A comment on British men

[zas1]

Not from me but my colleague. She is younger 30ish very pretty intelligent a bit brittle but sound enough. She is from the South of France. She complained vociferously about British men being far too reserved about their attraction to women & says she misses the attention she gets at home. Thought this was interesting as a thought. Presumably she is not talking about what we would call street harassment but something else.

has this thread been duplicated? I seem to have posted on a shorter version...!

Well no one wants street harassment but I don't suppose people want a culture where no one ever says anything vaguely attraction related. I've always been interested when I travel how many local women esteem the diffidence of British men. I think I would take that over the Paris style approach, & the Turkish one doesn't sound too appealing either.

In the UK it's probably simply reserved for certain times and places ie after dark, pub, club, work disco , drinks involved & etc

I would find stuff like that at work highly inappropriate and I really have never liked it when strangers have said stuff to me on the street even if it's "flattering".

All a product of our culture though aren't we!

Actually the french bloke who works in the next dept always comes across as pretty inappropriate and the men seem a bit jealous.

He is just one bloke mind, not saying every french male is pretty inappropriate!

This one is though.

I am in Paris, and I do not like the type of attention I get in public here as a woman.

Some examples:

• Walking out of the train station, it started pouring with rain. A man asked if he could get under my umbrella as we both walked into car park. I said of course and was polite and friendly. After two minutes walk and small talk, he asked for my number and would not leave me alone after I politely said no, but kept asking just changing the pretext he wanted it for, followed me all the way to my car.

• Waiting for drinks at a busy bar, got shoved into a guy next to me. Said sorry and made aa stupid joke. Cue him following me around for the rest of the evening even though I gave no further encouragement.

• A random man said hello as he passed me in the street. I said hello back without even thinking, he then followed me down the street and wouldn't stop trying to talk to me.

• Last weekend I went to a second hand car dealership and sold them my car. Chatted in normal friendly fashion with buyer guy while we completed all the admin. He knew I had a boyfriend as said BF came to pick me up. Didn't stop car dealership guy sending me two texts later on in the day telling me how adorable I was and how much he loved my accent.

I was the poster who linked to the article earlier in the thread, and I believe there is a lot of truth to it. In France, if you REALLY don't want a guy to pursue you, you have to completely ignore him and treat him utterly frostily and rudely. In my experience, as soon as you smile or are in the least civil or friendly, they see it as a come on.

I am talking about interactions in a public sphere here, though. In private circles, people behave very differently. There is big difference between public and private life in France.

I lived in France for a few years in my teens.
Found that they had much fewer manners than British men (would let door slam in your face, not bother to hold it open)
Quite forward and indiscreet. As a fairly introvert person myself, I'd find it too 'in your face' and insincere.

Maybe her perception of the attention she thinks she should receive from men is a bit OTT.
Not every man who sees a pretty woman has to start making passes at her.

I'm from South America and men are definitely more forward there too. Unless, it's the occasional flirty look or chat with a really cute one, I never really liked that.

I love British men's attitude towards women. It's sweet, respectful and totally polite. I'm married to a British man and if I weren't married to him, I would be married to another British man.

When it comes to treating women, there are the best I've seen by far.

When it comes to treating women, there are the best I've seen by far.

Good lord. I disagree completely - hence me swearing off British men and emigrating! Then again I've seen plenty of bad attitude here (northern EU country) as well since. I suspect my DP is just rather special.

I love this thread. riverboat when you say there are big differences between private and public life what do you mean?

I hate any form of sexual forwardness by complete strangers and think it's bizarre to want it as some kind of self-validation.

From the original post, she's not actually talking about relationships, she just wants a constant buzz of attention which she has no intention of reciprocating. How vile.

Having said that, I went to Italy for 3 months when I was much younger and was terrified by the idea of attention on the street. However, I'm quite plain and at that time dressed mostly in double stonewash denim and lace up boots (it was the mid 80s). I got almost no attention at all and was fine with that. Then I spent a day with a very pretty blonde girl and it was like being on stage all of a sudden - men literally sprinted down the street to press their attentions on to her, she could barely finish a sentence. It was loathsome. It made me happy to leave and return to my quiet compatriots where the value of making eye contact in a pub for longer than 1.5 seconds (= I fancy you, let's spend some time in close proximity and fail to talk about what we would like to do next) is properly understood.

riverboat when you say there are big differences between private and public life what do you mean?

The most obvious thing is the way that politicians and public figures are much less scrutinised for behaviour in their private lives, because it is seen as totally irrelevant to their ability to perform their public/political role. Eg when current president Francois Hollande was revealed as having an affair with an actress a couple of years ago, the overwhelming response was "meh, so?" and everyone just continued as they were. Literally no one I talked to about it cared, there was no attempt to remove him from power, everything just carried on. If this had happened in the UK or the US it would have been a completely different story.

In terms of daily life for someone like me, I feel that the public sphere public - the street, in shops, in offices/restaurants, on public transport - is like a battlefield. The tendency is for people to act rudely, selfishly, aggressively. You have to be prepared to be the same to get treated with respect and get what you want. The same agressive, selfish people, when you encounter them in private, are likely to be lovely and friendly as anything!

Finally, there's more of a delineation between work and private life here. It's less common to socialise with colleagues than in the the UK - though I think this is changing actually, and it does depend on the company.

From my limited experience,'flirting' is more normal in other countries than in the UK. Total innocent flirting happens constantly with friends/colleagues/almost anybody of the opposite sex. This is not acceptable in the UK. There are probably many reasons for it, including the diversity of cultures in the country. You never know when it is or not appropriate to do certain things so you don't unless you know the other person very well (or you are in an environment where rules are meant to be more relaxed, such as a pub)

In my opinion, you only 'flirt' here if something is going on or you want something to happen. This is not the case at all in countries such as Spain or Latin American countries which I know very well. They are becoming more and more influenced by American and British culture so it is changing but still, you would make many sexual jokes or hug your colleagues quite often without thinking twice.

I hate any form of sexual forwardness by complete strangers and think it's bizarre to want it as some kind of self-validation

This ^^ definitely.

I much prefer subtle flirting that you can both build on together, than some of the forward and quite frankly intimidating behaviour I've witnessed in France, Turkey and from many Eastern Europeans here in London.

I am male early 40s. I do not generally speak to or make comments to anyone I don't know. I think most of my male friends are way way too shy to do so either. I have known foreign females to complain about your colleagues issue too.I don't know what to say when they say this stuff so I usually make some kind of apology and shuffle away. I wouldn't want to be like the men cited though, for example in Paris. It doesn't sound a proper way to interact.

my dp is french and he thinks that british men seem to be very undemonstrative with their partners, like theyre actually afraid to show that theyre into them

"intimidating behaviour I've witnessed in France, Turkey..."

There is a bizarre and unfortunate impression in Turkey that tourist women are 'easy' and that is why visibly foreign women get a lot of unwanted attention (especially in tourist resorts, getting worse as you go East). That is not at all how Turkish women are treated. You go out in a night club in Istanbul, and men might sometimes come and talk to you, but they will not pester you and they definitely will not grab or pull you.

In contrast, men in the South of France pester and physically grab/pull you in night clubs. Men's entitlement and lack of respect for women is astounding.

Also, in Turkey strangers will come to your help and beat away the moron pestering you. Here in the South of France, you can get physically attacked on the street and nobody will help.

I have lived in Istanbul before South of France - took taxis by myself at 4 AM, walked down the street in some dodgy neighbourhoods after midnight, etc. Never felt as unsafe as I do here in the South of France.

The flirting thing is interesting cama. There's a presumption of heterosexuality implicit isn't there, which again is something that probably has cultural differences than the UK. Not saying we're always amazing and super or anything, but I do think that an understanding that people might not necessarily be interested due to orientation has always been nearer to the surface than maybe some more "macho" cultures like I imagine parts of South America to be? May be talking out my arse there

On the flirting thing, as well, there was an interesting thread a while back about flirting and, oh yes it was babies being described as "flirting". The gist was (and I agree with it) that British people are much more likely to only flirt if there is actual sexual interest. Some people (who are recognised as flirts!) do it more widely but generally, again culturally, we tend to do flirting only with intent or at least genuine desire. The expression of sexual attraction isn't used so much as standard currency in social intercourse IYSWIM.

Exceptions are noticeable - like some men I've met at work who are quite high up and seem to take it as read that young women should come over all coy at them as a matter of respect / their due, and then get the right hump if you don't.

This thread is really interesting

On the presumption of sexuality thing I think I mean men, actually, maybe not being straight.

I think that the attitudes towards, and understanding about, lesbians has always been a bit different.

Probably due to, I don't know, men being people and allowed to have variance while historically women's roles were more restricted.

I loved the game of flirtation in the UK before I was married - the longer eye contact, half smile, look away. The slightly awkward offering of a drink, the light brush of a hand - was it on purpose? (Of course it was).

Even the slightly drunken nature of a lot of it (!) never felt that I couldn't back out at any time. I know some British men are hideous predators but I have never been treated with anything other than polite keenness.

When I went to Italy and it was all "ciao bella" and leering looks and bottom pinches I just thought "who the fuck goes for this?"

I've never noticed this hand brushing thing.
I read a lot of fanfic () and they are all hand brushing all over the shop.

Maybe I was oblivious?
Maybe no-one did it

But then, after I read the fanfic, I started to notice hand brushing at work when passing drinks etc. But that's just an accident isn't it.

How does a flirty hand brush go?

(Genuinely fascinated)

I suppose in my neck of the woods it was more just get slaughtered and leap into bed so maybe we skipped the hand brushing stages.

Oh I HATE having my arse pinched.

It really hurts and bruises.

Mind you, the pat / slide / feel is much more violatey somehow, makes me feel really horrible and upset.

So a hand brush would be something like if you're on a bar stool and you lean forward a bit and use a light hand to "steady" yourself.

Or from the man, he might be talking about something, gesture and touch your hand at the same time.

I can't believe you've never had it happen! I reckon I was being politely hand brushed all the time. This was the late 1990s though, maybe things have progressed since those innocent times.

I think historically, in Britain, courting was a very polite and tentative business. Perhaps we still have that old fashioned, polite way of courting still with is

Oh I see not touching hand to hand but a light touch somewhere else eg shoulder or waist or wherever yes that happens a lot or other body bits feet or sitting next to each other touching hips or whatever

But no re-reading it is hand to hand! I honestly never noticed that. I suspect it might have been too subtle for me!

Bending over "helping" playing pool as always a good one