Reply to MIL - please help!

[josephwrightofderby]

PIL are very passive-aggressive. DH and I both find them difficult - I've posted before about how DH will actually be made physically unwell by them during a visit. Part of the problem is that they are engulfing and do not allow any room for difference - they just bulldoze both of us and we have to be stand-up rude to get them to listen. We end up exhausted and upset as a result. We therefore try to limit visits to a long weekend 3-4 times a year.

I just got an email from MIL that says 'I wondered if you have any ideas what DH might like for his birthday, as we could bring it to BIL's house when we see you there next week. Sorry to ask, but as we don't see you very frequently now, I'm sure we are out of touch when it comes to presents.'

We have actually seen them more this year than in any previous year, and (as the email states) we will see them at BIL's house next week. But we couldn't make a couple of dates for a full weeken in October - because DH is madly busy with work, something they refuse to understand - and they were inflexible about other times.

I realise that this looks like nothing on the face of it, but we are trying very hard to be more assertive, but it does not come easy for us. Just posting for advice about how to respond.

oh and to the last message, I would respond something none-commital that sort of reads like you misunderstood what she was saying, like:

"Yes, you have a very hard working son! See you next week." or just don't respond at all.

I will not respond to the weekend busyness nonsense. I will not!

ties fingers behind back

I have this... urge to do it, though. This idea that maybe, if only she understood the situation she would be reasonable. Almost part of me blames DH for not having explained it clearly enough to 'get through', as if we are somehow treating her unfairly by not justifying it. But she's not going to, is she? Because the essence of domineering behaviour is that someone is prepared to do something quite, quite unreasonable. I learned that from the Forward book.

God I wish you could ask them for a copy of Children of the Self Absorbed for his birthday, that truly would be comedy gold. When they query it, you respond 'oh I thought you'd be too self-absorbed to notice, ha ha'.

Some of this communication should be between your DH and his parents - at the moment you are setting this up to all be your fault for keeping him away from them. Where it's being done by email you could be replying from his account rather than your own (with his knowledge obviously). I understand your desire to minimise his distress but ultimately you can't take this problem away from him.

When you're a reasonable person, it really does your head in having to deal with someone who is utterly unreasonable. You need to stand firm though OP and you need to be on your husband's side. Nothing will ever 'get through' to them, nothing will ever be enough. There is no magic solution that will make them see sense. Believe me, I know how hard this is to accept. You need to put yourself and your husband first, and think about what you two want, not what your PILs want. And keep reminding yourself that you're an adult and so is he. That helps me when I'm wavering.

Reading these threads made me smile to myself. You see, It could have been me writing them about my MIL many years ago. We were so busy and I know they wanted to see their only son and only grandchild more. I was so harsh. Sadly she is dead and so I have no opportunity to make amends. Now I am the MIL, and no doubt my DIL could write similar things about me...and guess what guys, if you have sons, your future DIL will be writing similar things about you one day. As a MIL you are damned, you can't do right for doing wrong. It goes with the territory. But what goes around comes around. Remember you both love the same people. Your husband and your grandchildren. If a mother is not seeing much of her beloved son, guess whose door she lays the blame at? Yep, you got it!!
Actually I now feel rather ashamed at my treatment of my MIL who had very little in her life and although she did not always get it right she tried her very best. So come on, let's cut the poor old bids a bit of slack and hope that your future DILs will do the same for you! Lol!!

Yup. My MIL is fabulous but my poor DM (well before the dementia took over) was full of the PA/narcissistic chat and I spent years miserable before DH took me to one side and said 'Trooperslane, you know it's not NORMAL to come off the phone in floods of tears day/time you speak to your DM?'.

It's really hard, but the only thing you can do is control your response, not her behaviour which, let's face it - won't change.

Disengage. Don't fall into the trap of - I'm doing the right thing so she needs to too. She won't - I'm having to re teach myself this with a total PITA boss at the moment and TBH I appreciate you posting to make me give myself a kick up the arse!

I don't think you've read the thread, marzipan123. OP's DH is made physically unwell by the bullying of his parents when he sees them. They are already being guilted into visiting far more than some of us (me included) who actually like our parents see them.

OP is trying to set boundaries with two unreasonable people (who may not even be old enough to qualify as 'old bids'). Not cut them out of her life, just create a more equal relationship.

Copy your dh in on emails to your MIL. (Is what I do.) Helps with those talks behind your back.

marzipan123, there is a huge difference between a MIL who wants to see more of her son, and a MIL who is laying guilt trip after guilt trip on her son and his partner. A MIL (and FIL) whose behaviour causes their son to be physically sick with anxiety after their visits.

I'm sorry that you feel sad about your MIL and wish you could make amends, but it doesn't sound like the same situation at all. And its not at all true that you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Plenty of posters on here talk about how fantastic their MILs are and what a good relationship they have with them.

joseph

Re your comments:-

"I will not respond to the weekend busyness nonsense. I will not!

Good!. Do not engage in any communication with them at all

Re this:-
"I have this... urge to do it, though. This idea that maybe, if only she understood the situation she would be reasonable. Almost part of me blames DH for not having explained it clearly enough to 'get through', as if we are somehow treating her unfairly by not justifying it. But she's not going to, is she? Because the essence of domineering behaviour is that someone is prepared to do something quite, quite unreasonable. I learned that from the Forward book".

You probably have the urge to do that because you perhaps come from a more emotionally healthy family of origin where this type of dysfunction is thankfully known. She does not want to understand and is incapable of doing so; the only way acceptable to her is hers alone.

It is neither your fault or your DHs that they are like this; their own families did that lot of damage to them (their own childhoods were likely to have been emotionally abusive in nature too).

They are not capable of thinking differently; they really see their son as an extension of their own selves. The essence of domineering behaviour is that someone is prepared to do something quite unreasonable. There is really NO reasoning at all with such people like his parents, nothing will ever be good enough for them. Unfortunately your DH is very much a product of his dysfunctional upbringing; any inertia on his part hurts him as well as you. He is very much still in a FOG state with regards to them as well.

My DH and I both have domineering mothers - and yes, it does help us 'get' each other's weird behavior. I'm the one who get physically ill over seeing my parents - it's really horrible. I do hope you manage to stay assertive!

Oh honestly, let the guilt trips about MILs being dead soon lie.

My MIL's ok, except for the fact she treats DH like absolute shit. She tells complete strangers in pubs what a pain in the arse he has been for her since birth, while being Mrs. Cute and Sociable with and about everyone else. She is incredibly lucky to have contact with him at all. Our perspective is not suddenly going to change when she dies. And I will not compare myself to her when DS is grown up because I do not and will not ever treat DS like absolute shit.

There's no way you can explain it so she'll understand. If she doesn't get "your son has to work on some weekends, he's not avoiding you, he's at work." then there's no way you can rephrase it so she'll 'get it'.

Basically, she thinks one of two things: 1) you/DH are lying, he's not busy at work, he's just chosing not to see her because his evil wife doesn't want him to. Now, nothing you could say about how busy he is at work and how hard working will make her stop thinking you are making it up.

or 2) she accepts he is at work, but thinks seeing her should be prioritised over his job, even if it means risking being fired, being demoted, not being able to afford to keep a roof over the heads of his DCs, the priority should be her happiness. Telling her that he's busy at work might mean she'll accept that he is busy at work, but that won't change her view that the shouldn't be too busy to see her. Heck, if he was a good son, he'd get a different job, one when he'd be free when his mother wanted him, right?

There's no way you can reword it, so don't try.

My MIL died too, but she was nice.

I am a MIL, but if DIL were to "write similar things about me" she would be lying (not that she would). I might like to see the DGC more often; however I don't lay guilt trips on them over it. They have a family life of their own, work, a household to run, friendships to maintain, and other relatives to see. I trust them to invite me round as often as is decent and practicable, which they do. DIL may or may not have an unflattering private opinion of me - which she's far too well-bred to express if so - but she'll never be able to say in fairness that I stomp on them with great naily boots like the OP's in-laws. I may have given birth to DS but I don't own him.

Basically, if you're not "that sort" of woman you won't turn into "that sort" of MIL.

The PILS in discussion here do sound as if they are not the most balanced and reasonable of PILS. That being said, I agree with a previous poster, they won't change, you have to change the way you react to them. It is not easy changing the status quo. If visiting parents makes someone physically ill it is clearly a dysfunctional situation. Uber controlling parents have to be stood up to. Although when a previously compliant adult stands up to the controller, all hell breaks out. But if it is a really unbearable situation it has to be done and you have to deal with the aftermath. Probably be cut out of the will! Lol,

Don't engage the crazy.

And certainly don't apologise.

Not all MIL are created equal - some a lovely - not all MIL are damned - but some are bat shit crazy

My philosophy - never complain never explain - very similar to the advice here "don't engage" - naught will come of it - please resist the urge to respond to PA comments - they only escalate

Love the book suggestions

Tremendous advice here, thank you all.

"she accepts he is at work, but thinks seeing her should be prioritised over his job, even if it means risking being fired, being demoted, not being able to afford to keep a roof over the heads of his DCs, the priority should be her happiness. Telling her that he's busy at work might mean she'll accept that he is busy at work, but that won't change her view that the shouldn't be too busy to see her. Heck, if he was a good son, he'd get a different job, one when he'd be free when his mother wanted him, right?"

Dinosaurs - this is spot on. Seeing it written there in black and white helps me to realise that it IS unreasonable. DH is about to be promoted to a very senior role, one that he has wanted his whole life, and it will clearly give him a different status. He thinks this might 'sort the problem'. I'm with you - I don't think it will.

They often say things like 'No-one loves you like family, family are the most important thing, we want to see you'. Which, on the face of it, is lovely. But when we do meet with them, that is exactly what they DON'T do - they DON'T 'see' us. They don't listen, they don't hear what we are saying, they don't even ask if we are OK (there is absolutely no talk of emotions, ever). Instead, they bully us to make us 'fit' into their template of what they want to do, and who they want us to be. 'We' don't actually figure at all, not as independent adults, anyway. We could be smiling robots touring three National Trust properties a day with them and they would be just as happy. (I bloody hate stately homes).They don't even seem aware of us as people with basic needs, e.g. to sleep. Last visit, DH was particularly tired, and I made a point of mentioning this. They still managed to wake us at 2am (FIL knocking on our bedroom door to ask if the front door was locked) and again at 5am (MIL talking at the top of her voice to the cat right outside the bedroom door).

DH is absolutely mired in the FOG. The first thing everyone says about him is 'He's a lovely guy' - because he'll bend over backwards to help people. To him, they are 'loving' parents and he is a 'bad' son for not doing exactly what they ask at all times. Yet they have damaged him so much. For years and years and years he thought he was incapable of having a relationship, that he was rubbish, uncaring and bad at building bonds with others. Even though we are married, I know a part of him still believes that because whenever anyone asks him for something - however unreasonable - he feels miserable if he can't deliver.

He and his brother both believe that PIL 'mean well' and are 'lovely really'. I would never stand in the way of their relationship by asking to go NC or anything. But I don't agree - I think they are selfish to the core and that they don't 'love' their children in a healthy way. I would never dream of asking DH to go no contact with them (I don't believe he could actually), but their behaviour is not normal!!

I think you have to treat it the way you treat farts.

Basically, every time she makes a snidey comment, imagine it as a fart. Be embarrassed for her if you must, but don't acknowledge it openly.

At the moment you're acting like you have to answer to her & you don't. The way she's acting is really out of order but you're never going to change her. You can choose if you allow it to upset you or not but this takes loads of practice.

So if it was me, in the short term while you're deciding if you want her in your life, just imagine her as an old lady with a really bad wind problem

Josephwrightodderby

The one thing that came to mind reading your last post was I hope you only talk like this to us sympathetic folk on this board, and not to DH. Because poor guy will certainly be stressed if he feels piggy in the middle between his erring parents and his lovely wife. That is a terrible dilemma I have seen several times and it never ends well. It actually pushes his stress up several notches. Use us when you need a good rant!

You're taking too much of a role in this drama - I think the waking him up thing was to sabotage you, because you mentioned that he was tired. They wanted to show they had more power over him than you do.

You're right, however - he's kidding himself if he thinks there will be any let-up in the pressure just because he gets a high prestige job. They will lap it up and make it all about them at first, then revert to reproaches, which will be even more aimed at you because you are the 'trailing spouse' of their high achieving son.

You really need to make the email contact be with him (even if you're actually typing the emails). If he's tired, he needs to tell them. But I really would be trying to cut out overnight stays.

Actually tribpot that is spot on. Josephwrighttoderby needs to let her husband do all communication with his parents. She is taking too much of a role, and, may I say allowing the PIL to press her buttons big time. As long as she allows them to press her buttons, they are winning. And I have to say I fear DH is piggy in the middle and that is a dreadful place to be. At the end of the day they are his parents and blood is...........et al.

DH and I talked about this very briefly at breakfast, and agreed that all future emails should go to/come from him and that I should just ignore anything further.

The thought that they woke him up to sabotage me hadn't occurred to me. I think they are genuinely that selfish, though, that they wouldn't think 'Oh, it's 5am, perhaps I should be quiet'. BIL has the same issues of them putting the radio on in the middle of the night really loudly and waking the house, and has had to have words on this subject. They do live very much in their own world, and in that world there are no other people with conflicting interests, needs or priorities.

I probably do put DH 'in the middle' too much and you are right that I need to stop doing that. At the same time, he would never deal with this if I didn't make it clear that the behaviour is upsetting/difficult. My concern is to speak about it in a way that allows us to understand it (via books like those Atilla recommended), build a united front, and to plan in advance what we will do/say when boundaries are crossed. I don't see how we can do that without some acknowledgement that their behaviour is unusual, and that does mean raising these issues in a non-ranty way. As I think I mentioned in my last thread, he has already had quite a lot of counselling about the violent/bullying behaviour of his father, which did help. I am thinking about couples counselling to give us a space where we can plan our reactions to them. What do you think?

Unfortunately, short visits (which would be ideal) are out of the question due to the distance between our house and theirs - 5 hours drive.

So you (actually DH) offer to meet half way. If they refuse - well, you are available less frequently.

It sounds like you and DH are not on the same page about how difficult his parents are. I thought at the start of the thread you had planned how best to deal with them together, now I think maybe it's only you who've done the reading? That these are your strategies?

I can see how some joint counselling would be beneficial but I think you need to be prepared for that counselling to reveal that your DH does not agree with the way you want to handle his parents. Being able to discuss that difference of opinion calmly will be more productive. Remember he's been dominated his whole life, he must find it very difficult to stand up and say 'this is what I want', either to you or to them?

We do meet half way - but again, it is too far for just a day (2.5 hours each way). It always has to be a longer visit and they are very, very resistant to anything shorter than a weekend too - so it is a HUGE deal. One thing we are trying to do is 'piggyback' on their visits to BIL who is 1.5 hours away, in addition to the 3-4 times a year we spend a weekend with them, which will allow shorter but more frequent visits in between. BIL and his partner will also come to us during their visits to us.

We do agree that their behaviour is difficult. We absolutely agree on this 100%. What we don't have is any practical strategies for managing it - every time, it catches us unawares because we haven't prepared and then they spring something on us and we are uncertain and hesitate and that is fatal. Here is the crucial bit: a huge part of my reason for hesitating is that I don't want to upset DH or put him in a tug-of-war position where he feels miserable. My last thread was kind of about developing these more, about how we go about setting stronger boundaries in a way that is firm, fair and not unpleasant and aggressive. I have come to realise from that thread that these need to be agreed in advance because we both lack practice at doing it on the hoof. We are not good at being assertive, either of us.

For example: they will shift the boundaries of what we agree to do. So we will agree to visit one stately home, and they will insist that we all go in their car, and then they will not allow us to go home, but will ask us if we want to see another and will not take no for an answer, even if it is expressed quite strongly (for me, that is). So we are trapped. And this has been a big problem because I have been quite ill and therefore liable to get extremely tired so that second visit has sometimes left me on the verge of exhaustion, even in tears with pain!! I would like to push back on this more strongly, e.g. by insisting that we take separate cars and saying 'Well you can still see it if you want to', but I need to know that it isn't going to send DH into a tailspin of anxiety for me to do so - hence the need to have these agreements in advance.