Only ever asked out by men I don't fancy

[Elenismyname]

Not sure why. I mean the ones I do like never seem to be interested. Has got to the point where I am becoming fairly harsh in my rejection strategy, like why has he he misread my signals again.

My self-esteem is fine. sargeantmajor I do believe that "if you don't want me, you don't deserve me'' mindset.

After an attractive, interesting man I went on three dates with recently told me that actually he wasn't looking for anything serious, but we were both adults who were attracted to each other, blah blah blah... I was reminded of aesop's fables, the foX and the grapes. I went off the grapes. They seemed sour, tarnished. I didn't even have to convince myself to go off him. A MORE long-winded realisation but the same mindset really. I prefer your more succinct way of phrasing it. HOWEVER< feeling like this doesn't mean that the men you like want you. :-/

A good mantra for rejection? "If you don't want me, you don't deserve me!"

No, just no. That is terrible advice. That is a mantra which, at first, springs simply from low self esteem to compensate rejection. But its a short term fix that, if your unlucky, becomes long term poison. Men who do a version of this in time lose themselves in feelings of massive entitlement and in latter years come to think they deserve an increasingly 'perfect' woman. Women who do it end up like caricatures of the Vance Joy song, Riptide, 'she's been living on the highest shelf', low self esteem coupled with expectations that cannot be realised.

What? nonsense dadwashere I think you're confusing two very different things. I hadn't even thought people could confuse these two things but here we go.... actively holding on to the control of your own value is not the same as being bitter and hating.

If you understand the difference you will understand that it's the polar opposite of low self-esteem. Somebody who doesn't want you can never value you how you want to be valued. They've taken themselves out of the running. It's not about hating. It's not the drama of an inflated ego.

The 'if he doesn't want you he doesn't deserve you' merely recognises 1) somebody else doesn't get to define your value and 2) that they can't see your value then they can't actively value you.

ps, another thing you're converging is two types of entitlement.

It is indicative of a healthy self-esteem to feel entitled to be treated well, singled out for the respect and affection etc. Nobody wants to feel that anybody else would have done just as well.

That is a different type of entitlement to the man/woman who feels entitled to a perfect gorgeous partner. They aren't comparable entitlements. (The latter entitlement probably is indicative of a large ego and a damaged self-esteem).

I dont buy your explanation Sum314, I would be worried for my daughters if they came to think in terms (If you don't want me, you don't deserve me!). Unlike 'you dont want me, I am disappointed but I will get over it' what you defend reeks of fragile self esteem, where a person derives empowerment less from themselves and more from how they are viewed by others, hence needing to devalue the other persons choice to derive self value from it.

The arrogant men play the numbers game. Most women make the mistake that the man actually likes them but he is just playing the numbers to get his leg over and, if rejected, will just move on to the next one without missing a beat.

On dating sites it is not unusual for such men to contact a 100 or more women in a single hour within a few miles radius - a sizeable percentage of them will end up being bedded by the men as the numbers game is a winner. You won't be asked out by a shy, sensitive guy on a dating site. It ain't going to happen.

The shy, sensitive, caring men fear rejection - rejection is painful and after two or three rejections a lot of men simply give up altogether - and rarely will ask women out, even those they are besotted with. If a woman likes shy and sensitive men then, bluntly, she is going to have to make all the moves.

Women used to know this stuff and, for generations, would manipulate such men so that situations arose where they could get the man, and the marriage, that they want. (Haven't you seen all those 1950's Rom-Coms with Doris Day, Marilyn Monroe and Co?). Modern women have been brought up with a huge sense of entitlement that they just have to breathe and everything they want in life will turn up on their doorstep - it does not work like that. It has never worked like that.

The good news is that, generally, shy and sensitive men are not wanted by women despite what may be posted here - most women want arrogance and dominance. (Don't believe me, just spend a few hours reading female dating profiles.). That means that you have a wonderful selection of lovely men to choose from if - IF - only you can work out that it is you who is going to have to do something about it.

Best of luck. There are simply loads of wonderful men out there who will make fantastic friends, lovers and partners.

I agree with DadWasHere, "If you don't want me, you don't deserve me" isn't a very healthy or respectful attitude. It sounds like "I'm ok, you're not ok" to me.

he arrogant men play the numbers game. Most women make the mistake that the man actually likes them but he is just playing the numbers to get his leg over

He may be arrogant, but he may also just be confident or friendly or whatever.

I'm with More314

Left on the shelf? Unlikely - my 78 year old grandma had to put her foot down with the men beating a path to her door when my grandad died. She literary had to spell it out to them by saying "LOOK I'm not interested " .

Ergo, it's fair to say that women "on the shelf" are those who have rejected every offer that's come their way, for a variety of reasons. One GREAT reason to reject an offer is if the guy doesn't seem that into you.
This is called being REALISTIC. There's also an element of sanity and self-preservation in the fact the grapes go sour and you lose interest.

Oops! It looks like I opened up a whole debate with my last post. Interesting...

Anyway, the reason I don't often post on 'Relationships' is that I met, made the first move and married the love of my life on my third serious relationship.

BUT for my job I have to do a lot of pitches for contract work and I believe it's a lot like dating. You're available, willing to do your best and want to do a professional job. And the impressions you give at the pitch are make-or-break.

Sometimes, for whatever reason, we don't get the contract but I know we're an excellent team, constantly striving to better ourselves, and we move on to the next pitch. Sometimes, based on previous experience and a professional assessment of the company, we decide not to make an offer. We also work more or less to capacity with returning clients.

Apply the above paragraph to dating.

And THAT phrase (in our local language) has jokily become our motto between colleagues. You may replace it for dating with "It wouldn't have worked out." "I was more invested in the relationship." "We wanted different things." but as long as you bounce back with your self-esteem, it's just words to the same effect.

DadWasHere thing is, for self-protection it has to be: "If you don't want me, you don't deserve me!". It's the only way to remain sane and keep your self-esteem.

The reality is that most people will be rejected by at least half of the people they feel a real connection with. Everyone will have their heart broken, that's unavoidable. But if you allow yourself to wallow and to feel rejected and crushed by everyone who isn't that into you, you will simply never pick yourself up and get on with life again. There has to be some mechanism by which you allow yourself to get back on track and carry on without taking on the burden of someone else's rejection. And actually, saying "f you, if you don't think I'm good enough," is quite a healthy way to do that.

That doesn't mean putting yourself on a pedestal. It doesn't mean becoming arrogant or being rude to people who have rejected you. It doesn't mean becoming entitled or ludicrously picky. It just means quietly and confidently refusing your sense of self worth to be punctured by someone else's rejection of you.

You say you wouldn't want to think your daughters will be like this and up to a point I understand this. But the reality is unless they are exceptionally lucky, your daughters will be rejected and dicked around and treated badly blokes (or women) from time to time. Better for them to be armed with some emotional Teflon for when they do need it than for them to cave in every time some worthless dickhead passes them over.

Well it cuts both ways I guess. I feel awful writing this but relatively recently I rejected a guy who approached me in a way that had I been the recipient I would have found hurtful. I was a bit drunk and fed up with the whole thing but still that's no excuse. I feel very bad that he ( I don't know him, he was a stranger) might be questioning himself because of my passive aggressive response. He looked mortified as he slunk away I thought he was going to cry.

It doesn't mean becoming arrogant or being rude to people who have rejected you... It just means quietly and confidently refusing your sense of self worth to be punctured by someone else's rejection of you.

But saying "you aren't good enough for me" or "fuck you" aren't healthy perspectives. You don't have to put the other person down if they don't return your feelings.

But the reality is unless they are exceptionally lucky, your daughters will be rejected and dicked around and treated badly blokes (or women) from time to time.

But the thread isn't about being badly treated, it's about not being fancied back. Hell, actually it's about not being asked out by the person you fancy (with no information on whether they fancy you or not).

recently I rejected a guy who approached me in a way that had I been the recipient I would have found hurtful

I think of some of the men I've turned down this year. They are perfectly ok men, physically attractive, financially independent, personable, funny, interesting etc etc. Just not for me for one reason or another. That's what I'll think when someone turns me down. It doesn't mean that I'm not an ok person, it's just not the right time or place for me and him.

Desperation and entitlement is a massive turn-off for anyone.

It's awful when one meets those who are looking for qualities they lack in themselves? It's like they want to "prove" to themselves something.

They claim "everyone rejects me because of X".

But they themselves aren't seeing people as humans to interact with but as representations of things to boost their ego?

I went out with someone slightly overweight a few years ago.

I didn't find him unattractive and in fact thought his weight was fine (and nice to curl up to in bed!).

But it was clear after a few dates HIS view of me was he "deserved" a very slim, fit woman to prove something to "all those bitches who rejected me".

Our dates (on his instigation) were solely going to posh bars so he could show me off. He himself wasn't seeing me "as a person". My job is not to bolster another adult's low self-esteem.

It really pissed me off, and now I think why wouldn't I just go out with someone who had a similar approach to activity levels as me? And indeed my DP has the same attitude as me.

Or I'm not very well-off (mature student who works in retail - I love my life but I don't have the assets of those my age who went to uni and took a standard career route).

So it would be weird for me to then "demand" that I go out with someone in a stable financial position when I don't have those qualities myself?

DP is same as me, smart but broke and we're improving our finances TOGETHER. Water settles at its own level.

I agree with Dadwashere too.

Making passive-aggressive comments is putting too much investment in the opinion of someone you probably hardly know from Adam!

It's not a case of "getting" someone or "giving" yourself, it's a case of you both having enough in common and enjoying spending time with each other and respecting someone.

Also, I think flippant comments and "you go girl you're too good for him" reinforcement isn't always a positive thing?

I had some bad dating years in my late teens, and the reality is it wasn't all "the bastard menz fault", I DID need some self-improvement.

(I had a weird family so wasn't really socialised properly and although I was physically attractive, I was trying for the attention of lots of guys I had little in common with).

It isn't saying "I was a terrible unlovable person", it's just saying that I needed to calm down a bit and be more comfortable with myself and find my own identity before dating.

"Modern women have been brought up with a huge sense of entitlement that they just have to breathe and everything they want in life will turn up on their doorstep - it does not work like that. It has never worked like that."

Do we? News to me.

It is quite hard to approach someone and risk being made a fool of. It happened to me a couple of times and hurt like hell at the time.

I think shy men often aren't in relationships because they are "shy" and women are all shallow types who are attracted to b***ds and who are all doomed to be ugly spinsters who can't get a man

I know a couple men who definitely aren't that talkative. But they've never struggled with female attention, because they work out and have lives and careers they enjoy and are assertive when they need to be and aren't bitter. They just don't like talking.

The "shy" guys making the complaints aren't actually that attractive.

They go on about how "women don't like sensitive types"

What they actually mean is they aren't physically attractive, live in their parents basement, don't have any assertiveness skills or life direction and spend too much time on the Internet. They live in their own heads and are far too navel-gazing.

But they feel entitled to someone mother them. Incidentally, this person also needs to look like Lara Croft.

Also, being passive often isn't "niceness" but can verge into passive-aggressiveness and lacking social skills.

There is nothing more excruciating than some self-declared Nice Guy brimming with resentment that all the women he fancies (i.e. the slimmest, youngest, blondest women in his social group) aren't chasing after him and offering their vaginas

because he "was a friend" to them and therefore he is praying they all die lonely old maids and will be sorry they turned him down.

So true

Wow, I think some posters have mistaken the entitlement people ought to have to a partner who gets them and is certain about them with an entitlement for a 'gorgeous partner'. I did explain in my post the difference but dadwashere in your haste to disagree with me, I don't think you actually properly read my posts. If you did you wouldn't 'worry' if your daughters thought like I do. You'd be relieved. Far better to realise that if a man doesn't want you then he's not right for you. What would dadwashere prefer, his daughters flagellating themself and berating themselves for not being good enough for the person who rejected them. That's better?

exactly marzipanmaggie good post.

ps, and I'm still posting, I must feel strongly about this! I know I'm right although some thinks it means ''i'm ok and you're not ok'' (I've read that book) I think the 'you' means the relationship. ie, If you don't value the relationship we could have you don't deserve that relationship. THAT is what it means. Labelling that very sensible way of staying sane in the dating game ''passive aggressive'' or ''arrogant'' is really so far away from how I feel.

your daughters will be rejected and dicked around and treated badly blokes (or women) from time to time. Better for them to be armed with some emotional Teflon

Being treated badly or dicked around is not the same as simply being rejected. Thinking 'that guy is a dickhead' is fine, but using it as a pump to self esteem to cope is as toxic as lining your house with asbestos to protect yourself from fire. It can be a dirty business, I listened to a girl give another a lovely 'you deserve better than that dicked' speech. Few weeks later, guess who 'the dickhead' is running around with now? Ick. My wife got handed the 'you deserve a better man than me' mind fuck from her previous jerkwater boyfriend. Being happy or unhappy, sure, self esteem gets warped by that, but framing it in terms of relationships any more than you absolutely must, is bad karma. Girls get warped to define themselves in terms of what others think, or should think, of them waaay to much and it gives rise to many bad things.

I've been rejected and I didn't think I was rejected because ''he was a dickhead''. Who are you really arguing with here? Your wife's x bf? Cos you're arguing against things that haven't been said and dragging in red herrings.

Clearly your wife didn't didn't think you didn't deserve her as she married you. So that's completely different from what's being discussed here, as you didn't reject her and she wasn't telling herself that you didn't deserve her, so heaven knows why this phrase is such a trigger for you.

All this talk about women who remind themselves not to let a man who has rejected them define their value being toxic, PA, talk of karma lordy blessus what do you sound like.

Perhaps we both need to re-read what the other wrote.