What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Your 31 years? Did a boy reject you as a girlfriend when you were 2?

In reality it's not 31 years but more like 15. I'm not negating your current experience of rejection but do be accurate? You regularly mention your age, also in terms of it being a grand age ('in all my 31years') but, well, that's absurd: you are very young. I mention eg giving, volunteering etc as a means to broaden your experience, to knock you, inspire you, out of the dirge of your current experience and thinking, to see your life in context. Not least that 31 is very young. Though I appreciate you may feel ancient bcs of your awful troubles from childhood up - the reality is you are not.

The convos you have with your therapists, is that how it really goes? Bcs they sound quite caricatured. You also seem to take up a position of resistance, in the opposite corner, like a boxer: it's this/no it isn't/yes it is/no it isn't. You have done this also with every suggestion presented to you on this thread: nope, can't, won't; because, because, because. That won't have come from nowhere btw. You're not so much a victim of your childhood as a product - that's how it goes. Do you think you should have it sorted by now 'in all your 31 years'? Bcs, if so, please tell me the secret bcs I havent got it sorted and I've had much longer plugging away, similarly brave and endlessly resourceful, with attendant extensive therapy. Fucked up in childhood, pretty much fucked up for the duration. Adulthood doesn't give us a ticket out, a new page, the past scotched out and ditched through sheer effort of will. It doesn't work like that, unfortunately: you take it with you.

What I experience is different to what I thought or expected, tho no less rewarding and enjoyable - I would say that suffering gives one a capacity to enjoy life much more - once we face disappointment and despair, stop looking for the way out, accept we were mashed up when it mattered and that the effects of that, to a greater or lesser degree, will always be apparent. In short, accept our lot as much less than perfect. In truth i feel sorry for your generation: you have been led to expect so much, most of it unrealistic and unobtainable.

on the contrary, Springy, I don't mention my age because I feel old, I mention it because I can't bear the thought that I am only about a third of the way through and it has been universally shit, and shows no signs of changing. I feel like the last ten years particularly has passed in the blink of an eye!

No a boy didn't reject me as a girlfriends when I was 2, this is why I think it's such a nonsense to try to explain my failure in relationships, in eating, in anything, to my childhood. Trying to put everything down to "learned behaviour" doesn't make sense to me, if I am so resourceful and resilient surely I have the capacity to unlearn it and re-learn behaviours that won't be damaging for me?

And I haven't rejected every suggestion on this thread, I've merely explained where the pitfalls are and where they have failed in the past. I find people are so quick to dismiss seeing all eventualities as pessimism. I can lie and say everything is great and anything is possible, all my problems are solved, but why lie? I don't think I will make a lifelong friend by going out, but I will still go because there is a minor, minor chance that I will, and I may enjoy myself in other ways. I'm not despairing and rejecting everything and saying "It's no use, there is no point in even trying". I try and try and try but all I'm doing is admitting it was really hard, and owning up to some occasions when I tried and failed and taking it as a learning point (isn't admitting failure all part of self acceptance?). I'm not admonishing myself for failure, I'm just recognising where it happens.

I once had a manager who yelled at me about something I wasn't to blame for and I said I'd try to fix it, but she said trying isn't good enough, you have to succeed. Maybe she was right?

I've never expected or strived to be perfect, I only wanted to be good enough and accepted.

Boldly

I don't go for all the psychobabble either. "Daddy issues" is no different from "penis envy" in my book of over-simplistic explanations of the human mind.

However, childhood is where we learn how our emotions work and you've been denied that opportunity. There's this hugely significant part of your life that you've not yet processed on an emotional level. You don't have to revisit the details and summoning up those memories is probably only going to traumatize you all over again. However, it's clear to me that you're making a significant effort to downplay the emotions that you could be expected to have regarding your childhood.

Have you considered that you may be suffering from PTSD?

Aww x-post. You were all lovely and open and I was sledge-hammery. Sorry. Meant in the best way.

I've had a lot of experience of recovery groups and this is the score: to challenge. For the best reasons. When I say 'recovery' I mean recovery from shit childhoods; whether that be 'adult child' recovery groups or eg substance recovery groups, or depression/anxiety groups etc etc. Plenty about, esp if you live in a city.

I haven't had that script with my therapist, no, but that's how I imagine the conversation will go. there was something she said about eating and breastfeeding and how it's the very first experience you have of bonding with a person and nourishing yourself, and perhaps my difficulties with my mother explain why I can't eat normally now. Well, perhaps that is true, perhaps that is a load of mumbo jumbo, but either way what does it matter? How will discussing whether I was breastfed or whether my mother treated me badly stop me from binge eating and vomiting now? I feel like I need proof of a theory before I can buy into it (I'm quite the scientist at heart) but talking about feelings from my infancy without a clear reason why it is relevant feels odd. I tried to say "well great, maybe that's what some psychology theorists think. What do I do with this information?". But no one can explain it. I don't blame my therapist, she's not the only one, and I am loathe to ditch her and find another one as they are hard to come by, I don't want to start from scratch and I actually quite like her (though I have a feeling she finds me too frustrating...)

Sledgehammer is fine, Springy , we're all friends

I don't think I have PTSD as I don't feel traumatised or stressed right now. Maybe Post-PTSD.

The emotions I have towards my childhood are sadness that I wasn't provided with safety, security and love as all children should be but many unfortunately are not, relief and peace that it's over and a strong sense of right and wrong and how people, child or adult, should be treated. I don't have any feelings of upset, or resentment or anger. I have sorrow that it wasn't a happy childhood, but I am at peace with it so I don't see any lasting repercussions from it. Evidently the whole world disagrees with me on this

You are frustrating, girl. No question about that

It is not simple typing on this baby tablet but can I just say, without finding the blasted examples, that your either/ors are football fields apart. Could you at least entertain that challenging you on your b&w conclusions is not necessarily calling you a pessimist and rejecting what you are saying bcs I am afraid of pessimism and think I ought to jolly you along/count your blessings/think of the poor starving children in Africa? Can you at least entertain there is more to it than that? More nuance?

for sure, springy, I'm open to suggestions. But I don't believe them unless they have proof. I will accept I am wrong if people can prove it

This is one of my qualities, I am stubborn as an ox somewhat headstrong. I don't think people like it. Perhaps that explains it all.

I frustrate myself way more than I frustrate anyone else, if that's any defence.

Eh, I saw this screen still on as I turned off my alarm, oxen aren't known for stubbornness are they? I need to go to bed earlier, mixing up all my hoofed animals

PTSD Avoidance:

Avoidance is an attempt to defend oneself against danger by limiting contact with the world. This can involve withdrawing from others or narrowing the range of thoughts and feelings a person allows him/herself to acknowledge.

Your feelings about your childhood seem quite removed, almost abstract. From the way you talk, it's as though they happened to someone you know rather than yourself.

I accept that's a theory, ITP, and it can be the case for many people, but I just don't feel that way. My feelings are my feelings, I can't synthesise new, suitably visceral and raging ones because the textbooks say I should, that's like asking me to be something I am not.

It's like someone insisting I must be gay and I am suppressing my true feelings but am too scared to disclose them because bad shit might happen. But I am saying "no no, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of being gay, see absolutely no shame in it, and wouldn't have a problem if I or anyone else is, but I just don't think I am!" That's how far removed I feel from being in denial. I've already considered the possibility, I've been very thoughtful about it for many years and I reached certain conclusions. Why is it so inconceivable that perhaps, just maybe, I might know my own self and my own feelings?

Or it's like saying to someone "you really love someone, you're just too scared to admit it because you're too scared of getting hurt", and I reply that no, they're a lovely person and perfectly loveable but I just don't fancy or love them in any way. But instead of accepting that perhaps my feelings are the truth and I am in a better position than anyone to know what they are, there is an insistence that I am just in denial and I am running away from my true feelings because I don't want to leave myself vulnerable. I know that can happen, and have even experienced it before, but don't think it's the current case.

Or it's like " if you just let Jesus in to your heart..."

I acknowledge that my childhood was bad. I know if happened to me, and that it shaped some ways I am as a person now, but it's all a bit abstract because it's years and years ago and I do feel like a different person now, I am so much more than a child in an adult's body.

I don't feel like I am protecting myself from painful feelings because I just don't feel pain about it anymore, it can't hurt me anymore. I've perhaps felt it in the last, but I don't now.

I realise this is a bit cyclical but I have no counselling appointment this week so no one to discuss it with, annoying the thread instead

So glad you're back itp apart from anything else, she listens to you . you was missed.

Shall we all have a love-in? Group hug?

Sun's shining, washing on the line (always makes me happy). Busy day today and tied up the next week or so. Won't be on much are you kidding I'm addicted . I'll try to get my head around refusing to do, try or accept anything until there is proof. I would say that a significant eating disorder and zero relationships is proof [of significant disquiet underneath fierce muscle between then and now] but there we go.

Itp, take it away (no pressure). Love to you ToGo (can't prove that love, sorry. Is it love? Actual love?)

haha I listen to you too, Springy I'm equal opportunities in my stubbornness. Enjoy your week

ToGoBoldly if you're saying that you ended up in this situation because of the way you look, then what about the rest of us behind your screen? Are we all supermodels? I don't think so.

I don't think I'm physically attractive btw (thanks to fucked-up childhood) but when I'm able to be objective about it I think I look ok, I am thin, other people have said I'm attractive, I bathe regularly, wear clean, normal-looking and hopefully quite nice clothes etc.
But it's years since a man expressed any interest in me, except various emotionally-abusive exes trying to take advantage of my loneliness. (To be optimistic, maybe it's partly because I'm not nearly as brave as you are about going out and keeping on trying; the few people I know are mostly arty and most of the men are gay. And I'm much older than you. And suffer social phobia so if anyone speaks to me I look like Bambi caught in the headlights.)

Anyway, clearly it's not about being physically attractive. I get depressed sometimes looking at all the people I know who not only don't meet conventional standards of beauty—but much worse, who are self-centred, sarcastic, egotistical, mean, bad-tempered and sport various other unpleasant qualities—but have been apparently happily coupled-up for years, or who never seem to have a problem finding people to go out with or do things for them.

Maybe I give off crazy vibes, maybe I come over as needy or weird or too intense or sad or frightened or as you say dead behind the eyes. But it's definitely not just about how much you weigh or the texture of your hair (I'm mixed too, btw).

In the days when I did have relationships they were with one very nice person who I took advantage of and stayed with for a long time because I simply couldn't manage alone (and have felt guilty ever since) and two long EA relationships with men who made me feel even worse about myself.

As springydaffs said, you are very good at playing "Yes, but..." (So am I.)
You may "win" those arguments logically, but it's not helping you.
So maybe you could try to be open to other kinds of approaches/discussions even if they don't make sense to you at the time? Placebos can work even if people don't believe in them. What do you have to lose?

Sorry for epic post, don't mean to hijack but I wanted to show that there are other people in your situation. So many of us on this thread have so much in common. But you're younger and have more potential to change.

Hi Weevil. I can't stand it when people write epic posts on internet fora, I mean, why can't they be concise and pithy and keep it short and sweet and within one post at a time, like I do . Oh, wait

Seriously, it's not a hijack.

I don't think it's purely or mostly because of my looks but I do think that is a subconcious part of this. If we're going to accept the theories of childhoot abandonment and PTSD avoidance and everything like that, can we not accept that unconsious bias might have a part to play as well? I'm not the most hideous creature that has ever walked the planet but I feel like perhaps I am "not quite right" for anyone. It's not that people are repelled by me, they just don't choose me for their own reasons. And I know that this is a possibility because I have heard people say straight "I couldn't be friends with a white girl, nothing against them, but I couldn't" or "I wouldn't date a black man" or "The Chinese, there's just something about them I don't like, no offence". Obviously these people are narrow minded twats, if not totally racist ones, and if they don't want to be open to person X for such hideous superficial reasons, then good riddance, person X deserves so, so much better anyway. But if it feels like no one is liking you, not that they dislike you but you're just not right for them, it's gutting.

And it's so soon after meeting people (if they ever give me the time of day in the first place) that they lose interest that it can't possibly be for anything more than superficial reaons, I barely get past telling them my name and why I am there. Maybe I have a really awful voice?! I joke, I hate my voice but everyone hates their own voice.

I sometimes think I don't match up to people's expectations. People say "I bet you're really wild" based on nothing other than my untamed hair. And I say, actually no, I am pretty calm and considered. Even though there's nothing wrong with calm and considered, they seem to take umbrage at the fact I have not met their expectations so they back away, even though I am perfectly calm and normal when I respond to them. I'm not replying in a confrontational, "how dare you?!" kind of way, just telling the truth. But that's not massaging their egos enough. I think many people, particularly women, have to suffer and challenge shit assumptions about them based on really superficial nonsense all the time, so I know I am not alone in that respect. But it's silly to deny that this phenomenon, where people judge and respect people on nothing but what they see immediately, exists (though it's too simple to say "i'm too ugly to be anyone's friend", that's not what I am saying at all). It's just tiresome when it feels like it's all the time.

I don't come across as intense, or needy, or anything that even I would find offputting. I don't even get to that stage of relating to people. So perhaps it doesn't feel like I am bad, it just feels like there is always someone better.

I even had a man I had known for over ten years ask me a while ago, "why don't you ever have a boyfriend? You're intelligent and confident and have interests and are an interesting person, you're independent but sociable...". I was embarrassed, because it's humiliating to say "well no one seems to want to be my boyfriend", but I said "I don't know, what do you think?". And, having known me for ten years and being someone who is happy to tell it like it is, someone I can rely on to tell the truth if asked, I am sure if I gave off a vibe of being needy or crazy or something, he would have said. But he just said "I don't know". So it was getting even more humiliating so I just made a joke about being too busy these days anyway.

Anyway. Yes I know I am reluctant to lose if my reasoning is completely logical and other people's reasoning is completely trashed by the evidence of my experience. Truthfully I am open to trying something different but I just can't see how it helps. I spoke about my terrible stepdad and my adolescence before (with a different counsellor), and she just said something like "Oh that's bad, don't you see how none of that was your fault?", and I was bemused, because I never ever said or thought any of it was my fault. I said as much, "I never said it was my fault, but never mind; what am I supposed to do now with this information?", but then this is taken by them as further evidence that I am so damaged and argumentative and screwed up by my childhood and I just can't accept the truth as declared by Freud or whoever. So I just don't know what talking about things is supposed to achieve. I mean I'll do it, but I remain skeptical and if skepticism will ruin the process, what can I achieve?

For context, in case it sounds like the "why do you never have a boyfriend?" was a come-on, it wasn't. I've known this person for many years and he is not romantically interested in me, nor I in him; also, he is not single. It was more an "I'm so happy being loved up, and look how happy and loved up all our mutual acquaintances are, why don't you get yourself a man, girl? You're alright, I've known worse people manage it, why can't you?" And that's the question I am trying to answer. Except it's not just a lack of partner that's the trouble. I wouldn't care about that nearly as much, if at all, if I had some friends to share my life with.

springydaffs Group hug, yes! And loving the sunshine too.

I've not got as much time to post as I'd like at the mo, I'm afraid.

To no-one in particular:

We are all individuals, and I suppose I'm just extrapolating from my experiences. I do feel like I've been where those here have been, though. The rational mind is an immensely powerful tool, but for me it really did take over my life. I am an empiricist first, second and third. Or rather I was, until recently. No, I'm still that person, but I've allowed a new idea into my head - one I can actually accept on a rational level but that helps me loosen the rational chains.

The attraction of rational thought is, as I see it, that it has all the apparent properties of being straight-forward, logical and transparent. We feel like we can see it working, can pore over all the processes and can understand it. Contol it. That last bit is the vital clue of what's really the problem. Rationalization is a way of understanding the world in a way that we feel we are in control of, and we have lived childhoods where we have had no control at all. Our emotions, our intuitive, instinctive side is, at least for us, the opposite of this. Impossible to control, impossible to understand, and as children it has told us to do the exact opposite of what we thought we had to do to survive. It is something we became afraid of precisely because it's lumped in with our childhood lack of control over our situation.

As capable and independent adults, maintaining this status quo makes no objective sense. People who are happy, who love and are loved, who engage in life and with other people in a positive way do so because they have mature emotional sides. They do not need to explicitly control their intuition because they trust it, and have learned when to be careful of what their emotions say to them. They live both rationally and intuitively and the two aspects compliment each other. For us to get from rational to both rational and intuitive takes a leap of faith. We have to accept that our intuitive side is as smart as our rational side, but it has a toolkit that our rational side does not. One that actually leads to better outcomes with less certainty before action is taken.

I now imagine my intuitive side as one of those machine-filled rooms at Bletchley Park. I feed punch cards into it and it spits out decoded solutions to the puzzles of life. It's difficult work running the machines, and I find myself reacting badly to the outputs sometimes. But I take the response to that output and feed it back into the machines to get a new explanation. Slowly I'm learning - I'm sticking at it and am definitely much more at ease with myself already. I believe in the machines; no matter what I feel about life, I believe that as long as I keep feeding my rational thoughts and immediate experiences into them I'll get an output that helps me.

Boldly

You do know that you didn't have to justify that last part about the friend you spoke to about having a boyfriend? I took it as exactly what you meant. And even if you fancy him, that would be fine too.

I wonder if you often find yourself feeling the need to justify and explain yourself both internally and others? Do you do much in your life simply because you would like to, without rationalizing the consequences or caring what other people think? Do you ever think "Fuck-it, I need cheering up so I'll go do x" and then do x without any feelings of guilt, doubt or remorse?

And would you like to be the wild person you're sometimes imagined to be? I'd like to be less inhibited myself.

I wonder if you often find yourself feeling the need to justify and explain yourself both internally and others?

Not really, no. If it's a hugely important bone of contention and something I believe in to my core, I will defend my position robustly if my belief is strong and someone is telling me I am wrong, without giving me good reasons (you would never have guessed, right?). But justifying myself for trivial stuff like this conversation, or a random opinion? No, I don't sweat it, I'm laid back about that kind of thing.

I only thought this story was worthy of clarification because the last (nay, only) time I said to someone "You don't have a girlfriend? Why is that?!" was because I desperately wanted to be his girlfriend and was hoping he'd say "because I have been waiting for you", ha. So I wanted to point out that it was nothing like that when I was the one being questioned.

And I don't care about justifying my actions to others, either. I'm very much, hey, do what you feel is right for you, I will do what's right for me. I'm not a people-pleaser, I do my own thing. I never feel bad about doing things to try to cheer myself or treat myself. Other people may think my version of treating myself is boring as fuck and not a treat at all, but I'm not going to change because I'm not doing the done thing. They might go to the pub a few times a week and drink booze, or go on a fancy holiday, or buy some expensive shoes, I will go to a dance class because dancing makes me feel alive. I'm not judging them for their choices, they might judge me as being a bit of a loser, but who cares? I don't.

In fact, dancing was one of my "I feel shit, I'm going to do something new and just for me" things, after many many occasions of being let down by certain people. Then one of said people said I spend too much time on it these days and am never free to see them as often . I don't see them any less than I did before, I just am not sitting at home twiddling my thumbs on standby for when they deign to make arrangements with me and not flake just as I have spent ages putting on my makeup and doing my hair and am about to leave the house.

So no, I am quite confident to please myself and not care what other people think. If it feels right I will do it. Yes I am very rational but sometimes I do things on impulse too, just because.

Go on, say this entire post is evidence of me feeling I have to justify myself

Do I wish I were the wild person that people assume I am? No, absolutely not. I want people to like me for who I am, not what they want me to be based on their shit assumptions. And I quite like myself, I don't think "wild" would add anything to my worth.

I'm calm by nature but calm is not a synonym for passive or inhibited (I've performed in front of hundreds of people, I am not inhibited in bed, I'm happy to state my opinion...). I'm just not Scary Spice, loud and boisterous is not me, and I don't think it's desirable. I'm happy with my quiet confidence, thanks. It's a pity that introvert is a pejorative word these days.

When people say wild, they don't mean spontaneous and fun and go-getting, they mean the negative stuff like aggressive, "a bit of a slutty goer", probably a bit thick, some sort of primitive jungle woman.

People might want their lazy stereotypes to be true so they can feel they are awesome at putting people into boxes, but I'm not wishing I could be some caricature to satisfy them. It's completely stupid. I'm sure an angelic-looking blonde woman would get equally tedious assumptions based on her looks. Or a black man. It's tedious at best, and offensive and fetishizing at worst. I don't like it when people get so caught up in you being "other" that they can't even be bothered to find out what you are really like. It makes you feel they believe you are less human than they are, and you're expected to pander to them if you don't want to be labeled difficult.

ugh, prompted by that, I just remembered a minibreak I took a few years ago, to a very predominantly white European city (traveled alone, natch), and this boy, who must have been about 16, and his mum were also tourists at the same attraction. And they were both talking about me and pointing, and then the boy started taking photos of me! I felt like a bloody caged animal in a zoo. Not because he thought I was beautiful or attractive, but because I was so bizarre looking to him, I know this because, unlucky for me, I'm fluent in their language so could understand exactly what they were saying. And I kept trying to escape them around the site, it was almost funny but it felt so uncomfortable and dehumanizing.

When I was a young, bright eyed, optimistic young buck, I thought we lived in enlightened times. ha.