Should adultery be re - criminalized?

[SlowFJH]

There's been a plethora of threads from OW in recent days. The general feeling on MN seems to be "cheating is always wrong". Yet most "civilised" countries have removed "Thou shalt not commit adultery" from their statute books many years ago. Was this a mistake?

Of course in those same countries it is still a legitimate grounds for divorce.

The whole reason law is separate form morality is because morals change over time and are not a reliable guide to what is harmful to society. Neither is religion which is why we have an increasingly secular legislature.

As a slight different take on this, when I was a lot younger and in my first job I started seeing an older guy from work. I was very happy until I discovered he was actually married. It was really horrible, I felt like an awful person but I also felt violated - as if he'd tricked me into having sex with him by leading me to believe he was single. So whilst I don't think adultery should be criminalised, I can understand why people would support a "sex by deception" charge - for both me and his wife.

Why don't you articulate why you think affairs are not wrong? You clearly disagree and that is clearly what this whole thread is about. It's really poor form to misquote and pick apart reasons I haven't given and which you allocated to me yourself without even articulating why you disagree.

Regarding morality, the change in law concerning adultery, may indicate that people as a society prioritise forgiveness and reform over punishing 'wrongdoing'.

Comparatively, the law is less punitive now than a few centuries ago.

BitOutofPractice I would agree. Surely all laws (whether prescriptive or prohibitive ) stem from a set of values and beliefs about what is considered right and proper (vs wrong and improper) by the standards of that time. In this respect you could argue that all laws are mechanisms to impose the morality of that era.

There are always situations where things that are morally wrong are understandable; stealing food when you are destitute, killing your violent partner, having a a affair when you are being abused. Things being understandable, your best or only option doesn't mean they are not wrong. If they are illegal as well then these reasons are used as mitigating factors in sentencing.

Loads of things are wrong that are not illegal; lying, breaking promises etc. if we only ever took our conscience from law we would not be good people, which is because law is about what shoul be illegal not what is immoral.

If you study law you see the mechanism is not the same. Law considers harm, as does morality, whether a law is made is down to the appropriateness of legislating. Law and morality overlap because they are both concerned with harm but law is not based on morality.

Law in the past was heavily based on a religious concept of harm, this again is not the same as morality.

Offred you say "Why don't you articulate why you think affairs are not wrong?"

I don't think anyone is saying affairs are not wrong in general.

But people are questioning your absolute statement that affairs are always, morally wrong.

I gave my own example upthread. You say affairs are wrong because they hurt people.

Was I morally wrong to have an affair while in an abusive relationship with a man who knew I didn't want to be with him but felt he possessed me, and ultimately I had to get the police to help get him out of my life?

Who was I hurting? Why was that morally wrong?

The affair I had contributed to me finding the strength to leave him, despite his manipulation and threats.

Was I immoral? Really?!

The op is saying they disagree. The op won't articulate why.

I understand it is the absoluteness they apparently disagree with but I would like to know.

Yes it was wrong for you to have an affair.

I also had an affair in an extremely abusive relationship. I am not passing judgement on that from an ivory tower.

You seem to be a lot clearer Offred on what is / is not morally acceptable than I could ever claim to be.

Who am I to tell you (or any other person) what you should / should not consider to be immoral?

All I can do is express my preference and then see if the other party in the contract is willing to accede. E.g "I would prefer a monogamous relationship with you for the entirety of my remaining natural life. Are you up for that?"

This is very different from lecturing the other person that you know for sure that adultery is always immoral.

Some would disagree with you in exactly the same way they might disagree with a Muslim who believes it is immoral for a woman to be seen in public with her face, arms and legs visible. As long as no laws were being broken, surely that Muslim has every right to express a preference just as I have every right to express a different preference (without judging one to be right and one to be wrong).

If people disagree they should explain why not make posts which contain veiled insults.

Thinking adultery is always wrong is not the same as imposing your beliefs on someone else btw. Why would I be in a relationship with someone who didn't agree?

Anyway it is cheating that is wrong to me, not the weird concept of adultery and it's cheating MN takes against not the weird concept of adultery.

Offred I'm not sure who all those lists were addressed to

It's not compulsory to enter a monogamous relationship.

Those who choose to do so should however live up to it, or end it. Betraying someone isn't a good choice because it is betrayal.

This is not about a defence of monogamy. This is about the wrongness of lying and betraying.

And that's wrong in many aspects of life. I would condemn a cheating business partner, who left you broke with the business wrecked, in exactly the same way.

That does not mean that I would support criminalisation, or even a return to 'fault' in divorce settlements.

Your tone Offred comes across to me as rather hectoring and unnecessarily aggressive. If you are so sure in your rightness and my wrongness - why bother even engaging in this debate? It is not compulsory.

If you are still not clear on my position (and there is absolutely no requirement for you to be so..) here it is..

1. What we (??) consider to be moral or immoral today could well be very different tomorrow.
2. Our laws reflect the beliefs and values of that time and thus legislate the morality of a particular era.
3. Personally (and again, I am not imposing this view on you), I find the articulation of preferences far more productive than statements about moral absolutes

It isn't a debate though is it if you just attack my view and won't articulate your disagreement.

I am clear on your views as articulated there. What you have not articulated is why you disagree that cheating is wrong.

The conflation of morality and law is irritating to me because I'm a third year law student.

Society changes.

Not so long ago unmarried women were punished by having their babies taken from them.

These morality laws always punish women not men.

I don't recall men in ireland being tarred and feathered, only women and then often unmarried women at that.

Remember too that people live much longer now.

It's very different staying with the same person for 20 years than say 50 years.

Women are now more able to control their own sexual pleasure.

I think it is a silly argument.

Where the hell would we imprison all the adulterers ?

Who would pay the cost of providing care for all the affected children whose parent/ parents were now in prison?

Can you imagine the bill?

Hell society can't make nrp pay for their children as it is.

Great idea to imprison them too and stop children from seeing their parents altogether.

Also it would stop people from marrying if adultery was a criminal act.
Yet again more punishment for mothers and children as the law does not regard non married couples and their children equally.

Your premise is that people who think cheating is absolutely a wrong thing to do are wrong. That MN as a whole has the wrong approach to cheating threads.

Articulating the reasons why cheating is not wrong would make this a debate, rather than attack on the views of MN (as you perceive them). It has already been demonstrated that the majority of posters who think cheating is wrong would not want adultery criminalise which was the initial smear trap you set in the original post.

I am irritated by your attempts to smear MN and to smear people who think cheating is wrong. If you try to do that then people will get irritated. Especially if you then refuse to articulate why you think MN has got it wrong other than a vague thing that you think there are no absolutes in anything...

And so much for not dictating to people when your original premise and some of your posts to me have been about telling us what we think...

Where the hell would we imprison all the adulterers ?

That's easy, we could stick them on an island in the Caribean and call it Hedonism

*Caribbean

So having an affair when a person is being effectively forced into a relationship against their will is morally wrong?

Surely the "contract" of monogamy has been broken when it is being imposed by force and threats - implied or otherwise?

Yes, cheating is wrong. There is heirarchy of wrong. Someone treating you appallingly doesn't mean things that you do that are wrong are not wrong. Hitting back (not in self defence) is another example.

I'd not berate you for doing that, like I don't berate myself for doing it. I find it understandable, I'd consider that a case of someone doing the best they could. It would not mean it wasn't a wrong thing to do.

No-one is capable of being a total moral person. Moral standards are things to be aware of and to try to live by. Everyone does wrong things, the important thing is to consider what is right or wrong and to behave responsibly whenever you can and acknowledge when you haven't and understand the reasons why.