The ever-so-present ghost of the ex-wife

[CostaRicanBananas]

I have a problem with my husband’s relationship with his ex-wife. There have been various issues with regards to his arrangements to see his children, including lies that he’s told in order to keep peace / sell a different picture of the situation to me / keep everyone happy. However, this post is specifically about his communication with his ex.

I have snooped and I know that they communicate frequently, possibly on a daily basis. There are phone calls and messages, and although I have not read anything inappropriate (sexual or flirty), I don’t want my husband to be his ex-wife’s pen-pal. The times when I snooped, I noticed that he had deleted previous messages so I only caught the latest one. If they had been written to anyone else, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought, but this is the woman who always wants to be present and who isn’t in a relationship. And I have a DH who likes to be needed and the attention, no matter how innocent.

I have told myself time and time again that he’s married to me, has got our pictures all over his social media and that his daily life is with me. There’s no question of his dedication to our lives together, but would he tolerate me being best buddies with my ex? No, he wouldn’t. Have I explained this to him? Yes, of course, which is why he feels compelled to hide it – I have even said, in moments of despair (because sometimes, even without seeing the evidence you just sense that something is up), that if there was nothing wrong then there would be no need for lies and secrecy.

I hate it and it’s ruining the dynamics of our relationship. I occasionally check my whatsapp and I can see that he’s been on his, which he seems to do frequently – don’t you just hate the joys of modern technology?! I can’t help thinking that it’s yet another exchange between the exes. The truth is that I think about it all the time, almost to the point of obsessing about it, but I am not going to behave out of character and start messaging my own husband all day long for the sake of keeping him occupied?! How can I address this and does this qualify as emotional unfaithfulness??

It's reassuring to hear about those who have an amicable relationship with their exes.

Unicorn sorry for asking but are you in a relationship? As I wonder how your other half feels.

And no, their break up had nothing to do with me. By the time I met DH, he had already had a couple of girlfriends and they had been separated (and consequently divorced) for a number of years. It does sound like I need to address my insecurities...

I most certainly don't want to have a problem or feel threatened by their best mates relationship.

What concerns me here is that you seem to be saying you want help on squashing your feelings - having already squashed them in response to some earlier events in this relationship.

I will not advise you to squash your feelings. That will make you intensely miserable for many years, damage your mental health to some degree and poison your marriage.

Your husband should not be hiding stuff from you. He should be working, like a grown-up, to resolve the problem.

So: Counselling. Even so, a weak counsellor (there are many) may choose to treat this as you being unreasonable, which won't help you!

I'm assuming you don't like the ex? So joining in and becoming pals won't work?

Can you get to know her better? Is there any chance that you might become friends.

I know that sounds far fetched or asking a lot, but given the demise of their marriage had nothing to do with you, it should be possible.

You shouldn't be jealous, you should stop snooping and you should let it slide, basically. I think if you don't you're likely to destroy your own marriage. Its not going to fit that ideal where the exes all stay in the past, because of the children.

I hope you find a way through this, I don't think he is doing anything wrong in communicating with her and can see that he might get a bit dishonest if under pressure about it.

LeaLander can I ask if you'd say the same if the children were well into their 20s?

I have some of your issues OP. It's not led by my DH but he is poor with boundaries and difficult conversations and so he has enabled it, IMO. His ex wife - whose communication re their adult children is spot on and I agree with her there - also still sees him as her confidant and over 4 years on pours out her feelings for him which range from anger to unrequited love. It's worse if she's home alone drinking. He mostly ignores but doesn't say to stop texting, she is full of insults about me at times so he is secretive and sometimes lies to prevent having to discuss it.

Urgh. I get it and it's probably near the top of the list of the reasons we are heading into counselling next year.

I agree with garlick.

You are always going to feel insecure if he is lying and being secretive.

Life's too short to live with that kind of patheticness.

If my partner was snooping on my texts etc I would be inclined to delete them as well. Not because I had anything to hide but because I would be appalled at the lack of trust from a partner. And fwiw I have been on the receiving end of this kind of thing where there was an assumption that I was guilty of something and that therefore someone had the right to snoop to check. I locked down everything, phone, deleted texts etc because of the fact I felt intruded on.

So when people talk about someone deleting messages etc don't always assume that it's. Done out of guilt, the op has already admitted she snoops and gives her DH a hard time. Perhaps he then doesn't. Tell for an easier life.

He has children with his ex. The better their communication can be, the better it is for everyone. And if they're divorced they presumably shared a life once. There's nothing wrong with remaining friends after a split, in fact it's. Preferable IMO.

I think the big thing her is when the level of investment currently with the ex appears to be as much as with you.

As a parallel, DH and I went through a stage where he was working so much that we never got time or went out together. There were a few work evenings. I felt very neglected because I had no social life, no time with him and 100% of his leisure time one week was spent with others doing things o couldn't.

Now the balance is better and because we're getting plenty of quality time together, his work functions aren't a big deal anywaore because feel the most important to him.

I hope you get the drift of what I'm trying to say

I think OP is being made to feel vulnerable by the messaging, understandable IMO if DH has had poor boundaries so far. Trust, for some people, takes a long time to establish and second time round relationships or marriages are often prone to intrusions, as OP might see it, of this kind.

I think you need a Boundaries Talk with DH, OP. Or a series of them, but for goodness' sake don't bottle it up. It may seem very serious to you now, but frequency of communication may well diminish with time, and I speak from experience.

On the basis of what you have told us, I don't think your marriage is threatened by this, but I also wouldn't want to minimise what a pita it is for you.

From reading this thread I get the impression his lying predates her snooping tbh.

What's clear is a relationship with lying and snooping can't be allowed to continue in the way it is.

OP,I can understand why you'd feel hurt and be so upset.I think most people would feel the same,needing to talk about the children is one thing but catching up with each other all the time is something different.

I have 2 DS with my ex husband and I talk to him as little as possible.I've remarried and DH and I have 5DC,he has remarried and has gone onto have 2 more children.My DH communicates with my ex husband for me because I've had lots of problems with my ex in the past acting sleazy towards me and trying to talk me into taking him back and that would never ever happen!!

Honestly I think you need to talk to him and tell him that for you this issue is ruining the relationship.

That's not normal. I couldn't care less if my x never contacted me.

Our path has gone more or less like this:

• DH lied right at the start about his sleeping arrangements when seeing his children. He used to conveniently stay at the ex's house every other week or so.
• As he realised that I was unlike to accept certain things, and I made it clear that I expected more defined boundaries, he started to become more and more secretive about that part of his life. In turn, this prompted me to snoop as I wasn't ready to continue in a relationship (and eventual marry) a man whose life had elements that I knew I couldn't live with. I simply had to know where things stood, and I wasn't sure I was getting the truth.
• Arrangement issues are still a work in progress, but we've come a very long way. DH has made significant changes and although there is still uncertainty, we have very slowly moved in the right direction. However, using this as an example, I still don't know why the option of his DC coming to us every other week hasn't quite taken off - first I was told that the ex had even suggested it, but that was followed by excuses such as the cost of travel for her and the children's activities at the weekend. Therefore, once again, snooping seems to be the only way of knowing where things stand.
• There were specific lies and secrecy around certain things such as DH not telling the ex or children about us being engaged, when everyone else knew it. If they are such good friends...?? Or her plans to take the children across the world to visit DH's family which I only heard about when one of the DC let it slip.
• The issue with their communication and the reason why I've struggled to deal with it: exchanges about cakes, pictures and generic work problems. Whereas it all looks very innocent, it evokes familiarity and frequent contact.
• I feel ashamed of my snooping and I've got things wrong too. There have been plenty of times, including when DH was asking for my opinion on something the ex had messaged him about. These was in the early days, and instead of focusing on the question in hand, I was consumed by jealously. That told DH not to ask me again and...

DH has worked hard to get things right, although he'll do whatever he can to avoid confrontation and keep everyone happy. I am not making excuses for his lies and lack of transparency, but we've both played a part here. I've already mentioned that I was ill-prepared to deal with the ins and outs of a modern family set up - it's not for everyone and I am currently seeing close friends on the verge of breaking up as they struggle to manage all the emotional demands of blended families. Above all, I hate how snooping makes me feel - it's demeaning and disrespectful; I also hate how I feel about DH's comms with the ex. I want not to care because it should never represent a threat to our relationship. So if you could please share your thoughts in terms of perhaps rationalising the situation or point out a way of looking at it under new light, I am all ears!! (and am most grateful) I know about being happy about them getting on etc for the children's sake but I am still waiting for a poster to say that their DPs interact with their exes all the time, like best buddies, and that they don't mind at all. Or for those that have said that they are in frequent touch with their exes, do you have a partner and are they ok with it? If so, did it work out like that or did you have to show that there was nothing to it but friendship? Last but not least, I think the ex miss having a husband, not necessarily her ex-husband though! I am NOT saying that she's desperate but that there's a type of familiar exchange that you normally only have with your partner, especially about mundane stuff. And DH is happy to fulfil that need... or that's how I see it anyway.

How old are your husband's DC?

He sounds selfish. He kept both feet under the table at his ex-wife's house and enjoyed the long history and the children having both parents together etc,,, the mundane stuff you describe, he enjoys that and values it clearly or he wouldn't keep going back for more, and yet ....he's also had the excitement of new relationships. Not just you I mean, before you. Regardless of whether it was his decision to leave, he has managed to hold on to the original family and can dip in and out on his own schedule. And what can you say, he's not sleeping with her, and it's good for his children to see their parents communicate so well together, but he could have negotiated new boundaries that you could accept and then been honest. Instead, he just carried on doing exactly what he wanted to do and then lied to you. A real prince!

He needs to make a sacrifice.

YOu have a part-time half-time husband whom you strongly suspect will lie to you to do what suits him. His xw hasn't remarried. Does he leave room in her life for her to consider dating? Or is he there just enough to fulfil that (social not sexual) need for a partner. HE is the only one that has it all. He is the one who suits himself. So can he make a sacrifice?

ps, I think you are very aware to recognise that his X misses a husband but not necessarily yours. I think that if he backed away far enough for long enough she would be more motivated (by loneliness :-/ and space too) to go out and build new friendships and new relationships. At the moment, he's there all the time taking up her time and filling that social need juuuuust enough to prevent her from finding somebody else.

I think your husband is not only hurting you by having all these blurry boundaries but to be crude, he's kind of like a dog, urinating around his original family too. Sorry that is a very vulgar way of putting it.

CostaRica: you said "there's a type of familiar exchange that you normally only have with your partner, especially about mundane stuff. And DH is happy to fulfil that need"

Absolutely. Sorry if I'm not helping, as in my previous post I'm empathising really. Like mince says it would, after all the short term angst, be better for her never mind you.

The reason I have chosen to address this all in counselling is:

1. my DH like yours is avoidance so we have a conversation, he agrees, I'm relieved, but he does what he likes anyway with more secrecy
2. I'm not prepared to police it, overtly or covertly
3. I need him to understand it's make or break.

It's obviously a little different as DHs children are adults. But this is where I'm at with it. Maybe the counsellor will have stuff to draw out that I do wrong or could change for DH's benefit and I'm up for hearing that too. Would your DH go to a counsellor with you??

Gosh, Costa :( With that background, I am far from surprised you feel uneasy about their relationship. And, regrettably, a partner who purposely conceals a part of his life does pretty much force you to 'snoop'.

I'm really sorry you're living with this - and not quite sure how you've managed it for so long! I've no advice that doesn't involve at least acting as if you're ready to end the marriage. I can understand why you might not want to be so drastic, so all I can do is ... wish you luck.

Thank you, all
I stated it all very clearly from the start; and whether right or wrong, I have always been very vocal about what I could or not live with. There was certainly an element of me wanting to believe that DH could bring us to a state of transparency and solid foundations.
I won't go into the contact arrangements as this is another problematic issue; I only mentioned it to explain (not necessarily justify) what prompted me to snoop. My view is that while DH was quite happy to go along with a convenient arrangement, the ex was also quite happy to accommodate it and have the constant presence of her ex-husband in her life. It takes two. Likewise, she may instigate constant communication with all sort of excuses but DH has a choice of how often and how to respond.

Does he still stay at ex's to see the kids?

I'll mention counseling, something that hasn't been discussed yet. His DC are 12 and 10, and live some distance away. DH only sees his ex when he's up to see the children or on the rare occasions when they've met half way. It's the electronic comm that seems to be pretty active. The boundaries in terms of contact arrangements etc have become much clearer and the whole dynamics of it have improved dramatically but... It feels that she's always there, in the background and it breaks my heart that DH chooses to hide and lie to keep it going - why?!?!? What does he gain? I have his full-time attention and he showers me with love and affection. If he's doing this to keep peace, keep the ex sweet or because he enjoys the attention... I don't know...

No, he started staying at a friends but that's due to change as the friend is moving homes. I want to believe that DH will stick to his plan of us going up together or his DC coming down; otherwise we are heading for more heartache, and I don't believe I can take much more. What I've mentioned here before (and to DH) is that by lying and painting a different picture of the circumstances, he took away my right to decide whether the relationship was for me or not.

I'd say he's doing it for the very simple reason that this way he gets to have everything. 12 & 10, still quite young. So he gets to keep his feet under the family table and watch the children grow up in the relaxed atmosphere of a home. And he gets to go home to you a newer relationship, a separate world. Lovely, moving between two different worlds. We'd all have a bit of that if we could. And all he has to do to achieve and maintain this nirvana? lie to you. Easy peasy, he's been doing it for ages and nothing really bad has happened yet.

He is more like a part time family man than a divorced dad. and that is what he WANTS so why would he change that?

Is he doing this to stay on good terms with the ex, so that

1. He gets to see his kids frequently
2. His kids see two parents who don't live together anymore, but still love/respect one another?

A girl I went to school with had parents like that. Divorced, but he would stay at her house when he came to see my friend (they lived half way across the country). Very friendly terms, still in one another's lives, met new partners, talked through important stuff with one another. They told her "We still love one another, we're just not suited to living together".

Of all the people I've known with divorced parents (myself included) she is easily the least fucked up. No drama at school, happy student, good career, always dated good guys, married to a nice guy now with kids herself. No angst.

That doesn't make it easy for you. But if he is doing it for the health and happiness of his kids, I agree with PP that your choice is to decide whether you can live with it or not, and if you can't, then bow out gracefully.

I hear what you are saying about him not making those circumstances clear at the beginning, so you didn't know what you were getting into. But, to be fair, if you get into a relationship with man with children, you do so knowing he has other calls on his time and affection, and that, if he is a decent dad, he will also maintain a good relationship with the children's mum (even if it's less than this). He should have been clearer on how involved he still was, but there was always going to be some diversion. But really that deception is a reason to leave the relationship, not a reason to fight for it.

OP I totally understand what you're saying.

You have every right to feel uncomfortable and to express your discomfort at the level of their contacts. You also have every right to feel upset by his lying.

For some people (men) the easy way is to lie about everything rather than address things in a mature fashion.

They would rather avoid hearing and witnessing the other person's (the woman's) distress over the original problem and choose to create more distress by lying and sneaking around not realising how astute and aware people (women) can be.

I don't know the answer, I have given up on so many liars.

I hate liars and I ended my marriage with my DS' dad because I couldn't live with it. I had absolutely nothing to do with other women, but he was a liability with money and general responsibilities. It's awful so I now wonder how I've found myself in this situation. In all fairness, the lies started long before DH proposed and that was probably when I should have called it a day. However, 'love is blind'... or we just want to believe that things will be ok? He did and has taken steps to change arrangements etc but things that happened in the past still come back to haunt us / me.
I've tried to be reasonable but the doubts make me so utterly unhappy and it poisons our relationship.