Reply to MIL - please help!

[josephwrightofderby]

PIL are very passive-aggressive. DH and I both find them difficult - I've posted before about how DH will actually be made physically unwell by them during a visit. Part of the problem is that they are engulfing and do not allow any room for difference - they just bulldoze both of us and we have to be stand-up rude to get them to listen. We end up exhausted and upset as a result. We therefore try to limit visits to a long weekend 3-4 times a year.

I just got an email from MIL that says 'I wondered if you have any ideas what DH might like for his birthday, as we could bring it to BIL's house when we see you there next week. Sorry to ask, but as we don't see you very frequently now, I'm sure we are out of touch when it comes to presents.'

We have actually seen them more this year than in any previous year, and (as the email states) we will see them at BIL's house next week. But we couldn't make a couple of dates for a full weeken in October - because DH is madly busy with work, something they refuse to understand - and they were inflexible about other times.

I realise that this looks like nothing on the face of it, but we are trying very hard to be more assertive, but it does not come easy for us. Just posting for advice about how to respond.

I wouldn't let her rile me via email. I'd just answer the question or send her a link to Amazon and say "see you next weekend". My MIL doesn't sound as bad as yours, but sometimes it really pays to pick your battles and be brief

So I sent a brief, assertive email back basically telling her how busy DH is, and re-stating that we simply can't do those dates.

Got one straight back that says "I can believe trying to get DH to slow down could be impossible, but I note that you also seem to go out at weekends, so that must be good for you both".

DH actually works at least a day at the weekend. It's just I do drag him away from the computer for a bit to get him to go outside!

I remember your previous thread...

Ignore the comment, send a link to something you know he wants or say "Amazon/whatever shop he likes vouchers are always welcome."

Stand firm, expect more tantrums, rehearse with dh what (if any) your responses to passive aggressive specific whines will be. Literally - draw up a list of phrases you think they'll trot out, and what you will respond, or if you'll ignore/laugh.

I find treating people like this like a toddler works well. Relentlessly cheery brushing off of their whining and chivvying them along - "out of touch ?! oh you are silly, mil! We've seen you more last year than the year before! All right for you retired folks, eh, all the time in the world...! Now then, nice cup of tea anyone?"

Boundaries, refusal to engage with any passive aggressive shit and most crucially stand together

What she wants is for you to react the way you have done, feeling guilty and stressed about the implication that you are a shit son and DIL.

Therefore you must give no hint of any kind of upset. Fortunately this is a fairly straightforward question.

Personally I'd have to stir the pot a bit and say 'Don't apologise for asking [NB she isn't actually sorry at all, what she meant was you should be sorry she has to ask]! DH much prefers to be asked what he wants [NB you're not meant to ask him, you're meant to tell them so they can 'surprise' DH but who cares]. I've checked with him and he would like [x]' (Here you could take it way too far and ask for a copy of Toxic Parents - don't do this - just chortle imagining you might).

Finish off with a cheery 'looking forward to seeing you soon!' The end. No apology for the length of the visit, just a Monica-in-Friends style 'I'm breezy' to finish off.

Incidentally I get on very well with my parents and I don't see them as much as 3 or 4 long weekends a year and never more than a day at a time as we are all too busy. Given visiting them makes him physically ill, I would start cutting back even further.

So

-avoid unnecessary battles
-rehearse responses, set boundaries
-stand firm but keep it light-hearted
-keep it brief

gulp

I can do this. I can do this!

gulp

You really don't need to respond to her PA bullshit by trying to justify yourself. As jbee said above, best in such cases to only reply to the only actual question buried in that mound of passive-aggression: "DH would like an X for his birthday." You trying to defend yourself by talking about DH's work schedule only fueled her fire, you see: she got a chance to attack you even more.

It's good to be assertive. When they're actually trying to impose something you don't want, be assertive.

But when they're just sneaking in cheap shots, ignore it, and deal only with what's worth dealing with (your husband's present suggestion, in this case).

Hahahahahahahaha to asking for Toxic Parents.

I genuinely just snorted my tea everywhere in amusement.

Don't engage!

Don't JADE (justify, defend, apologise, or explain) - this is one thing I think we women do so much, and it trips us up. It puts us on the back foot. It's like at work when you take on more stuff because you don't want to say no, or refuse but start to justify it. No is a complete sentence.

It's none of their business what you do at weekends, etc. You told them you couldn't make those dates, they can suck it up and deal with it.

See, that's exactly the problem. You nailed it. I respond to these cheap shots. I feel bad, so I rise to it and feel a need to justify things, to set things straight and 'mend' the situation.

They are the exact opposite: they willfully ignore all hints that don't chime with their plans.

My whole style is wrong, isn't it?

Hi joseph, I remember your previous email. They are so incredibly demanding!

Don't rise to it. Just reply with something like 'I think he would like X or Y. See you next weekend'. Just ignore the guilt tripping stuff. Keep it cheerful and breezy.

3-4 times a year is loads by the way. DP and I only see our parents 1-2 times a year (by choice). Just remember that even 3-4 times a week would not be enough for these people.

Re the second email, be a broken record. We cannot do those dates. Those dates do not work for us. We cannot do those dates. As I said last time, we cannot do those dates. You do not owe them an explanation of how you spend your free time.

You are trying to be the 'good guys'
You will NEVER win with these people.
Don't engage when it's unnecessary.
You didn't need to re-explain everything.
A simple link and 'see you next week' would have been just fine.
They can't then come back with a response like they did.

You are being way too nice.
Stop it and you'll feel so much better.
'Sorry no weekend in October will work for us. We will let you know when we might be free in November'
Do NOT over engage!

That should say your previous message, not email

Yeah, your style has been wrong, but now you've got the mumsnet massive behind you. :)

You can't mend their behaviour, they will not magically morph into lovely people. All you can do is protect yourselves by putting down firm boundaries.

It'll probably take a few goes to get it perfect, but if you stand together and stick to the plan, you'll have those boundaries down.

I would not at all respond; infact I would actively seek to block her e-mail address from your inbox. Do not further engage in her PA games; they can only engage you if you tug on the rope they put out for you.

Unfortunately when dealing with people like his parents who are engulfing, the usual rules of familial relations go out the window. You both cannot afford to give an inch and no is a complete sentence. Also I would further raise your boundaries with regards to them too.

Such people cannot be at all reasoned with; it may well be that your current level of contact will again have to be further lowered.

It also sounds like your DH is very much still in a fear, obligation and guilt state with regards to his parents.

If you have not as yet read Toxic Inlaws written by Susan Forward I would suggest you do so.

Yes id do the sorry cant make it! no excuse no reason, just simple. The less they know the less room there is to negotiate... so if you said ... cant afford it ... they could say we`ll pay!! So no reason given ... try it, its empowering!

Everything hellsbells said. You are being way too nice. That's not a criticism - I've been there and done that myself, the only problem is that it gets you precisely nowhere. If you're a nice cheerful sort of person who wants people to get along, it's very difficult to change that. You can do it though.

Keep it light, breezy, cheerful, tell them nothing. Dont justify, dont explain - all you're doing is handing them loads of ammunition to throw at you. Tell them nothing, then they have got nothing to pick holes in. It feels scary at first but gets so much easier with practice and life gets a lot simpler. Doing it over email is way easier than over the phone or face to face so practice there first.

JADE... that is a good acronym to remember. You are wise, you Mumsnetters. I have learnt so much from these threads. (I got the whole 'engulfing' concept from lotta last time and so many things just clicked into place when I understood it).

I think I just... panic. Or something. And this need to do the JADE dance becomes almost overwhelming. Must.... resist.

I was quite close to GFIL (MIL's father), and they only visited him 1-2 times a year for much shorter visits until he was really quite elderly when they moved him in around the corner and made him miserable with their domineering!!

It may well be that any boundaries you care to further set them will be completely ignored. If these people are for instance engulfing narcissists they really see their son purely as an extension of their own selves.

It may well be the case as well that you will need to be ultimately no contact with them.

Atilla - since the last thread, I have read Toxic Parents but not Toxic Inlaws. Should I read both? The Parents book did help.

Are we sisters-in-law? (Don't worry, we can't be, my MIL doesn't use email but if she did, she'd send ones just like that!)

Do not engage.

I would reply something along the lines of "Thanks for asking - he'd love X. see you at BILs!"

I agree, just do not react to their digs. I hope you haven't responded to the 'you also seem to go out at weekends' nonsense?

Agree, your mistake was to respond to the 'busy' dig. Next time (and there will be a next time) she sends you a message or asks you a question that is reasonable, but uses it as an excuse to get a 'dig' in at you/DH, then just respond to the question, ignoring the thinly vailed insult and act like you haven't noticed she was being rude.

at sisters-in-law! It's good to know that there are others out there, and to hear how you cope and what works.

I realise this is going to sound weird and strange, but since we started seeing each other DH and I have noticed how similar we are in a lot of things. I am starting to realise that one of the major similarities that we've never really discussed is the fact that we are both the children of very domineering parents. We've always both known it, but we've never thought of it as something that might have influenced our relationship. But how could it not? I don't know if you can really describe that as a 'bond' but I wonder if it's part of the reason why we seemed to 'get' each other at quite an early stage.

Gosh, this makes us sound a bit of a tragic and pathetic pair, doesn't it??

Dear MIL,

You know you're quite right about how hard it it to get DH to slow down. Your message has made me realise that I need to take charge a bit so I've booked us a few days away next week to help him relax a bit.

Sorry we won't see you at BIL's. I hope you have a lovely time.

joseph xx

It may well do so and I would try and give your DH a copy of "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.