Am I the victim or perpetrator of emotional abuse in my marriage?

[MatchDullness]

AIBU to want to see my aging parents?
Am I the perpetrator or victim of emotional abuse?
Should I stay in my 25 year + relationship or should I go?

My wife and I are in our mid-fifties, I have severely limited contact with my parents and sister. Our young teenage sons have only seen my parents twice in their lives. My wife forbids contact saying they have always put her down, set an appalling example that the boys should not be exposed to and that if I want more contact I should leave her – in which case I can have free access to the boys provided I never introduce them to my parents and sister.

I am at my wits end, my parents are in their early eighties and aging fast, not being in contact with them them is having a corrosive effect on me, my wife says having contact would be intolerable for her reiterating that I have a choice, honor her, my marriage and our children or leave to have the contact with my parents and sister. She is very scathing about my pain, citing the fact her parents are dead and she has had cancer for which she blames the shock of discovering I had been having covert contact with my parents and sister. She tells me I should focus on what I have and get on with life with her in the same way that she gets on with hers. She feels emotionally abused, I do too.

I have tried to put the pain of separation from my parents and sister out of my mind, getting on with my wife by adopting Le Carre’s Maria Ostrakova’s mantra for withstanding interrogation; “Never to match rudeness with rudeness, never to be provoked, never to score, never to be witty or superior or intellectual, never to be deflected by fury, or despair or the sudden hope that an occasional question might arouse. To match dullness with dullness and routine with routine. And only deep deep down to preserve the secrets that make the humiliation bearable” – but I don’t do it well and now find the situation intolerable.

If anyone has any advice or comment to make I’d welcome it, there is of course a long story behind the current impasse – I’ve written it up trying to be fair to my wife though obviously it reflects my perspective, It runs to over 8000 words – I’m new to discussion sites but suspect that is too much for one post but if anyone is up for reading it let me know.

Thanks

Jonathan

And no- don't hide it.
Be honest at all times - nobody deserves to be lied to!

Of course being demeaning or condescending can be toxic. We can't know whether it is or isn't part of generalised toxic behaviour.

Is it just me?

Or have I gone back into the 1940s. Sorry, but this thread has made me laugh so much.

Within a year of our meeting I brought my first house, my parents contributed half the deposit as an investment. my wife P would stay over most weekends; when collecting furniture from my parent’s home (I’d gone alone with a van) my father offered me a spare single bed, I declined explaining that P & I would buy a double. My mother (a strict believer in no sex before marriage) suggested we should marry. I recounted this to P. She was not happy! how could I have shared such intimate detail with my parents?, what business was it of theirs to suggest we wed? With hindsight I can see that I should not have allowed a discussion to develop with my mother about the advisability of prompt marriage and been more circumspect in what I relayed to P, my excuse is that perhaps belatedly I was only just finding my feet as an independent adult – but that was over 25 years ago..)

It doesn't matter one jot what the parents may or may not have done.

Maybe they are / have been toxic. If that's the case the wife is entitled to not have contact with them. It is never ever ok to force someone else to go no contact. His contact with his parents doesn't affect her.

I'd call her bluff Op. Don't ask her if she will allow you to see your parents. Your an adult and you don't need her permission. TELL her you are going to be in regular contact with your parents and if she wants to divorce over it she can.

Laughing at someone in a shit situation who asks for advice? Really?

What kind of arsehole does that?

My PILs never allowed us to sleep together under their roof when we were unmarried, and they encouraged us to get married. So did my Gran. And they are the least toxic people in the world!

The OP says his parents are in their 80s. So they were born in the late 1920s/early 30s. So yes their values will be those of the 40s/50s. And in the late 80s, they were much more commonly held views (although I admit not typical).

Springy with the greatest respect you've no idea what caused your cancer.

You went through stress and then you got cancer, they may not be related and there is no clear causal link. There are genetic causes of cancer and environmental causes, and some are caused by viruses. If everyone who experienced stress got cancer there would be many more cases of it.

I understand you want your world to make sense, and it's easier to live with the idea that a caused be than that b randomly occurred.

But no reputable oncologist would ever speculate about something so abstruse and unscientific.

I'm sorry but I don't see anything wrong with the conversation you had with your parents
You said you would be getting a double bed. Not over sharing.
Your mum expressed her PoV about sex before marriage. One I'm sure she has shared before. Said she would like you to marry ASAP.
And then what??? You gave this used whether you should get married or not with her. Or when to do so.
That's the sort of conversation I would have with my parents. I would am also be relating that to DH and we would (gently) laughing at them living in a different world than us. That's it.
I can't see anything wrong about what you did.

In your opinion Twinkle! In your opinion.

I'm surprised you took the trouble to post that tbh. You can't know and neither can I, except I've experienced it.

Please don't push the point. I found your post offensive. Not all life is theory.

OP, quite aside from who is in the right and whether you should leave, I am hoping you are ok. You sound detached and (understandably) miserable. Your intellectualising of this sounds a good distraction from facing the torment of the situation. Your parents ageing and your wife ill would be a terrible strain but the intolerable-sounding situation must compound things horribly for you. I just hope you are taking care of yourself and your children.

Perhaps you don't think it relevant but it might be helpful for posters to know: do you consider that you love your wife? And what would the practicalities re childcare should you split?

Wishing you the very best op, what a sad situation

Perhaps you should suggest to your DW that you move out for a few months to give you both a chance to reappraise your relationship. That way you can visit who you like, take DCs or no.

You seem so invested in this marriage that you can prob not envisage being apart. She will prob threaten that she won't have you back. then that is her decision to make.

I can't see anything changing whilst you are where you are. I would also speak to a solicitor to see how you stand if you were to separate but you prob won't want to do that, foolishly.

Are my parents toxic, to me I would say no (I found this on line assessment which I think supports this view). Would my wife agree, probably not I think she thinks them toxic.

When you were a child...

Did your parents tell you were bad or worthless? - No

Did your parents use physical pain to discipline you? No

Did you have to take care of your parents because of their problems? My mother suffered from depression, has since been diagnosed with Aspergers, I identified with how she felt better than my father so as a teenager I was in some ways a carer but only when at home (Who if they could stop their mother crying when their father could not, would not do so). I went to boarding school, then university (200+ miles from home) then got a job also relatively far from home sometimes having no contact for several months, usually returning home on a similar cycle to that instilled whilst at boarding school.

Were you frightened of your parents? No

Did your parents do anything to you that had to be kept secret? No

Now that you are an adult...

Do your parents still treat you as if you were a child?, initially as a young adult yes in someways, but not now

Do you have intense emotional or physical reactions after spending time with your parents? No

Do your parents control you with threats or guilt? No

Do they manipulate you with money? No

Do you feel that no matter what you do, it's never good enough for your parents? No

One of my answers prompts the question am I asbergers as well?
I score 37 on the test at www.aspergerstestsite.com/aq-test/#.VkL9C_nhDWI suggesting that I probably am.
My wife sees my mother’s formal diagnosis (made only recently) my self diagnosis and some traits in our children as an excuse, - from a sociability point of view I should make more effort as should the children.

I think you're finding offence where there's none Springy, certainly none intended. You're not the only person who's been ill.

It's interesting that your wife thinks that your mother's Asperger's diagnosis and your potential Asperger's as an 'excuse'... and that you should just make 'more effort'. She doesn't really seem to have grasped the issues here.

If you are ASD spectrum it would explain why you find it so hard to read what's going on here.

Posters have said it doesn't matter what's going on in your marriage if you're both unhappy you should end it. In some ways that's true. But you need to understand the dynamics of your marriage. And potentially a decision about what to do will rest on what you identify as going on.

I have never seen a woman post a thread on here asking if her partner is abusive to be told that it doesn't matter if he is or not. Of course it matters.

This is from my perspective as a man and having left what I considered to be an emotionally abusive relationship fairly recently.
I am amazed that you have allowed her to forbid you from seeing or contacting your parents. You are allowed to visit and contact who you like regardless of what your wife thinks. This tactic is one often used by controlling people - they will try to separate you from your support networks so that they can have a greater influence over your behavour. I would say that IME it has been rather more subtle than being given an ultimatum in this way. My ex used to escalate any disagreement to the point of saying 'in that case if thats what you think then I think we should split up'. She was completely bewildered when one day I agreed with her and she immediately started back tracking and being conciliatory but by then it was too late. My advice would be call her bluff - it is terrible enough that you have lived for a generation having limited contact with your parents - do you really want this to continue? They will be dead soon.

I work in cancer research peripherally, and IMO there is no conclusive scientific justification for your wife to pin the cause her cancer on your behavour. Cancer is caused by lots of things, DNA gets damaged for a variety of reasons and as we age we all pick up DNA mutations - it is natural. Some of these happen to be life threatening, most don't. To say that it is your fault is most definitely abusive - it amounts to the most terrible form of guilt tripping.
Reading your message I can't really understand why you are with someone who treats you like this. Have confidence that your kids will love you regardless of whether you stay with her or not. As adults they may well have a very different perspective on things than they do now.

I think you should plan to see them, tell her openly about it. She doesn't have to see them and neither of your Dcs, but you should matter of dactyl say that you're going - for you own reasons. Nothing to do with her.

Call her bluff. She may go crazy but let her. You're a grown man.

I can never 'let' or 'not let' my dh do anything and vice versa. We often say "would it be ok if I did......" But that's normal for us. I don't think what your wife is demanding of you is 'normal' for anyone.

I have never met my partner's parents, he has told me, his mother has always caused problems in all his past relationships. I do believe him.

However they are his parents, he loves them, they love him. They are both in their 80s, both quite frail. I encourage him to visit, they need him.

OP your wife needs to show some compassion. I couldn't share my life with someone who couldn't.
Be upfront. You are not being unreasonable.

Is ill twinkle. It's not for you to tell me what I find offensive, intended or not.

That checklist is quite blunt op. Abuse can be more subtle than that. An overarching criteria could be: is your relationship with your parents characterised by fear or obligation or guilt.

However, this situation sounds extremely fraught. Eg I can quite see how wires can get horribly crossed when there are aspergers traits in the mix. High probability of offence.

Abusers could very easily look like they fit on the spectrum btw. The jury is probably out on that.

I don't think I have presented the FOG component fairly as all three - Fear Obligation Guilt (FOG) - could characterise a healthy and normal dynamic with esp aged parents. FOG, all three together, tend to be the hallmark of an abusive dynamic for the victim.

Re FOG
I am not and never have been frightened of my parents , but am now somewhat frightened they will die before I get to make amends - which I want to do for my self, they have said they are prepared for life to go on as it has for last 25 years, what matters most to them they say is my happiness
I do feel some obligation and guilt, they are my loving parents who I have ignored for 25 years
but toxic, I think not

Exactly. That was the point I was making that fear, obligation and guilt can be 'normal' fear, obligation and guilt when our parents are old and we are older (less selfish? Less self-absorbed) and face some uncomfortable truths about our behaviour.

Op I think considering the age of your parents , you need to need to see them. Don't let her disapproval stop you. It's all smoke and mirrors.

OP, i'm not surprised at all that you suspect you may have ASD.

i think this is the undercurrent i read in your posts... you read as unaware of/bewildered by emotional nuances, and speak in a strange, detached way about yourself and your wife.

you and your wife don't get along.
she does sound unreasonable.
i suspect she may be tremendously frustrated by things that are, actually, normal and neutral behaviours/ways of thinking for someone who has ASD.

that doesn't excuse her behaviour towards you though.

i suspect like all such rs there are many layers of misunderstanding and mistrust and insecurity that are driving her... but... you can't suffer for that. those are her issues. you can't help.

she doesn't sound like she meets your needs and some of the things she demands from you are making you frightened and miserable.

that is not normal, in a healthy rs people talk about things and find solutions and support each other. this is not happening here.

i think you should leave.

if you do have ASD, i have even more empathy for you because i know thinking of changing things so fundamentally is very daunting, you are used to things being the way they are even though they are pretty shit.

but you don't have to live like this.

get some support and leave this woman. go and be with your parents.