When is an affair 'ok'

[Patchworkpatty]

Have just returned from a lovely village 'do' . My near neighbour was there, he is a lovely kind guy , middle aged, own home, semi retired . The 'problem' is that he was there with a lady who he is obviously romantically linked to, but he is married and the lady was not his wife. His DW had to move into a care home last year as she has Huntingdons Chorea (sp ?) and despite his Herculean efforts over the last decade he could no longer provide the care she needed. He is devoted to her still but she was diagnosed in her early 30's and has progressed to not being able to walk, talk easily or look after her personal needs hence the care home. He visits daily although she doesn't seem to know him sometimes. (I don't actually know the exact extent of the situation but I do know he hung on to avoiding care until it was impossible) so my question is , 'when does death us do part' become null and void. ? For me, I was thrilled for him to have a 'normal' loving relationship, but there were others there 'tutting' in the background and even one person being quite vocal in their disgust ! So maybe I have got this wrong. Are situations like this the exception to the rule ? He has been her carer for about 22 yrs. no DC's .

Wahey, not wages!

" to death us do part" ? it depends on the condition of his wife, she may to all intents and purposes already be dead. I've known HC sufferers lucid right up to the end, and others who stopped existing inside their bodies years before.

Ginger, I don't think anyone denies that the man has the 'better deal'. Precisely what is anyone supposed to do about it? Nobody can control who falls ill.

We are all very sorry for the wife, but the question was not 'do you feel bad for her?' It was 'do you think the man is in the wrong to start a new relationship while continuing to support his sick wife who no longer recognises him?' For many of us, the answer to that is 'no'. He cannot do anything about his wife's illness, other than support her as he still does and has done for over ten years. He can do something about his own wellbeing.

You appear to be gendering it when it is not a gendered issue. In this particular case, it's the wife who's ill and the husband who's not. I personally would say exactly the same thing if the genders were reversed, and I have done.

Your posts read to me as though you are trying to imply that the man doesn't have a right to pursue his relationship because he is fortunate enough to remain able-bodied. Is that your feeling?

No, not at all Sheba.

But I do think it's gendered, insofar as a woman put in a caring role would be expected to get on with it while a man is seen as a hero - not dissimilar to society's views on single parents being different according to their sex.

I do think the 'oh gosh, the poor man, how terrible' posts were a bit I mean, absolutely it is sad, but just the same his wife is in a home, he isn't solely responsible for her care (and I know a lot of people who do care for loved ones at home and THAT is draining!) and - he hasn't been letting life pass him by, has he?!

As I've said, I would have expected at least one person to have said how sad it was for his wife, and I am disappointed they haven't. I'm in my mid thirties and if I lost control of my limbs and bowels and ended up in a home and you all felt sorry for DH, I wouldn't be impressed!

Well Ginger, he WAS solely responsible for her care for ten years, and then it finally reached a point where she needed round the clock care in a specialist environment. You seem to be more hung up on us expressing sympathy for the wife than answering the actual question, which is about the choice he's made regarding the part of the situation he can control and change.

If we had all started our posts by expressing sympathy for the wife in a few lines and then gone on to say the exact same things, would that have changed anything?

The partner in the poster story could well come on this site to state her view. Or/and any other women who has been in her position, or women who have known other women friends in that situation.
Mumsnet is a wonderful open honest public forum.

Gingermakesmesick - that is interesting why the new partners were not happy.

viridus, so you are indeed seriously suggesting that the new partner should somehow know that we are discussing her situation, and that having gained this knowledge through ESP, should come on to share her experiences because you demand it?

Seriously?

If it makes you feel better, I do know some people who have been in that situation. Some of the relationships lasted, some didn't.

And you are a very strange person.

Yes, I think it would actually.

You see - societal expectations are that men can't cope alone. They need/deserve a wife/companion. That's why single fathers are treated with reverence and like heros - 'did you know he raises the children - ALONE?'

And doesn't this extend to so many areas? Men looking after their own children are babysitting, men doing their own housework are helping out.

Personally I don't think sex is important, and as far as I am concerned, anyone can do whatever they want with anyone else as long as no one gets hurt, and this certainly seems to be the case here so I'm not bothered by it and I don't judge and I'm happy people are happy.

However, the two things that make me uncomfortable are firstly the view that some sort of sexual companion is an absolute must for a man - that he cannot be expected to live out his life alone (why?) and secondly that said sexual companion is some form of compensation for the first one being faulty. Lots of cliches abound in such situations, about grabbing happiness with both hands and not wasting a minute and life is precious.

Have sex, don't have sex. Really, no one should be judging whatever. But having sex with a healthy woman whilst staying married to an unhealthy one doesn't make him a martyr or saint.

i dont think this is gendered at all

Ginger, you are the only person I've seen making any kind of suggestion that anyone is looking at this as a gendered issue. I personally do think sex is very important and I actually pity anyone who hasn't had an experience that makes them feel the same, but different strokes etc.

I don't think anyone who has defended the man's decisions has done so because he's a man; they've done so because he cared for his wife for ten years, and continues to visit her in a home every day, and meanwhile does not pretend he's dead in order to appease a gossipy village community. The fact that he's a man is irrelevant to me and, apparently, to most other posters. The fact that he's a human is what counts.

I don't understand what this particular story and question have to do with men doing domestic duties in general. It's about what happens when your partner falls too ill to maintain any real relationship with you, perhaps by not even recognising you. It's not gendered.

I don't think anyone has called him a martyr or a saint. We've simply said that we believe in his right to pursue this form of human happiness, given his specific situation. Some posters have said they would abstain if they were in his situation; their decision but I don't admire or disparage them for it, it's just their own personal choice. As this is for him.

This was a story line in Corrie

Absolutely, he has the right to pursue happiness. I have said that from the start and on that I agree with you.

But the one with the really awful deal here is the wife. I won't comment further but I would gently remind people of that fact.

Was it? Don't remember that and I always watch Corrie!

A strange person? Maybe.
I do know that I don't "demand" anything, very strange thing to say.

My main point is that when a man has another woman there then becomes three people in the marriage.
I was/am wondering how that would feel from the other woman's point of view/experience.

viridus, "the partner in the poster story could well come on this site to state her view" is a totally bizarre thing to say. How on earth is she to know we're discussing it? And even if somehow she did, why should she have to join us if she doesn't want to?

Personally I don't think she is in the marriage, because the marriage has changed through tragic circumstances that nobody could prevent.

You seem determined to believe that she's unhappy. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but whatever you think won't have any effect on it either way.

Ginger, nobody disputes that the wife is in the worst situation, but it isn't what we're discussing, and it's not what anyone can change.

I know that whatever I think has no effect on anyones situation whatsoever. People are free to make their own decisions.

Perhaps she is happy, perhaps she is not. (the other woman).

For the most of these replies people seem to discuss either:
A) the husbands views
Or B) the wife's views

But there is another person involved here, the other women, so naturally I was wondering what her view was/is.

I have a degenerative disease that people champaign to be euthanised for in this country.

If I deteriorate to that level I would want my DH to divorce me. He would be honourably free, and if he picked up with the right woman, she'd understand his need to continue to visit me, more as a sister than a lover.

Campaign

Ginger you really are being silly.

None of us know if the wife has given her blessing to this relationship.

And the OP was an idiot to call it an affair. Talk about fanning the flames of what may be an open and mutually acceptable situation.

I'd certainly have that kind of conversation with DH and encourage him to take his happiness where he could if I was in a vegetative state- or near enough.

You really do have a very narrow mindset as well as a lack of compassion.

And as I said before, this kind of situation is not that rare. If you are shocked I'd gently suggest you get out a bit more.

I have a very dear friend who has had early onset alziemers, she no longer recognises me and her other friends and her DH has been told that shortly she won't recognise him.
As I see it the essence and spirit of what was my friend is gone. Her Dh has been wonderful and works extremely hard to keep her in a luxury residential home where he stays with her for part of the week.

He is beginning for the first time in 7-8 years to start to have a little bit of a life of his own and I would not begrudge him happiness if he met someone.

My Boss's brothers wife had motor neurone disease and her Dh married within 3 months of her death! My Boss said they were all shocked and it was obvious that his brother and new wife had obviously been having a relationship prior to his wife's death, but he said he couldn't judge as he didn't know what he would do in similar circumstances.

I know I couldn't judge.

I'm not being silly. I have said a few times that I don't object to the affair if you want to call it that but to the sympathy and sadness given to the man when in my view it's his wife who is the one in a pretty awful situation.

You are being silly.

His wife has a terrible illness. It goes without saying that people feel for her.

But feeling all the sympathy in the world for her isn't going to help her DH who has his own needs and his own life to live.

I am sure he has given this a huge amount of thought and most likely has his wife's blessing.

I'm also confused by the idea that people are more inclined to give him an easy ride because he's a man. His community certainly isn't giving him much sympathy, which is one reason why we are inclined to be kindly on here. I can't imagine spending ten years caring for a loved one, while watching them decline, and eventually having to put them in a care home, and going to visit them every day and still being tutted and judged by nosy strangers in public as a bad person. What the actual feck.

HazelBite, I'm so sorry about your friend. Dementia, or any condition where the person loses their self and personality, is absolutely devastating. Swift remarriages after bereavement are not really that uncommon. It's always possible the relationship started before the wife died, but it's not uncommon at all for relationships to start and move very quickly after someone dies...the grief leaves you so raw, so vulnerable, so anxious for comfort, and so aware of your own mortality and limited time, that a lot of people just feel, "fuck it, death's coming for all of us, why waste time?" Everyone deals with bereavement differently, of course, but that is really not an uncommon response, especially in middle or later life.

viridus, I would imagine her view is that she and her partner should be left alone to pursue their relationship and see where it goes. People have every right to their opinions, but in some cases they should keep them to themselves.

ginger Eileen and Paul the fireman and his wife