Unsure what I want or what to do

[Enman]

Hello everyone, I am male in mid 30s, have been with my DW for 14 years and married for 10, we have 2 DC (5 and 7 years). To most people we appear a happy successful family with two good jobs and everything we want.

Our relationship was good for many years, but over the last 4 years we have had a series of setbacks: death of two close family members on the wife's side, postnatal depression, DW told me (~18 months ago) she had developed feelings for another man she worked with and tried to kiss him once - but has since lost these feelings, our sex life has gone from bad to virtually non-existant. For the last 3 years DW has often been verbally abusive, usually after drinking too much, occasionally in front of the children, which has been very hurtful to me. We have been in couple's counselling (relate) weekly since April, through which I learned that DW feels I don't support her enough emotionally and that she is jealous of the time I devote to friends. She has also been able to cut down the abuse.

I have made changes and adjustments and I really thought things were improving, but a few days ago DW was very angry, told me we can't go on llike this, that I must make more large changes to sort my emotions out. She said she will 'make a decision' in four weeks, and has been 'thinking about an exit strategy'.

I still love her, and I believe I am a good partner to her. The situation is however very stressful and I think about it constantly. I'm having trouble sleeping. I am no longer sure what I think or want to do. Do I continue to try, buy her flowers, give her loads of careful thought and attention and love, be empathetic, keep trying with sex... or at what point do I give up, and then what?

It feels good just to write this down... but any advice would be welcome :)

I think you have posted before?
What do you get out of this relationship?
Most men stay because they is SOME sex involved so they think it's better to stay and have sex than be single and celibate.

Maybe it's time for you man up and take control of the situation.

You need to seriously start thinking about your 'exit strategy' instead of staying in this crap relationship with a woman who has cheated on you and shown absolute no signs of regret.

I'm sorry, that all sounds pretty grim.

TBH it sounds like she's decided already that she wants out. With what you've said about her behaviour, I don't think that is a bad decision. She may have "been able" ( ) to stop verbally abusing you but most veterans of abusive relationships will tell you that the abuser rarely makes that change permanent - they act nice enough to draw you back in for a bit, then it's back to the old patterns of nastiness.

In your position, I would utilise the counselling sessions to discuss how to separate in a mutually respectful and amicable way, putting your DC's needs at the forefront of the discussion.

Thank you for replying.

I have never posted before.

I don't know why I stay, some friends tell me to stick it out, that things will get better, that if anyone can make it work we can. I don't want to make her angry and upset.

Believe me I am not staying because of the sex, we haven't done it since June, I know I could have a much healthier sex life if I was single. I occasionally fantasise about other people but would never cheat.

She was very regretful about the "affair", she came out with it in tears, she has been very apologetic and open and honest when asked about it.

I know things are bad but it's very difficult to take the decision that enough is enough.

OP I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this, but I think your wife wants out of this marriage and wants you to be seen as the reason it has ended.

She's shifting the blame onto you and I don't think any amount of changing on your part is going to make any difference, as it appears she keeps moving the goal post further and further away.

Pocketsaviour thank you that is helpful and makes me think.

If I ask her she says she still loves me and doesn't want to split up. But she is erratic and inconsistent.

It will be very painful but I think I will raise "breaking up" respectfully at the counselling.

ChilliandMint yes you may be right, I do get the "shifting goalposts" feeling.

I worry that we will stumble on for more months or years badly unless one of us pulls the plug. Do I really want to do that? Am I brave enough to follow through?

A general question - our counsellor has never suggested we consider splitting up, despite knowing about all the abuse. Do counsellors ever cross that line, or do they wait for one of us to suggest it? Counsellor has said they think we will pull through!

A councillor will never suggest you split up . Their purpose isn't always to
" save" a marriage ,but explore the best options for all concerned.

Oh Enman, it sounds like you are having a tough time.
Does your DW hold most of the power in your relationship? You said she will make a decision in a few weeks time. I think this sounds controlling, she seems to be calling the shots and frankly telling you that she is considering an exit strategy doesn't sound as if she sees a long term marriage with you.
I suggest you consider your own exit strategy too. Even a temporary separation might give you (both) the space to consider what life might be alike alone.
Is your DW over the PND? Somehow she doesn't sound balanced, I don't know much about MH issues and I apologise if I have got the wrong impression. If there is something there perhaps a visit to the GP may help?
I hope things work out for you both.

Thank you DarkRosaleen. Yes she has generally had most of the power, although I have become much more confident and able to challenge her and tolerate conflict over the last 12 months. I wonder if that is what she is reacting badly to.

She has always had some anxiety and related issues, and was on SSRI medication for most of our time together, but gave them up about 2 years ago, which was one year after a very close family member of hers died. She has had CBT.

Would most people here say that any pattern of verbal abuse is too much, and itself a justifiable reason to leave a relationship? It got so bad about a year ago, that I was actually recording the interactions on my phone, so that I was able to listen later and process what she was saying, and make diary entries about how I felt about it (pretty horrible).

I worry sometimes that I am staying in the relationship because I think I "should", rather than because I want to. But this is hard to admit, even to myself.

In fact, I had had enough and was almost gearing up to leave when we started the counselling (which was her idea) - Now I worry that the counselling may have just delayed things and prolonged the pain.

Thanks to all who have answered, it is all helpful.

Why 4 weeks? Have you thought about explaining to her that a month where you feel on test or trial will be difficult for everyone? Can she articulate what it is in 4 weeks that will make her mind up either way? It doesn't sound happy for anyone and the balance of power sounds tough on you. In your place I think I'd be trying to establish how done a deal this is for her and what you want vs what is realistic in the future. It might be then that where your energies need to be is navigating the least painful split you can.,

She actually said she wants to make a decision by October half term (which is about 4 weeks) - not sure why that timescale. After a little more discussion she was then saying "but it's not an ultimatum..." - what does she mean, I don't understand, how can I not interpret this as an ultimatum?!

I really truly do not know what is motivating her - maybe she has had enough and wants to leave (and wants to blame me) and that's where we are heading... or she really wants to stay together (she claims this is her preferred option, if I can change) and is just expressing frustration in the hope I'll sit up and listen, and try harder to change...

It sounds pretty miserable all round, what does she want to change about you and why do you have to do all the changing? Do you really think it's healthy for your children to grow up with this kind of atmosphere in the house? It must be awful...do you and your wife ever enjoy each other's company and just laugh? Are there good times?

There are plenty of good times, yes. She and I have a lot in common and often have weekends away as a family, or get a babysitter and go out together. We somehow put the arguments away somewhere and have a good time for a while, until it blows up again. I really thought things were recovering until the 'ultimatum' from nowhere.

I am concerned for the kids but both DW and the counsellor say it's ok for the kids to see parents fighting, so they learn to express their emotions or something?! She is a good mother to them and clearly loves them dearly, as do I.

When I asked what she wanted she said I had to 'sort my emotions out' which I find hard to interpret. She has always said I am emotionally distant to her and 'like an island'. She has been on a work trip since Wednesday so I have to wait for tonight to talk more. She has a very successful career.

she claims this is her preferred option, if I can change

Change how? Does this actually mean "Go back to letting me take all my anger out on you and stop standing up for yourself"?

When you say that you have grown in confidence and self-esteem in the last year, that is very familiar to me. The same thing happened in my marriage; I was very needy when I met my husband and he was incredibly supportive and helped me grow. But when I did grow, he didn't like it! He needed me to need him, iyswim. He couldn't cope with a confident partner because he couldn't see what I would then want him for. The more confident I got, the more he started to put me down verbally.

We went to counselling but it became obvious during the process that it just wasn't going to work. Like your wife, my H complained that I needed to "sort out my attitude" which apparently meant stop speaking up when I disagreed with him. Well that just wasn't going to happen

x-post.

both DW and the counsellor say it's ok for the kids to see parents fighting

Oh dear, sounds like you've got a shit counsellor. Is it through Relate? Unfortunately their training program is piss-poor.

Yeah, watching their parents shout verbal abuse at one another is TOTALLY OKAY. Fuck me. No it's not, it's really really not.

Witnessing your parents having disagreements and finding a solution - good way to model conflict resolution. Letting your children watch while you hurl drunken insults at your partner - not so much.

Thanks pocketsaviour.

Yes, she doesn't like I will challenge her now, when I would have just taken it before.

But I don't actually think she means I should go back to being a punchbag. I think she really believes I have a problem with my emotional connections, and that this means she doesn't get the support from me she needs. I was bullied as a young kid, which might be still affecting me now (I have tended to be anxious about upsetting or disappointing people, DW included). After discussing this in counselling she has become insistant that I talk about the bullying with my parents (who I hid it from at the time), my brother, old school friends. I feel very uncomfortable even thinking about talking to them about that, but I think she feels this is part of 'sorting out my emotions' that I must do.

She can't insist that you discuss upsetting incidents from your childhood with your parents. Only do that if you want to do it.
What exactly are your 'emotional' problems? Lack of empathy? Disengagement from family or friends? Maybe you do have such issues if so could counselling or CBT or something help you?

I myself don't think I have serious emotional problems. Yes I have tended to be anxious about upsetting people or disappointing them, and this sometimes means I'll go out of my way, even doing things I don't really want to do, to avoid that. I am aware of this and it is getting better gradually. I have talked it through with a counsellor earlier this year.

...and I have an excellent set of friends, or multiple groups really. I feel connected to them and I can empathise with them. My wife doesn't like me spending time with them. She says I should prioritise her, I believe I do. At one point she was very suspicious of a female friend who I am quite close to - but I and her have always behaved appropriately in my opinion.

The counsellor never really reacts the way I was expecting. For example, I will relate how I came home to find her drunk with the 7yo on her lap, she was shouting and screaming and swearing at me with the poor kid right there. Both kids can sense when we are fighting and usually make themselves scarce. The counsellor listens (and both DW and I are there) but she doesn't ever say "that is not acceptable, what is going on?" Instead she will ask about what we were feeling, try to analyse the situation, and then move on.

I could suggest we try another counsellor, but we have invested many months in this one, and really I'm starting to think what is the point?

I can say without hesitation that your counsellor is crap, and unfortunately it sounds like she's minimising or even validating your wife's unacceptable behaviour.

Honestly - I'd cut your losses if I were you and make plans to move on. Her 4-week deadline rubbish is very controlling.

It also sounds like she wants you to be something you're not with all this "you have emotional problems" bollocks. Presumably that's not something that's particularly changed during the marriage? So either she's changed herself and wants you to change in response, or she's picked something that's an essential part of you to moan about, knowing you won't be able to meet her demands, thus allowing her to exit the marriage saying to herself "I gave him a chance to change, but he wouldn't." Manipulative rubbish.

Pocketsaviour I really appreciate your thoughts. She is manipulative and controling. I worry I have been too compliant and not stood up for myself enough in the past. I don't want to do that any more. Congratulations on making the decision to sort your own relationship out.

I think I know what I want to do - steer things towards the least traumatic separation for all involved. It is very daunting and I worry about how family and friends will react. How will I explain it to them? How will she explain it? Why hasn't she already left me? Can I do it?

ChilliandMint: A councillor will never suggest you split up . Their purpose isn't always to " save" a marriage ,but explore the best options for all concerned.

But what if the best option for all concerned is to split up, but one or both partners can't see that? E.g. if there was physical abuse? Would a counsellor not say "you guys need to spend some time apart"