Feel like I'm being taken for a chump

[HarmlessChap]

Hard post to write, partly as being a typical bloke its not easy to talk to others about personal stuff but also because as a male I feel like I'm entering the lion's den here but I want the opinions of women here, so where better than mumsnet.

The background. We've been married for nearly 20 years and I've always been the driving force in affection and intimacy in our relationship. In our early 40's (we are both the same age) my DW decided that sex was finished and we haven't been physically intimate for several years now, but in the last year its become not only sex but hugs, kisses and so on. I still hug her but its not really reciprocated and often she pushes me away. Same with kissing, a peck is OK but anything more is a no no.

Friends have said I should leave her but I love her dearly and also I'm not OK with becoming an every other weekend dad and lets face it unless there is something bizarre the woman always gets custody.

She seems jealous of any life I have beyond the marriage and periodically accuses me (without foundation) of having affairs, her justification for this seems to be that I keep myself fit, like to be well presented and smell nice which she seems to think I'm doing for some other woman but I'm doing it for my own self esteem and have always have done.

Anyway what brought things to a head for me was when I hit the anniversary of my mother's death, which is always a really hard time for me, I was asked what was wrong as I was very introverted and down and when I reminded her I was asked if I "wanted a hug or something" but I feel that if she really cared she would have just given me the hug(s) without needing to ask.

I'm currently feeling needy and unreasonable and when I raise these issue my wife's attitude is that "well that's just what I'm like......you should know by now". Is it normal that as we get to middle age couples stay as friends but stop being lovers or am I just the comfortable, safe option.

Anyway, thanks for getting to here and any opinions welcome, do feel free to be blunt and to everyone else, yeah I know TL;DR

I found that surviving in a marriage where there was no wanted intimacy and just keeping going for the sake of the children and maintaining a comfortable life lead to issues with feeling my real emotions. You become used to a blunted way of living and feeling in life and that can really have an impact. The truth can be utterly scary and separating can lead to some really tough times but I'd much rather have that than not living a real life and teaching my child about life, my feelings, my real needs of love and affection and what it means to love someone else and be really alive. I don't have my child with me all the time but the time that I do is quality time and I live a life of happiness which my child needs to learn from.

This is a brilliant point. Its totally accurate, and I wouldn't have been able to relate to it before I left my H, but since then, life feels amazing. Yes, there are difficulties, but I am connected with how I feel now in a way that I haven't been for years. You get used to pushing down your feelings so much hat you don't even realise that you are doing it. I feel like I was living in the dark for years and finally I can see sunlight. Its absolutely brilliant and I have a massive feeling of contentment.

You are not being needy in wanting love and affection from your wife. It's not unreasonable to want a sexual relationship either. She seems to not want any of those things with you and therefore I think you should give more thought to splitting up. Do you know why she seems not to want intimacy and affection or sex with you?

The thing about being an EOW dad is just an excuse you are making to yourself IMO.

Women don't always 'get the kids'. Kids are not something to 'get'. When people split they should look at what arrangement is best for the kids and what can be offered by each parent. Most women end up shouldering the greatest burden of childcare after a split because that is how the couple arranged things before the split. It's not about family law being sexist or about 'getting' kids. It's about determining that a split is a big enough change for children to deal with without parents fighting over who 'gets' them and massive disruption to their routine by a parent who suddenly wants to be more involved than they have been up until the split.

If you currently do a fair share of parenting then you should be able to continue doing that after the split. If you don't then think about whether you want to push for more contact for your benefit or theirs.

Offred is right. (Too many men want to be around (their kids) but not take much any responsibility for looking after them.)

Yes, that is true. My stbxh sees our children quite a lot, but the amount of 'parenting' he does is questionable.

How old are your children?

I have a friend, divorced, two children. the children are with him for half the week and with his ex the other half; one is at primary and one at nursery, so pretty young. They sorted it all pretty amicably. You don't have to be a eow dad, there are other possibilities.

Thanks for all the replies. If I'm hones I had come to the same conclusions.

The kids are 13 & 15, one of each. I wouldn't be able to afford anywhere bigger than a 1 bed flat so whether 50:50 care was available it wouldn't be a practically possible and I have no doubt that I would be regarded as the bad guy for leaving and breaking the status quo.

Yep I will freely admit that my want to stay part of my kids day to day life is about my needs. Being teenagers they're getting more and more independent but I'm a hands on dad and always have been. I do plenty of the cooking, ferrying, guidance/advice/listening and we have specific father son and father daughter times/activities as they have different interests.

Its a tricky one, I really don't know what to do. Whether to stay living with someone who I love but in a relationship which is more friendship than a marriage or to bring matters to a head. I'm not much of a catch so there's every chance that I'll end up alone and blamed for breaking up the family.

It takes bravery to change the status quo, it's almost easier in the short term to carry on with things as they are. One thing to consider is that by staying you are reducing not only your options of finding a mutually happy relationship, but also hers. It sounds like you will leave in the end, once the children have left home? Maybe kinder to have that discussion with your wife now. In my experience once someone knows they want out it just increases the level of tension and irritation at home, so you might find that now you have crystallised your thoughts a bit that the dynamic changes a bit anyway.

You need to bring matters to a head.
Will she agree to counselling with you to see why she decided intimacy was now 'off the table'
Did you offer you any thing else when SHE decided this all on her won?
An open relationship? Anything like that?
I could not live like this but totally understand why you want to be with your kids.
I'd tackle it head on and get some kind of resolution - good or bad.

I was the one who left. The children blame me. It is not reasonable for them to do so but it is understandable. I am confident that in time they will understand. I am very confident that I do not deserve blame and that is key to weathering a separation patiently and kindly where the children are concerned.

You sound very worn down by all this.

Your feelings are completely understandable and you need to have an outlet for them but equally you need to take some action to change the cause of them - build your self esteem, act fairly and reasonably to everyone etc.

You can do it, though it is difficult.

You could do with some talking therapy I think and some practical advice about finances and housing if you split.

I'm sorry you feel you are 'not a catch'. I wouldn't recommend trying to seek solace for low self esteem in another partner soon after the split. Work on valuing yourself and you will be more likely to attract a partner and more likely to find a better relationship IMO.

On paper I am most definitely not a catch btw but I do value myself and have not had a problem dating even as an unemployed single mother of four which probably is about the worst thing you can be on paper...

You will be ok. Work through things step by step.

You don't need to take drastic action IMO.

Maybe some talking therapy for you to work on your self esteem before you address things with her?

It would be very difficult to do couples counselling while you are feeling so ground down and down on yourself.

You're well - presented, keep fit and smell nice. You're already more of a 'catch' than most men ! I don't think it's fair for one person to decide sex is finished for both, or even affection. That reduces your marriage to being flatmates. Your children are old enough that they are able to be independent in meeting you/making arrangements to see you. There's no reason why you would have to stop doing activities together, especially if you were able to stay nearby. I think you've a lot of years ahead of you to spend, it would be sad to live them feeling uncared for.

I think she's asking everything if you & you're not getting anything back in return. She can't expect you to live like a monk

That didn't come across right, I'm not lacking self esteem but I do consider myself a realist.

Women didn't find me particularly attractive when I was young and I have no reason to believe that would have changed now I'm middle aged and while I've never had an affair, neither has the possibility arisen.

So when I say that I'm not much of a catch I was basing that on past experience and (lack of) opportunity rather than some kind of lack of self worth.

Obviously I don't know you but I do think your posts on this thread indicate a lack of self worth. TBH it wouldn't be surprising considering the state of your relationship or your description of your history with relationships.

Either way, some talking therapy for you before couples counselling would at least give you a chance to get your head straight and practical advice might help you see a way forward you weren't aware of.

Is it normal that as we get to middle age couples stay as friends but stop being lovers

No.

What people are looking for changes as they get older. How 'popular' you were when you were younger is not a good measure of how you would do now. If you've had years of being rejected, even for small affectionate gestures, that is a death of a thousand cuts. I would find it easier to be by myself than to have to live with this every day. You sound like you have a good relationship with your children, there's no reason for that to stop. They're old enough to be able to see how their parents' relationship is. Maybe both of you would be happier apart, it doesn't have to be a huge drama/fight.

You feel you are not attractive to women and never have been. You have stayed with a wife who has become increasingly cold towards you and one of your reasons for staying seems to be that you are concerned you couldn't do any better - that's my reading of what you've said and that is a lack of self worth.

You are affectionate, take care of yourself (physically and emotionally which shows responsibility for yourself in a relationship), want to share your feelings with a partner, are an involved parent... All these things are very attractive qualities aren't they?

Poor you! It sounds like you're at a crossroads in your relationship.

Is it possible your DW is suffering from depression? Would she agree to attend couples counselling with you? Have you explained to her in clear terms that you cannot carry on the way you are, and that you are thinking of separating because you don't know how to fix it/make her happy? That you love her dearly but things have to change, etc.
If you struggle to get her to listen, do you think you could write it all down in a letter for her? Would she feel more comfortable reading about how you feel; at least to get the ball rolling, so to speak? (less confrontational). Or maybe show her this thread?

She may feel not good/attractive enough for you and that she can't compete (with other women) and has therefore shut down to avoid getting hurt. Do you think that that is possible?

I think sex and intimacy are essential for a successful relationship. For myself, I know that I feel much closer to my DH when we are having regular sex and that we are generally more affectionate with each other as well. It also has the effect that we get on much better and bicker/disagree less. We've had our ups and downs (like most couples) and my DH doesn't cope well with stress and at these times, when our sex life has become almost non existent, we definitely argue more and there's less patience between us. At your age, I don't think you should have to settle for a relationship without any physical contact; it would be a very lonely existence.

You need to get your DW to understand the seriousness of this situation and that ignoring or not dealing with it won't make it go away. It will just keep getting bigger until it explodes.

As others have said it sounds like she is very insecure, feels unattractive, and is turning this insecurity back onto you. If you both want to save your marriage I really think counselling is the way to go.

You need to confront this head on as it won't go away. You will just keep feeling worse, and you don't want to get to a stage where looking elsewhere for affection feels like the only option (even just subconsciously).

I think this is often how people begin an emotional affair; they're not actively looking for something, but they meet someone and get on well and this person fills a void and gives them something that they aren't getting from their partner; and without even realising it's happening they're getting into emotional affair territory.

At the end of the day you have to talk to her before it gets any worse, and before it gets to a point where there's no turning back. HTH.

She may feel not good/attractive enough for you and that she can't compete (with other women) and has therefore shut down to avoid getting hurt. Do you think that that is possible?
Sigh. RTFT

It is indeed a conversation I need to have, I hope it leads some where as although our paths only crossed briefly this evening the short exchange reminded me that there is a lot of good in or relationship too i.e. friendship, humour and companionship even if there isn't affection, intimacy and passion.

When I say our paths crossed she arrived home and was out shortly after with daughter, I was out before they got back and when I returned she had gone to bed.

I wish I could split myself in 2 and the part which craves the affection could go one way while the bit that enjoys the good bits of what we have now can stay put.

Thanks, but I did read the whole thread and I was picking up on something someone said very early on. Also due to quite bad arthritis in my hands it takes me a very long time to compose an answer, so there were a dozen or so more threads by the time I'd finished that I hadn't had a chance to read. I didn't say it was rational to think that only that that might be where this originally stems from (if she sees herself as not good enough for the op).

I meant posts not threads, and I was replying to LionHearty. Also the op had mentioned very early on that dw was very insecure about other women from the gym and I was just wondering if that could be where the withdrawal from intimacy stems from in part (assuming she wasn't always this way).

Your children are quite old now. Can you live like this until they have both gone to Uni?

I cannot imagine a relationship where even kisses and hugs are rationed

OP, I think you need to be very honest with your wife about how you are feeling and how lonely you are. Even if she's not sure how it's come about maybe she'll agree to couples counselling and you can make space to discuss it more. At the moment it sounds like you're basically flatmates, crossing paths cordially enough but never adding any new intimate moments to the stockpile. IMO in that situation the stockpile of trust in your closeness eventually runs low and if at that point you've both forgotten how you used to add to it your relationship is in deep trouble.

Please talk to your wife. Not passing mention, but kids are out/asleep and you sit her down and say 'darling we need to talk'. I don't think she will be surprised - people know deep down when something is 'off'. If she cares for you and values the relationship she will be willing to do the work with you to get back on track.