Can women be emotional abusers?

[Wiltedplants]

Just that really or does any 'acting out' stem from past trauma?

Have you ever been happy in this relationship?

Yes, very much so, but that was before a lot of unfortunate events.

Before the lies?

That and a lot of other things like children very soon and a few other things I can't disclose. Decisions that were made. Sorry to be so cryptic.
I harbour a lot of anger unfortunately.

It's unlikely you can go back to how things were before children you know?! It seems like a dead horse you are flogging. What's stopping you moving on? Is it just worried that this is the best you can get?

Yes.

I know two emotional abusers.

One is less so than before but I believe she will always be a possible abuser.

She is trying and has mellowed a lot but she will always need someone neutral to call her on it when it starts again, and I believe it will start again.

She and her DP are working through it, it stems from deep control issues.

The second was toxic in some respects to one child while giving the other everything.

She would say child 1 was the better child, nice, kinder, smarter...

Knowing both these now adults I would say she was completely wrong and seeing what she wanted and what suits her.

She has now decided she never said that about the child and that the child was never emotionally abused.

Anyone else who isn't an abuser would disagree.

Does your partner believe you are abusive?

Is that why it's suddenly become a real possibility for you?

there have been accusations of abuse from both sides however after reading a few posts realise it's very very poor behaviour from both sides. For example I am anxious as I don't want to be lied to so I will conjure up the worst case scenario of what's been going on during any given day and project it everywhere and accuse as though it's happened when it's not. Or will preempt another scenario where something has been done, quite a reasonable thing to do but it will be kept hidden as I may get upset because I'm imagining the worst case scenario within that action and I will get upset as though it's happened again as a way of being reassured it's not happening or not happening again.
It's not adult rational behaviour and I recognise that and I'm quite baffled as to why this has become a habit/pattern of behaviour. This is my worst crime.

My previous relationship was utterly abusive, threats of suicide, lies of suicide attempts, sexual coercion when I was trying to leave, violence and so on I'd never ever imagined people could do that and it's all surfacing decades later and I'm having to unfuck my head as it were as I had no idea what was actually happening at the time, I just thought that I'd upset this person deeply and had to try and 'rescue' them so I stayed as I didn't know what else to do until an incident occurred which involved the police having to be called that is.

So am I projecting past into present or is this the dynamic of two people who have a bit of 'baggage'. As there are other things not on my side which add to this nothing as dark as what I had to endure though.

Thank you for all the examples I've read tonight, it's good to get perspective on these things.

Have you had or considered counselling alone and as part of a couple?

I am interested in the bit you said earlier about the lies being about self preservation? What do you mean by that?

I think for you, you need to accept that sometimes decisions will be made with out you. Sometimes decisions need to be made there and then. In which case, if this person is truly a partner, you would accept they made the beats decision at the time.

For example dh was asked if dd wanted to compete for the first time in a sport she participates in. He tried calling me and I missed it. We had been away and it was closing day for entered. He decides to enter her. I wasn't happy as its a contact sport and thought she needed more training. But I also trust that he did the best thing he could at the time.

Dd performed above everyone's expectations, so my thought that she wasn't ready was wrong.

I know this is an odd example. But what I am saying is in a fairly normal relationship you should be able to trusts that your partner has made a decision and made the best one they can at that time.

It sounds like you are in a circle of your partner lying about something small, you make situations worse than they need to be, you get upset and start 'worst case' thinking, the partner then lies again to avoid this behaviour from you. And round you go?

You are both stuck in the cycle or poor behaviour and neither are happy.

And it's not got to a point that it's so bad and gone on or so long it doesn't really matter who started it.

Is this about right?

That's a fair analogy yes. There other issue is I'll expect he's doing all manner of under hand deviousness and unless he explicitly explains that he's not I'll behave as though he is until we have a row about it and he can convince me he's not. If for one second I'm insure that he's being honest I doesn't go well. It's at the point where he feels like I'm treating him like he's a lying philandering arsehole when he's doing nothing of the sort.

Huge decisions have been career decisions (after redundancy so this is a grey area), very large car purchases, to name too.

I think the crux of the matter and this thread has helped me see that is I have very little faith at the moment (and for a long time prior to his) as several quite catastrophic events weren't dealt with adequately at all. I've been left with a sense that there is no support and no idea that's said partner knows what to do during a crisis. I'm very much used to strong people taking charge when someone is unable. Being left to take charge oneself when one is the person going through a crisis even a life threatening one will change view points and I don't feel for a more positive one. There is denial that this is the case though as 'the best was done'. Am I allowed to think it just wasn't good enough?

It's disappointing and when someone can't step up several times over for whatever reason it's depressing.
I find conversation these days boring as all talk is around resolution or avoiding talk of any resolution. It's dull but then how to progress with unresolved simmering issues?

It sounds like you are unsuited.

Either due to baggage or just generally not compatible in a relationship, is unknown.

It is hard because from your latest post you feel they did not do enough and help.

They feel they gave their everything and did their best.

A third neutral person could say that either:

You expected too much, put too much on them giving little back so it's natural they feel resentful and defensive when you want more still.

or

They gave too little, expected you to just get on with things while they gave the bare minimal so it's natural for you to feel feel resentful and defensive.

I have been in relationships where my needs were more than secondary, it was unequal and I was the giver while they took.

Likewise ones where I was exhausted at dealing constantly with someone's problems, to the detriment of my own self and was accused of not giving enough.

In both cases we ended the relationship and are both in happier, more compatible and less toxic ones.

So you know you are treating your dp unfairly? Whether it's poor behaviour of abuse depends on how bad it is and how often. Also are you trying to manipulate a reaction?

Yes you are allowed to think they didn't do enough. They are allowed to think they did. You may both be right. They may have done as much as they could but for you, it wasn't enough.

An example would be that I recently had a cancer scare, dh couldn't come up the appointments due to work. We own our own business we could afford to loose the contract. He supported me as much as he could whilst keeping the business afloat. Whilst I would have liked him there, I could also see he was trying to do his best. I accepted it.

Others may feel that he should have been there regardless and didn't do enough

I hope I explained that well

Yes that is a very good example. To some degree yes there is maximum effort but directed to the wiring things (as far as I'm concerned) to my detriment even though in a sense some of the things attended to have to be done so really id say it was a matter of priority given to the wrong things t the wrong time whilst demanding I be understanding whilst I struggle with the issues that are in need of support.

I guess this is a little of my original question but it's very relevant. The lying is separate to what I've just written.

I'm very confused now. Sorry.

Ok maybe this helps, a decision is made even though I can predict a negative outcome based in a rational analysis however the decision is still made because it's thought to be the best option at the time for everyone involved (not the best option for me so I have to ignore my needs) then if I raise any issues I'm being difficult and preventing things from moving on even though I have to just go along with the difficulties the decision caused me whilst everyone else has benefitted or not been affected.

This is damaging to the relationship as far as I'm concerned and I feel negativity towards it all as a result. Please don't think this is some sort of self fulfilling prophecy in anyway, it's just the obvious outcome is generally the actual outcome. It's very frustrating for me however an issue is my solutions are always deemed unrealistic ie not the easiest option at the time.

This again isn't my original question but digging a little deeper always brings surprising results.

The accusations and unfair treatment are based in behaviour though, behaviour which has been oppressive and infuriating, so yes I'm angry and resentful and would really like to move on.

I want admissions of wrong doing and apologies not platitudes and gas lighting and denial.

of course they can!

Again (sorry I am not being very helpful) it depends on the decision and who it effects.

Sometimes decisions have to be made for the good of the majority. Sometimes we are the individual that misses out or looses.

Again it depends on who the majority is. So a decision is made for the good of your family (you, do and kids) but may not suit you.

The majority could be people who don't matter. So, sucking it up isn't fair.

I do think there is merit to wanting an admission of them being wrong. It does make you feel better.

However, again, it depends on how long ago these things were. You said there has been apologies. Why weren't these enough? And apology is only needed when someone has acted poorly, so there is an admission there.

I do hope I am helping not confusing you more.

Sorry there have been no apologies, just childish justification of poor behaviour that even though not openly acknowledged its obvious that anyone can see the justification is utter nonsense.

Yes all decisions effecting the family.

Apparently all the intentions are honourable. The road to hell and all that...

I think the underlying emotions here is anger that certain events which were predicted as an outcome have materialised. They were obvious and apparent to anyone.

Some were several years ago and still haven't been dealt with and I'm expected to carry on as usual even though I'm seething and sad at the same time.

Other behaviour I think is inherent and I hope that as people grow they mature and gain some sort of introspection. I sound scathing yes I'm sure I do.

I'm confused in that I can't exactly pinpoint the issue as if there is no more minimising and lying then all is week. If there is I can't say there is as I've no evidence jut past behaviour to go on. It's easier to just accuse and blame at the moment as there is less risk. It's a protection mechanism. I've been accused of making things up and portraying traits such as lying philandering bastard only interested in ducking everyone over. Then to say well if you really thought that you'd leave. So what to take from that, it's all me projecting and detracting from the real issues or there are fundamental characters flaws and I really should leave.

I tend to analyse situations a little

I think it's about perception and this person obviously doesn't feel they have done anything wrong. Whether it's because they believe the ends justified the means or whether they believe you are in the wrong no one can know. Just as no one can know if the apologies you want are deserved or if this other person was right, or even if it's a mix of the two.

It's something you have to talk about, perhaps with a counsellor so that these issues can be addressed from each point of view?

It may not help still because you may not get the outcome you want but rather then sit and seethe or expecting them to know or demanding and wanting apologies which may or may not be right to give or truthful...that's something I think you may only find there.

It sounds like your options are to continue on this toxic behaviour whether it be from you or them, or get some counselling and see if that helps, or accept this relationship has broken down and stop trying to repair it when neither of you are willing to compromise on your positions.

Fudgeloveryum

You've managed to sum it up quite neatly only your forgot to give me the magic instant fix :)

So counselling it the last bastion of hope.

How infuriating. I want to just rewind and not have to deal with the residual negativity from certain actions and rantings.

What you said about each party thinking they've done nothing is mostly interesting as this has been screeched on more than one occasion. I by default probably inflame the situation by retaliating with something downs the lines of yeah sure you've not, just like you don't lie about anything. It's particularly unhelpful on my part which is why I was asking my original question.

To play completely neutral:

On your partner's pov: You are right that it is unhelpful and does inflame the situation especially if they feel resentful and that they aren't lying.

On your pov: you are going to say things back if you feel ignored and minimised.

There is no magic instant fix I'm afraid, there rarely is with relationships. Counselling probably is the last bastion, If you want this relationship to continue?

You can't go back into the past and erase it but you can go forward, if you work together.You have to both want to work together and work at it though. You also have to be prepared because the counselling will probably bring up fault on both your sides and both of you will need to take that on board.

If your partner isn't willing to try and you aren't willing to listen to each other and understand each others points of view, even if you don't agree, then nothing will work.

I'm sorry because that probably isn't want you want to hear but I do believe it's the truth and that's something that needs to be focused on. Hopefully your partner is willing to try as well and work through this.

Please don't apologise the neutrality is very very helpful and having someone offer a POV from the otherside and from an outside perspective is very helpful to try and understand the situation from an objective point of view. Emotions have been incredibly high over the past few years which makes objectivity completely impossible.

You're right I feel completely side lines ignored and minimised and I do retaliate.

I've been trying to fix something either in the wrong way or something that's just beyond repair.

I'm not even sad anymore. Just disappointed in it all. It seems like a waste in many ways as there was such potential and then it all went horribly horribly wrong and now we are here.

I really don't know how to move forward which is unlike me as I don't as I've said want to end it but I don't know if I can move forward and I don't know if I can put anymore effort in for example the time and expense of counselling.

I've given all I have to give and feel I deserve better than this but is settling maybe better.

I feel if I don't try and make things work we are headed for all the cliches a situation of this nature brings such as affairs and boredom and midlife meltdowns.

I'm wallowing a little now but this is what I see unless some life is breathed back into this.

I don't know if everything I've said is compounded by the toddler years or if it's the inevitable relationship decline once things have run their course. It's hard to be sure.

I'm glad it helps. I know in my own relationship year ago that I needed someone to ask me if I was settling to have me actually consider if I was. Which I was.

I've been trying to fix something either in the wrong way or something that's just beyond repair.

At least you have been trying, that's really important. I'm not sure settling is ever a good idea, especially if you are miserable. You need a good quality in a relationship, although that's just my opinion.

You sound very down and down on yourself. Is it worth speaking to your GP about counselling for your alone first?

What does your partner want to do? Would they be amenable to counselling together? If they aren't then you don't have as many options but then sometimes that in itself is helpful at decision prompting.

I'd like some kind of psychotherapy (it would be great to talk about myself for an hour and have someone actually take an interest) I understand my behaviour quite well and have people I can discuss various complexities with so understanding what's happening is not the issue the issue is putting the anger aside and I don't want to. It's energising and I don't actually have to deal with how sad I really feel if I let it go. Ok I probably do need therapy.

Partner would like to carry on as normal as to face any sort of emotional crisis is an horrific idea issues are acknowledged but never discussed or resolved.

Isn't happy that I'm not happy/we're not happy but too stubborn pigheaded to admit to any apparent wrong doing and only acknowledge from partners perspective. It's fucking infuriating and my fuse is short these days.

We are either polar opposites or exactly the same. There is not middle ground. Ever. There is fundamentally a lot of love but to get to it seems impossible, like swimming through a flooding river with hazardous debris. Or a tsunami - with the risk of being overly dramatic.

Why can't you be angry if he's made bad decisions you voiced concern over and he ignored to your detriment? Perhaps you are being denied the right to feel how you should feel. Counselling is great in giving you clarity and space to accept how you feel is justified.

I wouldn't have couple counselling whilst he's in denial of what he's done/your feelings. Go and get yourself strong first.