"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[dreame]

Good morning,

I've been on here a few times before but under different names. I find it difficult to keep up with the thread and bad for not being able to join in and reply to people much so try not to post much. But today I feel I need/want to.

Waaaay up thread Turquoise mentioned about the mask slipping with her M starting to talk harshly to her child despite being "super" grandmother. This is something I completely recognise. It's the most disconcerting thing to watch sickly sweet grandmother in action KNOWING what she's actually like. The mask slipping I found reassuring though for me because I always questioned my memories.

And even more up thread Walking asked if anybody ever had their M or parents go NC with them. I have another thread about it (for my reasons above) and essentially yes. After emailing my M (there's not even a sarcastic "D" anymore) telling her I am having treatment for PTSD stemming from what she did to me when I was about 4/5 she put it back on me (of course) and ended by wishing me and my family well for the future.

I had actually been going to tell her not to contact me again in my initial email, but left it open for her to be nice/apologetic/caring/a bloody human and surprise, surprise she showed her true colours.

I found my diaries from when I was 16/17 after this (on Fri/Saturday) and read them all. It was such a shock. This is why I'm here now.

She was awful, so awful to me and about me. I had no idea about narcs then at all but I was writing word for word what a narc mother does. I had that she hadn't liked me from age 11-17 (I was 17 and started puberty at age 11). She called me fat in veiled ways and directly, she allowed my brother to (and more) and actively pitted him against me - and joined him, I wondered if she was jealous of me but couldn't for the life of me understand why because I was so fat, ugly, useless and inconsequential why would anybody be jealous of me.

But what I am having a hard time getting my head around is that she sewed the seeds of me thinking I was mentally ill. I was being seen by the local mental health team (they were beyond useless) and looking back this was excellent for her, because she was fine, I was "wrong". She made comments about "worrying" I'd become an alcoholic (I had no social life, or money and never went out so virtually impossible) and other ones about me being "emotionally sensitive". I was going crazy wondering if I was "crazy". The utter lack of support is one thing and the callousness is something else.

I can believe she'd be a bitch but shocked beyond belief that she made me question my own sanity as a teenager.

So I'm not upset that she's said her veiled goodbye in the slightest, but struggling with how much worse it was than I'd realised.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Purplepandas

You very much belong here.

From the initial part of this thread:-

"One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth".

Re this part of your comment:-

"Things were much better when I and my sis had DC as she had a role again. Tons better and things are nowhere as bad as they were. I think I have been lulled into a sense of security and let my guard down too much. She can be fab mostly now. She's great with the DC. and does childcare etc (We are lucky in that respect). But yesterday we had a bit of a dispute. No need for her to flounce out of our house and slam the door which she did of course. I am livid. I am not prepared to tolerate that behaviour for me but certainly not my DC. I cannot let them see what I did as it had a huge impact (not that she would ever see that). I should have not responded to her (am cross with myself about that) but I did not shout/slam etc or anything. In fact, I said calmly that I did not want an argument and that was the inflammatory statement. DF minimised as usual".

Your parents have not really altered much since your own childhood; your mother is still very much the same (have you considered that she may well have some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder?. Emotionally healthy stable people never behave like your mother has done).

I would also find alternative childcare; she was not a good parent to you and is a rotten example frankly of a grandmother to your children. Your father is a bystander and like many such weak men he has failed to protect you from her. He stays out of self preservation and want of a quiet life, he also needs someone to idolise.

"We have tickets today for something and had theirs so could not avoid them. I left theirs on the door as I figured that I was not the one to flounce so was not going to make contact. Cold shouldered when they did turn up by DM. FFS, it is such juvenile behaviour. Why is she unable to apologise and at least acknowledge that she cannot behave like that. Is it that fucking hard? I am not prepared to go back down the slippery slide of terrible behaviour that she have seen before"

People like your parents never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. This is because they are toxic through and through; its everyone else's fault except theirs. Look at their own family backgrounds; what are they like?. Pound to a penny both their childhoods featured abuse throughout.

If they are too difficult/toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your both vulnerable and defenceless children. I can only assume you allowed contact with your children in the first place out of some forlorn wish that they were going to behave better this time around despite your own personal knowledge to the contrary.

She will be so called "great" with the DC whilst they are young; when they are older and answer back she will turn on them if she is not already making snide comments re one of them.

One generation i.e. you and your sister have been and remain profoundly affected; do not let the next generation be so affected as well. Toxic crap like this really does go down the generations; you need to protect your children from such malign influences like your parents.

If you want peace then you need to go no contact with the two of them and stay no contact.

[pocketsaviour]

Hello dreame

Please don't feel bad about dipping in and out. We all participate here to the level we're comfortable with.

You finding your old diaries really resonates with me. I was never able to be really honest in my diaries as a teen as my mother would search them out no matter where they were and then use anything I had written against me. But when I moved back to near where I grew up, a couple of years ago, all those old memories started to come back. How utterly alone I was, with no adult who cared about me to protect me - and those adults who might have helped kept at arms length.

Can you try to reframe this in your head, not to minimise the betrayal or try to quash your feelings of pain, but to realise the enormous amounf of strength that you actually had to survive that? I expect that you've been told umpteen times that you're "fragile", "delicate", "weak in mental health" - when the reality is exactly the opposite. You as an adolescent survived a sustained attempt by an adult to drive you to insanity; the resources you must have had to rely on are something to be celebrated and recognised.

[portinastorm]

Hi fidella
I think your dm is passing responsibility to you so she can go away without guilt. I would call back and say that you are busy ( working , visiting friends, phone not working, going on a retreat, anywhere that you wont have a phone signal). So while she is away she needs to make time to call to ensure HER HUSBAND is ok.
He may be your DF but that doesn't mean you should be expected to cover their wants.
Also inform his GP that he will be alone while your mother is away and you are ........... getting on with what you want to do.
If they shout that's their bad behaviour, you are not being selfish dont feel you are. Ask yourself If a friend behaved this way would you still call them a friend ?
You owe them nothing , especially when you are not asked but told what to do ggrrrrrrrrr !

[portinastorm]

Hello everyone , been away for a few days , feeling strong , now I feel wobbly.
Everyone has been so kind and helpful to my previous posts about my so called mother and so called sisters behaviour.

I have now gone nc and I fluctuate between sadness and disbelief. Outrageous lies have been told which are not only malicious but have no shred of truth.The behaviour can only be described as designed to wound.
My auntie has been witness and said she has no words for what has happened. but nobody is actually understanding the pain it has caused me. Everybody is just getting on with their lives while I feel absolutely grief stricken.

I have a fantastic partner but i am struggling with feelings of anxiety, not sleeping and feeling very sick. I hate the way it is affecting my views of myself. I still wonder if i could have fixed this some way , or find a way for them to understand that they have been unfair and hurtful and say sorry and I could resume this (untrue) belief that I have a family.

I know what I want is not realistic, it is not attainable. But I wish I could get through the day , and night , without this pain. It comes in waves.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Fidelia

What portinastorm wrote.

Honestly I would not bother with either of them from now on. You owe these people precisely nothing. They were not good parents to you and they certainly are not being nice now. If you do know who his GP is you could inform the practice but I would certainly not call him daily to particularly to assuage any of your mother's supposed guilt.

Both your parents get what they want out of their dysfunctional relationship, that is likely why they are still together.

[BubblingUp]

dreame - your jealousy comments rang true for me as well. My mother was very jealous of me while at the same time telling me I was ugly.

Granted in my narc Dad's eyes, he prioritized the women in his life in this order: (1) the impressive brilliant career women he worked with; (2) The Mistress; (3) me, because I was smart like him (although he agreed with Mother in that I was extremely ugly); and, then (4) his wife (Mother). Course, I took the brunt of her jealousy at her being ranked so low in her husband's eyes (and me ranking higher!). I was a teenager. Her "Pick Me" dance was with all 3 of us - the Career Women, The Mistress and Me.

[pocketsaviour]

Hi Fidelia

I think you can take a strong step here in setting boundaries and let your mother know you will NOT be checking in on your dad during her absence.

Does she have a mobile? If so, I'd text rather than call. Don't try to offer an excuse, just say "it's not convenient" and keep repeating that.

Is your dad likely to have falls, etc, when she isn't around? Might be worth investigating getting him a panic alarm pendant, which I think can be recommended/prescribed by the GP, if he is at risk of falls and she is away often.

[pocketsaviour]

Port sorry to hear things have been hard. I felt very panicky myself when I cut my mum off. It was difficult that I couldn't discuss it with my sister, who was feeling quite emotionally fragile herself at that time, and I don't have a partner. I posted here a lot :) Be extra kind to yourself at the moment and do things which will help soothe and strengthen you.

[whitehandledkitchenknife]

For all of you - dreame, fidelia, purple,bubblingup and portina, I can only echo what pocket and Atilla are saying.
One of the things that has kept me going through the piles of life crap is to ask myself "what do I want to do?" Once I realised that I was dealing with people who were never going to change. It helped me to keep my needs at the forefront. I had been thoroughly trained to keep them out of sight and unheeded and not really recognised. I had to start with "what don't I want to do?" because I couldn't at first identify my needs. All I knew was that I felt sick and panicky and anxious when dealing with some of demands/expectations placed on me.
I also used to ask myself 'what's the worst that can happen?' After I got my head around my fear of confrontation.
I too, had waves Portina, of gut wrenching pain and sadness. They do ease off in time. I still get the odd ripple of sadness. Not for my family. But for the poor little girl that I've carried around for so long, who has been so brave and courageous. Who nobody has ever really seen or heard.
Be so very gentle with yourselves. Don't carry on your families' work of being unkind to yourselves. You are far more precious than that.

[toomuchtooold]

portina it sounds like you are grieving for those relationships - the relationships you wish you had had, what you actually needed from your family. It is becoming clear to you I think that your actual relationships with your family will never be good, will never give you the love and care you need, and of course that is a massive thing to grieve. It will get easier.

[Mamaka]

I posted a thread asking a question, I may have worded it badly, but I didn't get great responses! Someone advised me to bring it here. I'll paste below:

I'm curious if anyone has any insight on this as there seems to be quite a lot of knowledge on abuse and dysfunctional families on here.
I'm trying to figure out my h's family. He won't hear a bad word said against them and denies that anything bad happened, however his dad has had an affair, his mum lives separately from his dad (different country for work) but they're still married, one sibling is morbidly obese and a neglectful parent and verging on having a drink problem, another sibling has severe mental health problems (potentially schizophrenia although undiagnosed as no mental health services where they live, not UK) and last sibling who is baby of family is a big stoner layabout. Compared to siblings, h is doing pretty well but we struggle to have a healthy relationship and his communication is poor, he can be quite passive aggressive.
Any insights into what might be the history there? Surely these problems among 4 siblings can't have just appeared out of nowhere.

[whitehandledkitchenknife]

Mamaka - I wouldn't want to hazard too many guesses about h's family history, except to say that something is pretty off within his family dynamic.
H's passive aggression maybe the avenue for you to explore. It sounds as if he is in a fair bit of denial about the realities of his family's behaviour.

Are you asking because you want to understand H better and improve things in your relationship?

And just as a throwaway comment - it doesn't seem like there has been much emotional containment for him and his siblings.

[FrancisdeSales]

This weekend I am visiting my ILs who I find very challenging. They can be fun and friendly but in 20 years they have never tried to get to know me in any way or given me any emotional support. My MIL is very enmeshed with DH and has been very abusive to me - although I have managed to retain my boundaries. DH is very loyal to me but naturally loves his mum very much.

Both my parents died when I was a teen and now we live in another nation so I feel overwhelmed visiting them. They are very codependent and want our family to be emotionally responsible for everyone else. The last time I saw MIL it did not end well and I am dreading seeing her.

please help.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Francis

re your comment
"They can be fun and friendly but in 20 years they have never tried to get to know me in any way or given me any emotional support".

That's a contradiction right there; I presume they are only "fun" and "friendly" to your DH (but with conditions). After 20 years they are also not going to change; you can only change how you react to them.

Presumably your DH has seen all this as well at first hand from them; what is his opinion of his parents behaviour?. Whose idea was it to see these people at all; it just plays right into their codependent hands. Its not going to end well.

I also think your boundaries re them need more work and raising seeing as you are going to see them again. I would cancel the visit to them and if you really have to go at all, then make this the last ever visit. You are not actually staying with them are you?. Again if you are, that arrangement needs to be changed now.

[Glitterball86]

Hello!!

Have just found this thread following a post I made in AIBU yesterday (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2572208-Long-back-story-but-AIBU)
It's really hit home now how much of a dysfunctional family unit I have and how growing up a lot of what I experienced has not been normal
Just recently my mother made a reference to my DS Having Cradle Cap and said she hopes I make him wear a hat when I take him out because it looks so discusting no one will want to see it!
Reading through posts on this thread feels like a whole new way of thinking has been opened up for me and hopefully one day soon I will have the strength to go NC
But until then I shall mark my place :)

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Glitterball

I read that thread and it seems to me anyway like you were raised in a narcissistic family structure. You are and remain the scapegoat for their inherent ills. Your brother is their golden child.

I would keep all of your family of origin well away from your son. If you find these people too difficult/toxic/mean to deal with its the same deal for him as well. You need to protect him from such malign influences. Such people like your parents do not change, you can only change how you react to them. Narcissists in particular make for being really crap grandparent figures.

BTW I would not let your dad off the hook here; he has failed to protect you from your mother's mad excesses of behaviour. He is really a weak man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life; he is her hatchet man who also likely wants someone like your mother to idolise.

"Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride is a good book for you to read as would be "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward.

[Glitterball86]

As much as I hate to admit it I think you are right! Will try and get those books and have a read :) Thankyou !x

[toomuchtooold]

Glitterball I also wonder whether this might all have raised its head because with the birth of your DS, you're no longer able to do all of the taking care of the emotional needs of your mother that you probably did, probably unconsciously, most of your life? E.g. say she's having a moan/telling a story that puts her in a good light, and your DS starts crying, and you cut her short - previously you would have sat there listening until your ears went numb. Normal people know that a crying baby trumps their story about how the plumber tried to rip them off. Narcissists take offence and either start acting up, or if they're covert narcissists, they take it away as a grudge and "get you back" for it later.

Anyway welcome to the thread - sad reasons for you being here but we're happy you found us!

[CharlyWooplus2]

Thanks Chiggers and 665 for your replies and advice on going NC. I think you are very wise to say that I shouldn't list out my reasons as that is always provokes rows and gets me nowhere! I thought there must be a formula for going NC, which is prob silly, but saw that you said just to do it my way, so I just haven't picked up the phone/texted. Last night was a test as my DF came for an overnight stay. I avoided mentioning her and he brought her up once to ask if she was coming to help once the baby is born and I just brushed it away with a no, we're not going to have any staying visitors for at least a month as I'm having a C-section and will most likely be sleeping a lot. He was fine with it and the subject of DM was dropped.

Anyway, new thing. It's half term week and I have both DS at home, am 6 months pregnant, exhausted and hormonal. And all of a sudden I've started to become terrified of turning into her. Every time I hear my voice sound irritated or I tell them off, I inwardly freak out. I'm worried I am too strict. This week it's all normal stuff, they're winding each other up and every now and again one of them whacks the other. I am v sensitive to any violence (surprise surprise) so immediately jump in and get them to stop, apologise etc. All feels like it's getting too much and I ended up really shouting at my older one the other night. Have been paranoid ever since - am terrified that once day he'll hate me, like I hate and resent my DM. I used to give her warnings though, that one day I'd run as fast as I could and she'd be out of my lief, but here I am, still under her influence. I don't want to inflict paranoia of this happening onto my DC - and to be clear, I'm talking about shouting, no name-calling or anything physical. Maybe this is totally my hormones talking, normally I think I do a good job!!! Today a super friend has taken one of them to give me a rest and the other is in football camp - a strategic break!!!

Spoke to my closest friend yesterday, she doesn't know everything about my childhood, though is a childhood friend. She thinks I should make contact as a mum is a mum and the kids love her. I told her what she's said, and that my view is that not all mum's are deriving of the title, but she insisted it's my DM and you only get one, that I need to just tell her nothing of my life and only tell her about kids, cut her off when it becomes negative. Her DM passed away 20 yrs ago, so I felt like I couldn't argue. Has made me feel guilty all over again, like I should send a text.

Feel like the world' s most awful person right now and want to crumple into a heap on the floor.

[TurquoiseSongbird]

Ah, name change fail - that was me above. Am asking mumsnet to change it if they can for me so as not to be identified in RL. Can tell I'm not myself, making silly mistakes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

CharlyWooplus2,

It is NOT your fault your mother is like this; you did not make her this way.

I also do not think you will turn into your mother because you know that her treatment of you as a child was wrong on all levels. You do not and do not want to repeat that with your own children. Adult children of narcissists often express such fears and they are rarely if ever justified. You have two qualities also that your mother lacks; empathy and insight.

Re your comment:-

"Spoke to my closest friend yesterday, she doesn't know everything about my childhood, though is a childhood friend. She thinks I should make contact as a mum is a mum and the kids love her. I told her what she's said, and that my view is that not all mum's are deriving of the title, but she insisted it's my DM and you only get one, that I need to just tell her nothing of my life and only tell her about kids, cut her off when it becomes negative".

Oh balls to the "mum is a mum" comment!. Its all bullshit.

I am so sorry to say this but your friend does not get dysfunctional family dynamics at all. What about your feelings in all this, do they not count?. To me anyway her comments come across as somewhat judgmental towards you. I am only surprised she has not yet asked you how you would feel if she died.

Your parents had their whole lives to make a positive difference when it came to you. They made their choices, and apparently through the grid of how these type of statements are meant to be taken, your parents choices are acceptable but your choice NOT to put up with abusive and disrespectful disregarding treatment is NOT acceptable? That is insane. It’s like people are so brainwashed by this whole thing that they don’t even realize how stupid it sounds to be told to accept abuse/neglect/disrespect just because ‘they’ are ‘family’. I tell you now that family are not binding.

She has come from a nice and emotionally healthy family unit; many people who have this often spout similar sentiments (and I have seen similar on MN from people again who mainly have come from nice emotionally healthy families). Such people really cannot understand that there are people out there who behave like your mother does; they do not understand the whole narcissistic dynamic it at all - and do not want to do so either. She is also coming from any entirely different direction, I note that her mother died a couple of decades ago.

You know all too well what your mother is like and how damaging she has been and continues to be. This woman I argue does not know the half of it, she is very fortunate in that respect.

Do not send your mother a text message; do not forget that for such disordered of thinking people like your mother the contact is the reward and that leaves you further open then to more crap from her.

I would keep your entire family unit including your children well away from your children. Narcissists in particular make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures. Apart from anything else, she was not a good parent to you - she is not going to be a decent role model of a grandparent to your children either.

[TurquoiseSongbird]

Thanks Atilla for the reassurance. I hope you are right and that I am not turning into her in any way. That would destroy me all over again.

I do think my friend is coming from a v different place due to death of her, very lovely, mum. She don't know dysfunction, no. Also, because I let DM into my life in last 8 years since DS1 was born it possibly does look like I am going off in a huff. My DM has apologised before, you see, and I said I forgave her, but every time her awful behaviour starts up again, it brings the whole thing back like it was yesterday. I have honestly wanted to forgive, but it seems it is just impossible for me, because I can't forget it....and she can't hide her true self. It's a vicious cycle. This latest row she started off by saying I'd had an idyllic childhood, to then saying I deserved what she did...rambling, denying then acknowledging and blaming, so it makes accepting apologies very very difficult. I'm tired of the rigmarole of saying let's put it in the past and move forward, only for something else to happen.

I cannot comprehend how my friend could hear that my DM said I deserved the abuse I got (as I was a difficult and not-so-young child) though, and still thinks I should contact her. I felt invalidated. You are spot on in your assessment.

I am going to repeat this to myself: Your parents had their whole lives to make a positive difference when it came to you and What about your feelings in all this, do they not count? I need to be mentally strong and emotionally healthy for my little family unit. The only time that is damaged is when DM is around, so am going to soldier on and remain NC. Thank you

[FrancisdeSales]

Attila thanks for your reply. We were living in another nation for many years and are now back in their country (neither is the UK). Since coming back I am seeing how bad it all truly is and to be honest I think I made a monumental mistake coming back. My kids all preferred the previous nation to but now we cannot go back.

As I now am recognizing how truly bad it all is I will not stay with them. We will be in a hotel. My ILs are divorced so we see them separately. Because I am the outsider I can be framed as the one with all the problems. If I could I would never see them again and I think our family life has been tranquil for all these years because we lived so far from them.

I cannot believe I was such an idiot to come back. If only I had taken a couple of months to reflect I think I would've come to my senses. I very naively thought of what was best for DH and MIL and not myself and kids. It was also during a visit from MIL who was with us for 6 weeks. When she arrived we were not thinking of leaving by the time we left we had made the decision.
What a fool I am