Mistrust Central

[Firsteverchangeofname]

Never name changed before but have decided to for this.

Have been with Dp for almost 8 years and have a 5yo dd. we own house jointly.

It's been a rough ride in many ways in last couple of years two miscarriages one quite late.

Near the beginning I found stuff on his phone. Dirty pics of ex other bits I wasn't happy with. I also found a few things in his car ....glo sticks....huge amounts of tissues etc and he admitted that he had occasionally been dogging prior to our relationship. 'Voyerism and spectating' as he put it. I called it a day.

Following a huge campaign for months of daily flowers and cards and letters of apology I let this man back in my life. He had a sexual health check and things were never great, always had worry that he might still hide things. I found profiles be it old ones on hook up type sites I read messages nothing that indicated he had met up with anyone but he had never deleted them. We had counselling following this.

This was all years ago but it's always been in the back of my mind that he has the ability to lie.

We have had counselling he's gone along but doesn't seem that receptive. He's a closed book ever since I discovered his 'secret' years ago.

On Wednesday we had a wonderful night away with dd planned. As he was loading the boot of his car I noticed a carrier bag and in it were a pair of old trousers 'uniform' ones. I asked what they were doing in his car and he said he didn't really know must be from when we cleared stuff out of garage a few months ago. We did sort out a load of old uniform etc. they had a couple of marks on them. Nothing really ominous but a couple of small marks. For some reason I lifted the carpet base of his boot and on top of the spare wheel I found another pair identical and folded up. Again a couple of marks. I have a feeling these were trousers we sorted out a few months ago. It appears to me that he's hidden them in his boot. Denies he knew they were there.

He says he will get them tested and proove that the stains aren't semen. I requested he have a sexual health check. He was appalled that I could even suggest that he had been elsewhere. He went along and did this. I'm worried that they may be there, as he has been doing or intends to do what he has done in the past.

I took my daughter on her Christmas treat alone and he refuses to move out. His ds was coming for Christmas and I've cancelled her coming as finding the charade too hard to continue.

He's a fantastic dad no other changes in habits always rather be with family than out. Always wants to be with us. I don't feel there has been affairs I just worry about this seedy side and I hate the thought of being lied to again.

I am early 40's and he's 10 years older.

Don't think I've ever done such s lengthy post. Thanks for reading.

For the first time ever I'm on tablets. Just to get through Christmas. Feeling really anxious. Any help greatly appreciated.

We cleared out the Garage. Charity shopped some stuff we tipped others. Probably 5 or 6 months ago. It concerns me that these work trousers were found one pair folded in a bag in boot and one pair folded over the spare wheel concealed. With no explanation. Both with a few visible stains.

With the old 'dogging' past coming to mind it certainly does make me 'speculate' rightly or wrongly.

He doesn't apparently even know why they are there ....so I can't help but fear the worst.

He does know. That's what you have to keep reminding yourself. He does know - he put them there.

I have to say I don't know why he'd have them there, though - I know what goes on in dogging but I didn't think they involved a change of clothes.

Massively grateful for all the views and I keep re reading them all.

No personal Agendas though. I personally have received some fantastic advice from both Jan and AF previously.

You will come to your own conclusion, op. Make sure it us one that you can live with. If the trust is gone, you cannot force it to come back and you don't need to explain why that is to anyone

I know imperial. I know.

My fear is that rather than walk in with a stained uniform if anything has taken place ....he would have the spare trousers to pop on.

Actually can't believe I'm typing this it makes me physically want to vomit.

Not even the act if that makes sense....but the lies and denial if anything has happened.

I don't have an explanation for the trousers thing either. But I believe op when she says how the discovery of them makes her feel. No one should have to feel like that, not for the sake of a relationship. I have absolutely no compunction about reminding women of this fact.

I know AF

The 'conjuring up this trust and confidence from thin air' just about sums it up. Just how I feel about what he must expect and it's ludicrous.

For someone who is apparently wanting to instil trust he's going a strange way about it.

I will charade Christmas for dd and put on a bloody good performance.

I want to give I want to love I find it impossible in this situation. Hate always keeping a quarter of me in reserve just in case more hurt or suspicion comes.

No way to live.

Thanks

Good luck, love. I hope this is the last Xmas you have to put on a charade. One way or the other.

Thank you

First up, I'm going to declare a bias: my husband never stopped using prostitutes - I could never find quite the evidence I "needed" - although I found plenty after I filed for divorce and he got careless
Just because my husband didn't stop acting on his 'kink' doesn't mean you husband hasn't. I know that. But here's my opinion...

Sometimes, you're into something sexually, your new partner isn't, so you leave it behind. But some kinks are more compulsive than others - and easy to compartmentalise. Dogging if you just watch? Well, it's not cheating on you, is it? (he could say) I expect (and other posters are free to call me biased and point out that dogging isn't prostitution) that dogging is more on the compulsive and difficult to walk away from side.

You allude to there being other things. There are the hook up site profiles, undeleted. The fact he still had a car full of tissues and glo sticks AFTER he met you. And the trousers under the carpet? Well that's the most damning thing. Because that DIDN'T happen by accident.

What I think people who haven't been here don't perhaps realise, is how fucking soul destroying it is to have 20 small suspicious things, no single one is proof, no single one is big enough to leave over when you have a child. Any single one can be argued away. Even the one's that can't really - come on, who EVER on here accidentally lost a spare pair of trousers under their boot carpet?

All these things added together creates the body of evidence that destroys the trust and destroys you. But if you describe one to a friend, to a counsellor, to yourself... It just doesn't seem enough. Not to end a marriage over.

It is my guess OP, that in 8 years you have amassed quite a list of things. Photos of an ex... wouldn't bother me. But you also allude to "other bits I wasn't happy with".

I think that you end up with 1 or 2 things that you just can't explain away, to yourself. In my case, I found searches for local escorts on my husband's office laptop, only ever accessed in a shared office (family business, small office for all my previous digging I found these searches accidentally ). His previous explanation was it was only porn. Well - that just didn't fit with a search done at work where he frankly would never have been knocking one out. Hard to explain to those who haven't had the 1000 cuts. But you just can't explain away some things. I'm feeling terribly sad for you, because trousers under the boot carpet falls into that.

The thing is, from the outside, there's no proof there still. It sounds ridiculous "I left my husband because there was a pair of trousers with the spare wheel". It's so vicious, that it makes you look paranoid.

Me? I left my husband because there were lots of deleted text messages to unsaved numbers on a phone a year old. Sounds like not enough to break up a 4yo's home, huh?

I was fortunate to get my evidence later - saw all his adultwork bookings. Including the ones he continued to make after getting a new girlfriend.

Because it's compulsive. (I'm not excusing it, saying that!)

OP, I can't tell you what to do. I stayed too long in my own marriage. But I can't assume that your husband is like mine.

All I can say is, I know how hard it is when it looks paranoid and ridiculous to end it over an oddly placed pair of trousers. And I also know how it is never just the one oddly placed pair of trousers.

Much love and strength to you. xxx

That is a very kind, fair and empathic post, cabrinha

Wonderful post Cabrinha

I would be having a very close look at his car, OP. I think most people feel safe in their car, especially if they are the only driver of the car. I would bet anything there's more to find in that car.

Oh Cabrinha

Yes, yes and yes and yes and more yes.

Tiny things that make me doubt. Tiny, minuscule. Then something like this. Which again without the background would be ridiculous. To me HUGE

Always in the pit of my stomach.

This one won't go away. As AF touched on even if these trousers are tested and clear. I'd still doubt.

Thanks for the post I'm going to keep reading it.

I wish I didn't have the experience to write it

It's just awful, the mental gymnastics you go through to find an explanation. Not to excuse them, but to excuse yourself for staying, because you know something's going on.

I found a bra strap in my car. Didn't see how it could be mine. But convinced myself that even though I rarely wore detachable strap bras, and when I did NEVER took them off, it COULD have been mine. You know - we'd had the car years, I may have packed regular underwear and it was not only stuck to them but fell out of my bag. Even thought - come on, bras cost money and these women are professional - is a prostitute REALLY going to drop it? And anyway, you can imagine him booking a 'high class', but no way is he buying girls off the street to have sex with in the car - no way would he stoop that low in terms of risk.

Now I'm years out of it. Frankly, no way in fuck was that ever my bra strap.

But if I had posted here "I'm going to break up a 4yo's home because of a bra strap that could, with just enough convolution, be mine..." Me will, plenty of people would have (with well meaning kindness) encouraged me to think it could have been mine afterall.

It's just SO soul destroying, living that way. Until the very end I only had proof that he'd "looked".
When he lied the last time and said he was only looking, I finally said "looking is enough for me to end this".

Frankly, it would be OK for the OP to say "I know it was 8 years ago and pre-me, but I'm actually not happy being married to someone who has been dogging. If you've not done it since then it's very harsh for you that I'm ending it, but this is how I feel. I will never be totally happy with you, because of that, I'm sorry."

Imperial

he suggested himself that I take his car apart when I got back from night away with dd. I saw little point as he'd had 24 hours to remove anything.

If I'm honest we swapped cars a couple of years ago for a couple of days....logistical stuff. I found a kind of panel loose behind the handbrake like a little hiding type compartment. It was thick of dust except for a few finger marks which looks like it had been removed. Makes me sound paranoid, but it never sat comfortable with me.

Makes me sound mad like a bloody Miss Marple Type but something makes me notice this stuff.

Oh the Miss Marple stuff!
I remember that
For me, I felt like such a dick accepting his behaviour / lies that it restored a tiny bit of pride, helped my self esteem that I could think "ha! I'm no mug, I'm clever, I've clocked that!" (in addition to it just being desperately trying to find the bloody answer!)

I think my best Marple-ian analysis was this: a newspaper cutting, that had escort details on one side (all the 'massage' small ads from local paper) and on the other side, most of an ad for band that his mate was in, playing locally.

Well - he never went to see his mate's band, but that's pretty compelling - too much of a coincidence. It had to be for the mate's band, right?

OK, Miss Marple time. Imagine you tear an advert from a paper. You need to fold it twice to get it into your wallet. Picture it in front of you. Mentally do it. Yep, I actually had a couple of wonderful, close friends do this 'test'. I bet the info you WANT, is folded inside.

The prostitute numbers were on the inside.

Every other receipt or note scrap in his wallet was folded info inside.

How the fuck do you explain to anyone, including yourself, that you are divorcing someone because a prostitute number is on the inside of a piece of paper?

All of MN would have said "you're fucking crazy! And that's too much of a coincidence, the band!"

But I was right.

I'm sorry to talk so much about ME ☺️ I just want you to know, that if you have similar small things, please don't ever feel you're paranoid or crazy. You may even be wrong about some - but if you are, you're just wrong, not crazy. And I share it in the hope that those lucky enough not to have been surrounded by lies will also understand that a hidden pair or trousers, or finger prints on a dusty lid, is not crazy talk.

Cabrinha, oh how I relate.

I'm saddened to hear what you went through, however so much of it resonates with me. Each tiny thing....mmm maybe an explanation then next....next....

Certainly makes me feel like I'm not going crazy. It's truly horrible and eats you up.

Thanks so much for posting I keep reading through them.

I always have a hollow laugh when I read frequently on here people advising "present the evidence and watch them, you can tell by their reaction".

My XH wasn't particularly bright or manipulative - but he's just say "I didn't do it, I know it looks bad, I swear on life, I'm so unlucky..."

Stonewalling you is incredibly powerful. If they stick to denial, you have only one option: to outright call them a liar, and that's surprisingly hard to do. It feels very aggressive.

I really feel for you, because it sounds like there are / have been positives in your relationship. My XH and I should never have married - he disappointed me in so much.

Even our counsellor (XH came once then was too ill ) said "you must be able to see why the evidence she me runs through looks so bad?"

I sometimes wish I could book a session now, just to say "go on then..." I bet the counsellor would say "I see these lying cheating scumbags every day of the week and I know they're lying but it isn't my place to say it, though I want to, every time".

That's my fantasy, anyway!

I really want to post "no way in hell did those trousers get there other than him putting them there, LTB". But... I don't feel I should force my opinion.

But please please please let me repeat - please never feel that you are paranoid or crazy or "have trust issues". Sometimes, you'll be on high alert and have a false positive. That's a result of his behaviour. It is not because you are crazy.

Much simpler for me because I was glad to finally feel I had enough to end it, I'd been ground down and wanted out. I think you'd still like proof it's all a mistake and he isn't still dogging.

Now, the Miss Marple stuff is soul destroying, so I'm reluctant to suggest this, but... when he works away, is it varied locations? If so, try checking in car satnav if he has it and googling the postcodes. I never thought to do it til after we split (still living together then). Found two postcodes that matched massage parlours. You might find matches for known dogging sites.

What a thing to have a 'top tip' for

Thanks again Cabrinha
I feel my Miss Marpleing days are coming to an end.

Not a l

Whoops posted too soon.

Not a long term fix I know but these tablets the Dr has given me are helping me sleep. I can't remember last time I had 6 hours straight.

At least I can recharge my batteries.

Thanks all

*Anyfucker and Jan45 jumping straight onto the LTB bandwagon again. Who'd have thought it?

I wish folk (particularly you two) would realise this site isn't a game and these are real peoples lives that your glib, predictable and negative views potentially affect.*

Wish away - I wish you weren't a nasty little goader but hey, we all have to live with negatives and positives.

The OP is happy with my advice and I think you will find AF holds her high esteem here due to her excellent advice - you'd probably like it better if we were encouraging women to stay with shit men - then again, you'd probably pick fault with that too, folk like you are not here to help, only stir the pot.

I did four years of this crazy stuff then couldn't do it anymore and went on ADs. They are wonderful and give you a good nights sleep and give you more clarity and determination.
My DH had been using escorts for about ten years which I would swear to god he wasn't the type. He actually believed it was my fault such is their delusion and entitlement.
Little things eat you up I know.

I knew someone who was having an affair who used his car to hide all sorts of things - another phone, a spare SIM, money amongst them. Next to the spare tyre was a popular place.

Happened to me years ago imperial

I crept into an exes car in the night and thought where would He hide stuff. There was a panel under the handbrake which I slid off. I found a mobile phone and my work rosters highlighted on the nights I would be away.

He was a pathetic lying scum bag but I must admit it hasn't helped my suspicious nature. I refuse to live like this as a woman in her 40's. Bloody ridiculous.