He just does not 'get it' - how to improve communication

[ConsideringOptions]

NCer here.

I accidentally tripped over H's 4 year affair recently.
Much as neither of us had been ecstatically happy in recent years, I was totally caught off guard.
He states it was 'just for sex' as we have had a sexless marriage since the birth of our last child 5 years ago.
We have been going to relationship counselling for a number of weeks now.

He still does not get it: I need intimacy and closeness to want to have sex and the mere minimum for that is for us to be able to talk to each other. He comes from a proud family of poor communicators, all sorts of dysfunctional shit going on, passive-aggressiveness or sarcasm being the order of the day. He clearly needs sex to feel close and loved and validated. We do not seem to be able to square this particular circle.

I fully accept that I carry half the responsibility for how bad things have become between us; I kind of gave up trying to initiate the 'difficult' chat, because I was always shut down. When I disagree with him about anything, he feels 'dismissed'; I just does not do 'disagreement', then lets talk about it and, I dunno, compromise or agree on one or the other option. I do NOT have to always be 'right', I really don't, but I like to hash things out and consider it from various sides. He will feel attacked and go in a huff (leaves the room, stoney faced), or say "Yes, Dear" but do whatever he likes.

Sorry, I did not actually mean to go in to all the ins and outs of it, here's my question: is there any hope that he can learn how to cope with difference of opinion? To not feel attacked or dismissed when I truly mean nothing of the sort??
It can be over something as trivial as the paint colour to decorate a room or as serious as whether or not to remortgage the house btw.

We had a fraught session at the counsellor's yesterday. I got very upset because he was complaining of 'lack of progress' by which I reckon he means 'still no sex' and I feel utterly, utterly unheard by him. The lack of sex/his affair are a symptom of a much deeper ill IMO and does not see that

What does the counsellor say?

He's been having an affair for 4 years. There's nothing left to repair. Leave him.

I think unless he's willing to change and learn from his mistakes (and a 4 year affair is HIS mistake, not yours) there's nothing to fix. It can only be a marriage if both parties put in more than they take out. What the hell is he putting in?

The counsellor is doing what a good counsellor should do and is staying painfully neutral. She does say he seems 'detached' in the sessions.

I should have added that LTB is definitely a possibility. He does not get that his sexual infidelity bothers me far less than the fact that he has not been able to speak to me about just how unhappy he has been before seeking validation elsewhere!
'Affair' is not really the correct phrase - he had sex a few times over four years with the same woman.
The thing is comes across as very desperately keen to repair our relationship at all cost, but seems genuinely unable to make changes.

It's all a waste of time, isn't it? Fuck.

Oh, he is putting a lot in: he works very hard, very, very long hours, he loves our children and has always been very involved in their lives, he is funny and charming in company, but just always seems threatened by me and becomes defensive. Apparently, I am 'formidable' - I certainly don't feel it.

You sound fundamentally incompatible. You sound committed to the relationship, and empathetic, trying to understand his point of view and rationalise away his adultery as somehow your fault. He sounds like a disrespectful asshat who rather than try and work on the issues just went ahead and cheated on you.
Unless he accepts responsibility for his actions and displays the remotest bit of interest in changing things, there really is no point is there.

It sounds like you believe he's been damaged by his upbringing/family leading to him being like this. Even if that is true, it's not your problem nor your responsibility to fix. It's his.

t sounds like you believe he's been damaged by his upbringing/family leading to him being like this. Even if that is true, it's not your problem nor your responsibility to fix. It's his.

Yes, I do, and yes, I know it's over to him to even try and fix this.

He's not an asshat (much as I like that turn of phrase ), he's immature and entitled and needs his ego stroking and I did not realise that that was part of my role as his wife .

I would love us to be a team, you know, us against the rest of the world?
It's been 20 years, I said from when I found out I would not make any rash decisions and would work on thing for a year.

I am going to suggest he has a counselling session on his own - the counsellor has said that is an option, and I am going to encourage that.

Well I didn't want to say it straight away, but I kicked my husband out when there was only a hint of an affair. The evidence came later.

After a 4 yr affair, I wouldn't even have considered working things out. If a 4 yr affair isn't a deal breaker for you, what on earth is?!

The possibility of us being 'fundamentally incompatible' is what worries me tbh. There's no fixing that, affair or no affair.

Good question, FolkGirl.
Immediate deal breaker would be any form of physical violence against me or the kids - no second chances. But that is not even a remote possibility - I have seen him angry and annoyed, but have never ever felt in any way threatened.

For me there's more to us than sex. We used to have a very good and exciting sex life, and from where I am standing Life and multiple stressors have just sapped all desire from me. The thought of having sex with anybody just makes me feel exhausted.

"here's my question: is there any hope that he can learn how to cope with difference of opinion? To not feel attacked or dismissed when I truly mean nothing of the sort??"

No

Looks at his own family background; that is what he has learnt from them. All that is ingrained. After all we learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. He has also never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for his actions; infact you accept half the responsibility.

There is really nothing to rescue and or save here. You and he need to be apart now.

A good counsellor doesn't have to stay neutral when a man who had a 4 year affair is whining about not getting laid enough.

If he's really that keen on keeping your relationship together he will listen to you and stop acting like a dick.

So you've told him what you need. He heard the words and hasn't changed his actions.

He knows what you need, he won't do it :( you're at the point of splitting and he won't do it.

You can't make him.

He preferred having an affair with someone else, to being kind and affectionate to you. That was the decision he made in order to have sex. I don't see how you can repair this. You certainly can't do it alone.

What do you think your children are seeing when they look at the two of you as their mum and dad?. They are likely all too aware that things between you are not good and that their friend's parents perhaps seem a lot happier.

What do you want to teach them about relationships and what are they learning here from the two of you currently?.

Do not get sucked into the sunken costs fallacy; that simply causes people to make poor relationship decisions.

Don't forget OP some of those very very long hours he is supposedly working very hard, will be hours spent with OW.

I hear you completely re the lack of intimacy, conversation, being able to talk about things means your sexual desire for him is extinguished.

I don't think he will change. He certainly doesn't seem willing to listen to you and engage with you. He thinks this is all your problem. How on earth is he going to fundamentally change?

You are all right about most of what you are saying.

Work hours are all accounted for - I have no concerns there.

What's the 'sunken costs fallacy'? 'We've spent a lot of time together so there must be something worth saving here'? Is that what it means?

No, I cannot do it alone. I am not sure I want to keep sinking emotional effort in to this, but I will for just now.

The older DCs just 'want us to stay together, please Mummy to don't make Daddy leave', they younger ones are pretty clueless.

I do not take one jot of responsibility for the affair, oh no, that was entirely his own crap decision to make.
I do accept that we have both been unhappy since long before he first had sex with the OW and I accept that it takes two to tango. Or not tango as it were. By which I mean talking, being kind to each other, supporting each other etc.

I like to hash things out and consider it from various sides.

Maybe he doesn't want to hash things out, maybe he's just not that interested or not got much to say about whatever it is, maybe he feels you talk at him not with him. When you say you consider things from various sides maybe you overthink the issue? Sometimes saying less means more...

A good counsellor doesn't have to stay neutral when a man who had a 4 year affair is whining about not getting laid enough.

That was my thought.

Well I wouldn't go into the ins and outs of an affair but my son, who was old enough to understand, explained it to my daughter, who wasn't, as this:

"It's not mummy's fault. Daddy had a girlfriend and you're not allowed to have a girlfriend when you already have a wife."

You might think there's more to the two of you than sex, but he doesn't. It's why he had an affair, broke your marriage vows and betrayed you.

And it's also all he's interested in now.

Folkgirl, trust a child to make it simple and clear, eh?

Yes, I can be a ditherer, I like to have somebody as a sounding board, my decisions are usually considered. As are his, but he does not share whatever thinking process went in to it. If I ask he feels 'undermined', 'questioned', rather than me inviting dialogue.
And yes, I certainly probably talk too much??
Which is another reason why I think one session on his own might be good. I dunno.

I know!

I think you're running the risk of being the only one invested in sorting it out though.

After 4 years, this affair would have been emotional as well as physical. He was having a parallel relationship alongside yours.

I have no advice really. I don't even know why you're trying, to be honest. He's not really. He is happy to stay so long as you give him the sex. That's it. My exh had "no intention of leaving" me. He'd decided that his affair was ok as long as I didn't find out about it.

He still considers me to be the one that ended the marriage (and, by all accounts, his friends agree!) because I was the one who kicked hin out. They're all the same.

"No intention of leaving you". Aw, that's nice isn't it. Saves you having yo have an opinion of your own about what kind of relationship you want to be in

What do you realistically expect one counselling session on his own to achieve?

I am about to leave for the weekend, so will come back and read and post.

I know you are all talking sense.
One session won't achieve anything other than that I'm not in the room to be all angry and tearful and he might be forced to say something a bit more raw.

He said yesterday he had 'a thick skin' - Ha! he so does not, he is good at pretending he does.

Yes, I am concerned that I am doing all the 'work' here and he isn't. That's another thing I am rather angry about. But I said I'd give it a year and I will try.