fine. Except that my 7 year old DS loves and would like to see Grandad.

This is Grandad who is currently making 'will' related threats to me, and personality assassinations because we are not falling into line with his requirements.

The current verbal torrent of 'issues' with me stems from me making an invitation to Grandad and Grandma to meet them at a suitable attraction in the school holidays to facilitate some positive contact for DS.

Grandad made a counter offer to visit his house (me and DS only DH not welcome) and said no to our suggestion.

DH and I do feel for DS and are strong enough to try to facilitate a positive day out for DS's benefit but consider neutral territory essential.

What to do?

A seven year old really wants to:
Have just ice cream for tea
Play"grandctheft auto
Play football in the road
Spend time with an adult who he can't identify as emotionally abusive
Not brush his teeth
Go to bed when he likes
Be spiderman when he grows up
Putting the child first is not always conceeding to what they say they want..
Nor is extended abusive family better than no extended family
Or are you saying that, against all evidence, the grandfathers abusive behaviour, in this instance, is going to be limited to particular individuals, and he will be able to normalize it with this one child.
Which means, he is choosing to be abusive to particular individuals, and that means he is for to have a relationship with a child?
I just don't follow the logic ? Please explain.

Put your child first like your instincts are telling you - and keep him away from this bullying controlling man. Not all grandparents (or parents) are capable of living up to the sweet, nurturing, loving stereotype.

It too me until I as 50 to realise and finally break completely from my father who is similarly very controlling. My children have not seen him or my mother for 3 years.

He is controlling with my mother and essentially a narcissist and his brother and his SIL also now refuse to speak to him.

My father had started to be controlling with my children and that was the end.

They are not people you can change. You have to cut contact. It is very hard and there is a strong temptation to relent and they will 'beg' you to return to the fold, they are 'heartbroken' but they never change. Your return is only a chance to get you back under control.

Well done OP. It sounds like you are handling it with your DS really well.

I just think family break ups are too common in this country and the little ones suffer most. He could just go for lunch or McDonald's or a milkshake and the park/ cinema. What's the big deal? Gm would be there too, maybe his cousin. Of course, if the child ever started to feel uncomfortable then it would stop... But the gs "loves"dg and will grow up with nice memories to cherish. I think op and her dh are being v unselfish here and that's to be encouraged. The child does not need t o be aware of the scope of the problem yet ( or indeed ever). He will find that out one day. Too much tension for kids these days to cope with. But this need not be adding to it. Op's mum can pick him up etc.

Just once or twice a year would be enough for him not to lose all contact. Might also stop will omission threats! Might be more likely to at least leave his money to Dgs! I would just try to keep it a bit sweeter. I have been in a similar situation.

I just think family break ups are too common in this country and the little ones suffer most.

The OP is now reaping the misery of her own mother applying that logic to her own marriage, instead of protecting her children from this abuser.

Cleebope, it's lovely that you have (I'm assuming) a loving, supportive family. Sadly, many families contain abuse, and encouraging a defenceless child to have contact with those abusers is not the right thing to do.

Assume wrongly then. As a child of a v messy divorce I am entitled to say that.

Children deserve to have a close and loving relationship with their extended family. Unfortunately that's not possible with a vile controlling bully in the mix.

In the OP's position I'd cut off all contact. it's just not worth all the heart-ache. Most especially with siblings as flying monkeys to add the the misery.

Cleebope,

re your comment:-

"Just once or twice a year would be enough for him not to lose all contact. Might also stop will omission threats! Might be more likely to at least leave his money to Dgs"

None of the above are ever good reasons to keep a relationship with some toxic grandparent going, not even close. I personally would not want a penny of his cash either, anything from them smacks of obligation and control.

I note from OPs initial post that this man turned down their invitation to meet somewhere neutral. His desire instead was for OP and her son to turn up at his house and without her husband. No reasonable person acts like her father has done. Only people who want their own way all the time do such things; his actions stem from wanting power and control over all others and that has already happened within OPs own family.

Not all grandparents are nice and kind; infact some of them are out and out abusive like OPs dad. These people were not good parents to the OP and they are certainly not decent grandparent figures to her child.

Ok, the !! Indicated a tongue- in- cheek tone which I am learning is often misconstrued on MN. But yes I did have lovely Dgps and I also think the Dgm deserves respect for trying to keep everyone together, although others may think she is a doormat. I would let ds go to his house if he demands it so long as aDs is happy to do so. Simple as that. Obviously op and dh are right to cut him out from their own lives.

You can't "demand" a relationship and expect it to be a healthy one. Anyone making demands on me or my children to behave in such-and-such a way, or to visit when, where and I they say - wouldn't be seeing us for dust!

How on earth can a relationship with an abusive, bullying, demanding GF be of any benefit to a child? The child is too young to know what is going on. A child may be happy to miss school, not visit the dentist, spend time with abusers who just happen to be family. But parents would be failing in their duty as parents to allow this to happen.

What difference does it make whether or not an abuser is a family member? Being family does not make the abuse acceptable. Why would anyone want a young child to have a relationship with an abuser just because the child is too young to appreciate that abuse is abuse?

Update: We had our family day out today that DFather and DM were invited to. We had a lovely day... without them. Father refused to come and offered no explanation, DM didn't feel she could come without him.

He is sticking to his way or the highway.

Looks like the highway then :(

Ooh sorry there are lots more replies than I realised, should have refreshed the page before posting.

Thank you to everyone for all your support I feel that you really understood the issue and have probably seen it yourselves also.

I am not crying any more though somewhat disbelieving of the situation we find ourselves in.

Clee We have tried everything we can and don't take this lightly this has been going on for a long long time. Grandad has his own twisted recipe for each relative and I am trying but failing to find an example of him having a vaguely healthy relationship with anyone current or in my memory now I think about it. He always says 'lt's them not me' when asked why his 'brother' for example (there are many examples) hasn't spoken to him for years. DS will not be visiting alone as DM is unable to influence Grandads behaviour or even bizarrely unable to predict the sort of things he might say. She has a selective amnesia (coping strategy) and although doesn't exactly enable him or behave like a pushover, she will whitewash stuff away because 'surely he can't have meant that'.

We will try to have a relationship with DM of course. This will depend on her really as she comes under a lot of pressure before, during and after a visit to us without him. When here she will be worried about him, trying to persuade us to fix it, telling us how upset we are making him, telling us how much he loves DS, trying to get us to explain ourselves to my siblings (who in turn put on pressure 'Dad is so upset you are keeping DS from him.....' and the classic ' YOU are stepping us having great family get togethers because you won't come'). The thing is we can't come because it is too awful, it's not that we wouldn't like to have big family get togethers too!!!!!

Waterworld - the best thing you can do is keep your ds well away from these controlling, manipulative people. Becoming a grandparent doesn't confer any rights whatsoever.
Like PPs I too, was 50 when I finally stood up to my appalling scf. But prior to that I kept my young ds well away from him after I began to see the signs of manipulation, shaming, sneering, ignoring beginning to be aimed at him. I didn't know then what I now know. But I knew enough to protect him at all costs. I wish MN had been around then. I would have gone nc much earlier and not continued to be messed around until into middle age.
GF and his enabling wife have everything to lose. You on the other hand hold all the cards and a serious duty to protect your ds from bullies.
Stay strong.

I will refer to this thread for a while I think, especially when I have a wobble, such helpful stuff here.

I should add that in the OP I said DH 'will not tolerate'. I should have said 'can no longer tolerate'. Because quite frankly he has put himself out massively and put up with lots of flack over the years because I mistakenly thought I was 'close' to my parents.

Needless to say the OP was just snippets to give a flavour. How stupid I have been.

How stupid I have been.

Not stupid at all OP! It's entirely natural to want a relationship with your parents if at all possible, and coming to the realisation that one or both of your parents is just toxic is extremely hard and very painful. I'm glad you're no longer crying over your DF, but be kind to yourself if from time to time you do have a bit of a cry. I certainly do. And above all, know that it's not your fault. You were dealt a shitty hand in the parental stakes. You can't fix it. But you can set some boundaries and stick to them. And if you're able to do that, you'll be happier in the long run, I'm sure.

WaterWorld

re your comment:-
"She has a selective amnesia (coping strategy) and although doesn't exactly enable him or behave like a pushover, she will whitewash stuff away because 'surely he can't have meant that.

We will try to have a relationship with DM of course"

Why would you want to do that given her behaviours?. That is a mistake. You all need to stay away from your side of the family. She will always bow to his will and put his interests above everything and everyone else including her own self. She herself plays an overall role in your family of origin's dysfunction and actively allows it to continue.

You are still very much in a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) state with regards to your family of origin.

WaterWorld

I would second the suggestion that you are not stupid, far from it.

You just wanted to be raised within an emotionally healthy family. Unfortunately, and that is an understatement here, you were not and the
dynamics of your family of origin's dysfunction continue to this very day.

I also do not think you will be able to set boundaries with either parent mainly because they will ride roughshod over them.

You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you got. The best gift you can really give to yourselves now is to live well and without any of your family of origin in your day to day lives.

Sorry Waterworld - whitewashing is enabling behaviour. It is diminishing and explaining away nasty, abusive stuff and the impact of GF's behaviour and making you feel that somehow it's your fault.
She will need to do an awful lot of work on herself way way before you should give her access to ds.
This sounds harsh. Unfortunately there are several posters here who know exactly what you are facing and know exactly how the manipulation will play out if you don't put the brakes on now.

And what Attila says.

I too had the 'will' threat from scf. Got cut out of his will. Along with another sibling who had dared to stand up to him. Other siblings took the money and ran. We went nc with them. We survived with our heads held high and our integrity intact.
Don't let him play you like this.

Avoid DM? I can see what you are saying but had not thought of that.

DM has had a handful of visits without DDad in tow. Clear boundaries for her behaviour with and what can be said to DS have been in place and she has absolutely respected them. DS has enjoyed the visits and especially the more recent ones where she has been more 'whole'. Initially she was pretty rudderless and although here physically was clearly distracted.

I think she could follow similar boundaries for us as I have now had enough and said no more bringing the problem to our door.

Whether she will still visit remains to be seen as he will presumably know she is no longer able to deliver his messages therefore may not let her come. After all she didn't come today.

Sorry if this looks like drip feeding. Did not want the OP to be overloading and there is oodles more stuff I could add on many issues related.

Thinking this through.

I am sort of able to block this out a lot of the time.

Then I find out DH can not, he's struggling with all the negativity. He feels it very personally, though I suspect anyone who had the misfortune to be my DH would have been targeted somehow - it's not personal to him.

I presume blocking it out has been my coping strategy all along :(

I am quite good at it it seems. As long as things are quiet.

I fear the repercussions will keep coming within my own small family unit now and damage has been done.

WaterWorld, blocking it out is definitely a strategy and I think it can work some of the time. However, dealing with parents like this is very difficult, so 'blocking it out' can actually mean shoving the difficult feelings inside a box and not dealing with them. They're still there, waiting for you, and often end up spilling out anyway at inconvenient times! They still need to be felt. The amount of effort involved in not feeling them is unbelievably exhausting. Having parents like yours (and mine), you generally grow up being conditioned to put their feelings first at all times, to please them at all costs, and in the process, you can lose yourself.

You're obviously aware of the impact of all of this on DH, which is important for your releationship, but dont' underestimate the toll it will be taking on you too. Personally, professional support has been absolutely invaluable for me - I've been seeing a psychotherapist for some time now, and she has helped me to unravel the whole huge mess, to start to recognise my feelings, to understand that they are valid and that I am entitled to have them, and to figure out how best to manage my relationship with my parents. It's been incredibly painful but also by far the best thing I've ever done.