Am I the victim or perpetrator of emotional abuse in my marriage?

[MatchDullness]

AIBU to want to see my aging parents?
Am I the perpetrator or victim of emotional abuse?
Should I stay in my 25 year + relationship or should I go?

My wife and I are in our mid-fifties, I have severely limited contact with my parents and sister. Our young teenage sons have only seen my parents twice in their lives. My wife forbids contact saying they have always put her down, set an appalling example that the boys should not be exposed to and that if I want more contact I should leave her – in which case I can have free access to the boys provided I never introduce them to my parents and sister.

I am at my wits end, my parents are in their early eighties and aging fast, not being in contact with them them is having a corrosive effect on me, my wife says having contact would be intolerable for her reiterating that I have a choice, honor her, my marriage and our children or leave to have the contact with my parents and sister. She is very scathing about my pain, citing the fact her parents are dead and she has had cancer for which she blames the shock of discovering I had been having covert contact with my parents and sister. She tells me I should focus on what I have and get on with life with her in the same way that she gets on with hers. She feels emotionally abused, I do too.

I have tried to put the pain of separation from my parents and sister out of my mind, getting on with my wife by adopting Le Carre’s Maria Ostrakova’s mantra for withstanding interrogation; “Never to match rudeness with rudeness, never to be provoked, never to score, never to be witty or superior or intellectual, never to be deflected by fury, or despair or the sudden hope that an occasional question might arouse. To match dullness with dullness and routine with routine. And only deep deep down to preserve the secrets that make the humiliation bearable” – but I don’t do it well and now find the situation intolerable.

If anyone has any advice or comment to make I’d welcome it, there is of course a long story behind the current impasse – I’ve written it up trying to be fair to my wife though obviously it reflects my perspective, It runs to over 8000 words – I’m new to discussion sites but suspect that is too much for one post but if anyone is up for reading it let me know.

Thanks

Jonathan

it sounds like this is what has happened:

you're posh, and tend to be condescending.
she's not posh, and is offended by toffs talking down to her (understandably).

you turned to your parents for rs advice (which is weird, frankly - unless your parents are really saints - you yourself say they come across as condescending, so i assume they are not saints - so, that was a stupid idea, live and learn).

they spoke ill of her. (again - they are clearly not saints - most people aren't)

she found out and felt offended. you presumably didn't take her part, and defended your parents, rather than saying "you know what, you're right. let me set boundaries with my parents and reset all of this, and let's try again, i will tell my parents that you are my priority and they need to fall in line behind you". i assume you said something like "well they love me, they just want the best for me, let's forget about it, i won't do it again".

anyway then you DID do it again - you went back to them a few times for more advice. behind her back. even though they spoke ill of her. even though she was hurt that they spoke ill of her.

this is called "not walking the walk". you tell your wife you love her, but don't show her that you do. so... you've destroyed the trust in the rs.

i assume you prefer your parents to her? if you had to choose between having her support, and having their support, you'd rather have theirs? do they have money and you're concerned about your inheritance?
(you can love your parents but also be concerned about money at the same time... doesn't make you a bad person)

honestly, i feel an undercurrent in all your posts that you think your wife is unreasonable (and maybe she is), and that you really want your parents in your life. BUT, as with all rs, you can't change someone else's mind.

your wife is who she is. you are who you are. if you dearly want something that your wife doesn't want, and you can't come to an agreement about it even after years of trying to, then for god's sake, let your wife go, move on with your life and repair your rs with your parents.

shovel, it was bad advice. You're projecting your own situation on to the OP. OP doesn't say they are deliberately condescending, he says that sometimes they can come across that way. He also doesn't say they tried to stop him marrying, he just said they talked to him about the relationship, which is normal for parents to do. The incident he is talking about was years ago. And given the situation the OP now finds himself in, do you not think perhaps there was some basis to their concerns? You're reading far too much into what he's said. A conversation about his relationship 25 years ago is not a reason for this continuing NC. He doesn't say they interfered, just that they spoke to him.

Also, his wife isn't trying to manage the situation as a team like you are, she's just unilaterally decided that the family are going NC. It's a typical pattern of abusive behaviour, cutting the abused off from their family, if anybody mentions concerns they are evil and must be cut off. He is an adult and she has no right to control how often he sees his family.

And the things she's said about the split, using his sons to continue controlling by making access conditional on what he wants to do, is pretty awful.

FFS thestamp how is this his fault? So we all have to weep over women with controlling partners, but when a man is being controlled he has 'destroyed the trust' in the relationship because he won't submit to complete control?

Honestly, as soon as a man has a problem some people on this forum lose all common sense.

If a woman had posted on here saying that her partner wouldn't let her see her parents, had banned her from contact with her family, or her children from seeing them, over her parents voicing some pretty well founded concerns 25 years previously, and that they intended to use access to the children to control who they contacted after a split; you'd all be spitting LTB and EA. The exact same problem from a man and you're saying it's all his fault for not doing as he's told!

Sometimes Mumsnet is almost beyond parody.

He said himself he didn't support his wife through bereavement and cancer.

Do you say why you want to stay with your DW?

It's a toss up between staying with your DW, for whatever reasons you have as a couple, or leaving and seeing a lot of your elderly DPs.

I can't see what hashing it out here will gain.

With regard to the breast cancer - if someone is in such a stressed relationship that it causes breast cancer they clear out of it, they don't stay in it and berate the culprit - which makes me think the DW is not being honest.

He said himself he didn't support his wife through bereavement and cancer

No, he said that she said that, not the same thing. I asked him if he thought that was valid.

If a woman had posted on here saying that her partner wouldn't let her see her parents, had banned her from contact with her family, or her children from seeing them, over her parents voicing some pretty well founded concerns 25 years previously, and that they intended to use access to the children to control who they contacted after a split; you'd all be spitting LTB and EA. The exact same problem from a man and you're saying it's all his fault for not doing as he's told!

I have to agree.

Liney, no, he says she says he didn't support her. Doesn't say this true. There is a big difference. Anyway, even if he didn't support her very well, that doesn't mean punishing OP by withdrawing his access to his family is an appropriate thing to do. No healthy adult relationship involves that kind of punishment.

Unless you're a carer present 24/7 I think most people would feel they could have done more to support a partner through serious illness.

My father wasn't much use when my mum went though health stuff because he just didn't know how to react and doesn't do emotion well. But in his case it didn't mean that he didn't love her and really want to help.

Booyaka, as I said in my post,

you think your wife is unreasonable (and maybe she is), and that you really want your parents in your life. BUT, as with all rs, you can't change someone else's mind.

your wife is who she is. you are who you are. if you dearly want something that your wife doesn't want, and you can't come to an agreement about it even after years of trying to, then for god's sake, let your wife go, move on with your life and repair your rs with your parents.

imo the OP is going in circles worrying about who is the perp and who is the victim. it doesn't help and it's not a solveable problem. as with the vast majority of rs, it takes two to make a dynamic - even an abusive one.

the fact is, he's in a rs that doesn't work and he needs to pack up and go.

i am getting out of a very controlling rs at this very moment and am ACUTELY aware of how easy it is to play this game of "who's at fault?" when really, the facts are simple...

• DW wants something
• DH wants the opposite
• they can't agree
• so someone needs to pull the plug.

it's not easy and it hurts like hell but eventually one does have to nut up and say enough is enough.

Ok yes, I've re-read and I see what you mean.

The teenagers are in a crappy situation, either way.

You don't want to leave, so don't.

You want to see your parents, completely reasonably, so do. I would go for a weekend, personally, if your parents have space to put you up.

Your wife has reacted very strongly to any deceit - I see why you did this but it is not helpful. Act openly.

I would take your children, as if your wife reacts as she threatens to do, it may be some time before they can go again. If this reaction occurs, it's time for an SHL (shit hot lawyer in MN land). You might even be sensible to put financial paperwork in a safe place before you tell your wife you're going.

If you still love your wife, tell her so before you go. It doesn't sound like you do but relationships are mysterious.

You can't have everything, and you may indeed have a Titanic row or even the end of your marriage. But you can't live like this. I think this is one of those threads where you will look back in six months' time and be barely able to believe you used to be in this situation.

Fictional quotes can be resonant but I think John Le Carre (divorced in his time) would be the first to be horrified that anyone was actually attempting to live a marriage according only to something he wrote 36 years ago.

Annandale That is some of the best advice I've ever seen on here.

I agree, I can see no benefit from trying to work out who is right or who is wrong. This is a time to decide what sort of life you want for yourself, and accepting that relationships with your parents or your wife may be mutually exclusive.

I can'r help but think that there are massive fault lines in terms of trust and communication between the both of you.

OP, I think Annandale gives you wise advice.

Do you really want to live out your one precious life in a state of grim endurance and passive aggression?

If DW does not like your parents, fine. Her choice. She does not have to see them.

Go and see your parents as much as you like, for as long as they live. Tell your DW to go see some friends or get a massage or something while you are out. If she protests, smile, shrug, walk away.

I lived for years with a STBXH who yelled at me every time I spoke to my mother on the phone. Once I went to stay with her in Sydney for two weeks. He refused to speak to me when I returned. She died suddenly in 2012, and he showed me no compassion at all.

Man or woman, we need to live our lives as we see fit, in an ethical, decent way, and with no regrets. Your wife's chip on the shoulder is for her to deal with.

Do not knuckle under. Do not suffer in silence. Do what you know is right.

Yes OP, who gives a Flying Fart who is right and who is wrong? It won't effect who gets the Chippendale and who gets the MFI chipboard dresser. The whole thing is toxic. Admit that you have made mistakes and that your parents have too. Tell the DW that you think she has made mistakes and get out of the war zone. It's not a black and white issue. Shit like this rarely is.

shove the holly,

dont jump to conclusions

Common sense suggests she wouldn't be majorly peed off if their reaction had been 'Oh she's wonderful, I think you should marry her straight away'!!

that is indeed almost exactly what they said to me:

Within a year of our meeting I brought my first house, my parents contributed half the deposit as an investment. my wife P would stay over most weekends; when collecting furniture from my parent’s home (I’d gone alone with a van) my father offered me a spare single bed, I declined explaining that P & I would buy a double. My mother (a strict believer in no sex before marriage) suggested we should marry. I recounted this to P. She was not happy! how could I have shared such intimate detail with my parents?, what business was it of theirs to suggest we wed? With hindsight I can see that I should not have allowed a discussion to develop with my mother about the advisability of prompt marriage and been more circumspect in what I relayed to P, my excuse is that perhaps belatedly I was only just finding my feet as an independent adult – but that was over 25 years ago..)

Yes, you're right that you shouldn't have discussed that with your parents (and your mother shouldn't have commented either). But hey, we all make mistakes.

I have to say that your wife's going NC for decades over that seems like a bit of an over-reaction though. Are you sure that's the only bone of contention between them? It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... either she is completely mad, or there is more to this story.

Whatever the facts, though, I think the best advice here has been from those posters who have said "You are MISERABLE. Get out of there and grab a chance at happiness with someone else". Really, the rights and wrongs of it don't matter as much as both of you having a better life.

Your post is so interesting to me Match. I am in a similar situation but I am the sister. My SIL has refused to allow my DB or his dc to see my parents or myself for a number of years now. He has gone along with her for a quiet life - he told my Mum many years ago that she threatened him with never seeing his dc again unless he 'toed the line' so he does as he is told. When my Dad died he came to the funeral alone and behind her back (as far as she knew he was at work), the same at my Grans funeral a few years ago. This is the only contact we have had with him in 10 years.
The reasons why would also fill an 8000 word novel and its too boring to recount on here (and it would most probably out me)
I go from hating him for not having a backbone and standing up to her to feeling desperately sad for the life he has to lead.
She is manipulative and controlling and a bully and your wife sounds like her twin!

Your marriage sounds like something out of a horror story.

It doesn't really even matter who's done what at this stage, you have both endured 25 years of misery.

In your position, if you are sure you don't just want to leave, then I would just go ahead and see your parents and sister whenever you want. How is your wife going to know if you meet your sister for coffee in your lunch break or something? Best to arrange via phone call so no record of texts/email and tell sister not to contact you at all unless she phones your work landline so wife can't possibly get wind of it.

What exactly is she going to cite in the divorce petition - my husband had lunch with his sister, therefore he's evil?

And regarding your teenage kids, they will not be shipped around like little kids in custody arrangements, they will have a say in where they live, who they visit. What has happened to make you believe that your wife would be able to keep them away from you? Do you have a good relationship with them?

I can't see what you have to lose actually.

I think that's pretty bad advice bubble. When he goes to visit his family and hides it, his wife goes mad and seems to think it proves all her suspicions about OP and his family.

I think Annandale's advice about going and being open about it was much better advice. And if it did end the marriage, yes, the OP could reasonably cite being banned from seeing his family in a divorce petition.

I also think you're giving pretty bad advice about custody, I think that considering she's stopping the OP as a grown man, from seeing his family, there's no reason to think she would cooperate with access. A SHL sounds a much better idea for dealing with that.

It's impossible to know what's really going on here. Nothing much stands out to me - except confusion - and we are only getting your side.

Fwiw I have had the same cancer and there is no question at all in my mind that it came about bcs of severe emotional/psychological distress. No, I can't qualify that sure conviction. I doubt my consultants would agree with me on my conclusion, or even discuss it with me, but from what you've said she is in the field and I can see they would discuss it with her and could well agree that a severe shock and resulting intense distress has been shown to contribute to the onset of a disease like this.

I say nothing stands out but I do get from your posts that you have not agreed with your wife about her stance. If dp were indeed demeaning towards her then she is absolutely right to insist her/your children are never exposed to that, therefore them. You seen to have gone along with her but you haven't agreed. You say you feel 'brainwashed' but that may be bcs she packs a good argument, no doubt conveyed with force considering the high emotion of the situation, and you feel confused.

Your wrangle has for 25 years been over your parents, to whom you can not feel convinced they have harmed your wife. Have you researched toxic parents? I am not saying they are or aren't toxic but have you grasped , or at least fully researched, what your wife may be saying.

Ime of cancer I have been acutely aware of who is and who isn't onside. From what she's saying, she has never quite felt you are onside. Your secretly seeing your parents I think confirms you haven't understood what she has asserted all along. She would have seen your covert contact with them, her enemies, in which she expected your unequivocal support at all costs, as a significant betrayal.

I also feel I need to point out that toxicity doesn't dim with age. If they are toxic (I am not saying they are or arent) they will still be toxic now.

I agree that you should not deceive you wife. Either see your family openly or not at all .

You say that your parents invested in your first house . Do you mean that they actually took a share of the equity ? Or that they gave you some money for a deposit as a gift ?

Being demeaning or condescending is not toxic and no reason to be cut off from your son and grandchildren!!
My PIL are quite annoying. MIL is opinionated and quite arrogant and FIL is a bit loud but I wouldn't stop DP or the DC seeing them!!!