And he's done it again

[PecanSandy]

I posted about a blow-up with a good friend a few weeks ago.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2428409-Confronted-with-the-ugly-side-of-my-character

we are now abroad on a training course with another colleague. two more are arriving this weekend. The first three of us were having lunch together the other day and I don't know what set him off, but he started in on me again. I have carefully avoided discussing anything personal with him since the last time. I feel he's tried to get a rise out of me several times since by referring to dating or men but I have brushed it off and smilingly asked him to give me a break. Anyway in the restaurant, he started it again. I was embarrassed as our colleague was there and asked him several times to stop and to give me a break. But he kept on, claimed I had insulted him the previous day (I couldn't even remember saying what he claimed I had) and informed me and everyone else within a mile radius that I have no interest in making friends with women and that I only look at men, and then only at their ring finger. This was accompanied by gesticulation and hand waving and pointing. I asked him a low voice to stop, I said i wasn't having this conversation again and again all month, and he snarled, "Oh poor you! Poor you!"

At this point I burst into tears and had to leave the table. When I came back he said "oh everything is my fault isn't it". I apologized to our colleague, who suggested we continue the meal in silence. He didn't speak to me again and left before us. I'm mortified, I didn't want to create awkwardness among our group (I think it was assumed we would meet up for meals and such), but I feel I am finished with him. He could apologize to me, but it seems he feels entitled to rip me apart, and I'm not having it.

I texted him to say it would be better for us to avoid contact. I haven't discussed this with colleague, who is being very tactful. I'm not someone who cries easily (though I am a bit depressed and wobbly lately) but his comments are so mean and uncalled for and he'll just do it again. As I said, he seems to feel entitled.

Am I being a bitch? Should I have done something different? Is it horrible to just cut someone off like this? Why are we acting like teenagers? I didn't even do this shit as a teenager! I don't see what else to do. But I feel terrible.

It is work related and he is bullying you.

Even a situation during a social gathering of colleagues outside of work not organised by the company can be reported to the employer and be used in disciplinary investigations.

But he's never actually bullied her at work, and they don't work together. So it's not carried over from work - it is purely on their personal time. Is there anyone who actually works in HR who thinks this is a great idea? Because I can't imagine how HR can take any disciplinary action over how employees conduct themselves with their friends in their off hours.

Stop giving him an audience - you dont have to listen to anything he says, when he decides to start bullying you, turn away from him towards someone else there and just start a new conversation with them.

Your other colleague was there, and they asked him "several times" to stop as well - they are all on your side about this guy being a bully.

And he is being a bully, there is no "personality clash" that allows someone to rant to someone else to the point of making them cry.

You are doing the right thing by stepping away from him. Some people do this when they are unhappy or depressed they pick on someone close who they see as a bit of a pushover, an easy target and they vent all their frustrations on them. I have seen this happen twice in the last 10 years- middle aged men suffering from low self esteem and depression and they turn on the female friend that has helped them. The more upset they can make them the better they fell about themselves. It's also non threatening as he basically knows you're too nice to say anything. You can bet he wouldn't do this to a male friend. It's all about him and not you.
You walk away now and tell him he's a total fucker who needs to learn some manners.

They work for the same organisation, the course has been organised through work and I assume paid for by the employer and he's bullying her on the course.

Even if they worked for different companies his employer would be vicariously responsible for his behaviour whilst he is on the course and could discipline him for bullying other attendees.

And yes I'm in hr.

How is he bullying her on the course? They are not in the same class and choose to spend time together in the evening. She doesn't have to spend any time with him in order to participate in the course.

Is there anyone who actually works in HR who thinks this is a great idea?

Yes. That's why I said it.

Hey they are 'spending time together' in a group setting. OP shouldn't be expected to hide herself away just because he'll be there. But even if they were 'one to one', it's still harassment. I think you're doing a wee bit of victim blaming. No one should have to change what they do or where they go to avoid harassment and the law does not require that the victim 'stay away' from the harasser, the harasser needs to change (i.e. stop) their behaviour.

Also, it doesn't have to be in the physical workplace. I had a manager who used to drive slowly by my house, peering at it almost every evening after I made it clear to him that I was not interested in him. I reported it as there was no reason for him to be on my street, it was determined to be harassment, and he was moved and cautioned.

No I'm not doing a wee bit of anything, but I am incredulous at the HR angle. I did ask one dept head I knew and she thought I was taking the piss. Sorry but I worry OP might make herself look a bit unprofessional, as the first incident was a private phone call completely outside the office environment. I agree that in your example, Across, that was innapropriate but 1/ it was someone you work with daily and you reported to him directly 2/ it was a repeated incident 3/ it was a pattern of sexual harassment.

I am in no way minimising what the guy did. He is an asshole. A grieving asshole, but an ashole.
At the same time, unless he repeats his behaviour in front of other coworkers and refuses to leave the group (insisting the OP leaves instead)... I don't see what HR can do.

Fair enough. But IIRC, I think he did make remarks in front of others. Plus I'd guess that a good deal of harassment goes on 'behind closed doors' or otherwise in private. Certainly my supervisor didn't shout in the middle of the office 'I'd like to shag you'. That's the 'modus operandi' for many harassers, no witnesses. I agree it makes HR's job more difficult, but sometimes just reporting it and having HR question both parties is enough to get a harasser to stop.

I don't think OP will make herself look unprofessional if she presents HR with a calm recitation of the facts and her discomfort. Even if HR decides there is nothing they can do officially, at least he will have been spoken to and hopefully he'll stop.

I still think OP's best bet is to confront him calmly and tell him that she will report him if he doesn't stop. I have a feeling he will. He seems like a coward and a bully.

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

GilbertBly, no, I've never seen It's Always Sunny. Do they eat Pecan Sandies? They're an American Girl Scout cookie. Not my favourite, actually, that would be the Thin Mints (like Mint Viscounts) or the Peanut Butter Patties (I know, British people don't get peanut butter and chocolate but they irresistable).

To those who've said I should go to HR, actually this course is related to work but half the time we're here is on our own holiday time and not subsidised by the employer. You could say we just happen to be on holiday in the same place. And the nastiness took place in a personal social situation.

If he acted like this at work in front of others he'd be spoken to. Probably we'd both be spoken to. His boss knows all about his personal situation and has tried to be supportive. If I reported what's happened here to my boss he'd probably wonder why. Fortunately I rarely have contact with Mr Nasty at work... except twice a week for three hours at our course, starting in September.

They're all out at dinner again tonight. I was asked last after they'd made their plans. See, they have no problem with him and actually he's always been fine until these two incidents. They probably think I'm just being dramatic or seeking attention, and I did consider going, but the thought of sitting at a table with him made my heart pound and mouth dry. I would not be able to eat or talk to the others. Over-reaction maybe?

But I'm a big girl and actually last year got a bit fed up with feeling I had to meet up with him for meals all the time. So I'll try to enjoy all this time to myself.

AcrossthePond, that's horrible.

Oh wait, are you American? If so discount any HR advice from me as my knowledge is based on UK practise, which affords workers generally a lot more rights (based on my limited and anecdotal understanding of US employment law.)

I am American and missing the Girl Scout cookies, but work in Europe.

Don't go, and don't feel bad about not going. He's a complete dick. You're not missing out because he's there and would make it awful for you. Going anywhere he'll be would be torturing yourself for no reason. And stop being so polite to him. If you see him outside of work and he says something to you, be as rude as fucking possible back "Shut up you insufferable twit, I'm not interested in putting up with your bullshit anymore". If he persists "I don't care/shut up" repeat ad infinitum.

How many more days are you on this course.

I would continue as you are, enjoy your lessons during the day, and enjoy your evenings doing what you want to do.

Are there any site seeing/theatres that you go to.

Posted to soon. I would think hard about how much, if any contact you have with him when you get back home. If I was me I would have none, I don't care how many difficulties he has going on in his life it doesn't give him the right to abuse you and reading your 2 threads for whatever reason he has decided you are 'at fault' and to make himself feel better he is targeting you.

OP, I helped a friend through a really difficult period of her life. Once she'd recovered from the shit she went through and got her life back on track she turned on me in spectacular fashion, for no discernible reason. I think it was part of her regaining her life, by tossing aside everything that reminded her of her lowest period and it was her way of saying I don't need you any more. Lies were told, attempts were made to turn others against me, it hurt like hell, we'd been friends for a long time.

I know exactly why you're keeping a distance and why you can't face going to dinner.

He's a shit and you're probably a victim of his struggles to get his life back together. That doesn't excuse his behaviour though. Stay well away from him, protect yourself from any further attacks.

^
Worzel has it in a nutshell. She's right. You are a reminder of a very bad time in his life and he has to put that reminder right away from him.

Your decision to discuss it with your lead or with HR when you get back. You can talk to them, and just class it as a workplace friendship gone wrong and that you don't expect them to actually take any action, you just want them to know, perhaps, that he's still struggling with what happened to him. I probably would, just so that all the cards are on the table so if things continue or he begins to talk shit about you at work, they will already have had a 'heads up'.

As far as right now, it's up to you. I probably wouldn't let him chase me away from socializing, but if the group isn't big enough to separate yourself from him and talk to others without him making snarky comments, I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to go.

I'm here for the rest of the month. I have plenty of studying to do in the evenings.

He doesn't attack me on a regular basis. It's not some kind of campaign he's conducting against me, I think it was just (another) moment of loss of control on his part, but I can't face it again. He seems to think he can do as he does after a blow-up with his sometime flatmate, just replace the broken eyeglasses, press the reset button and start again.

the others are all out to dinner and theatre tonight, organised by bouncy young colleague who's just arrived. They asked me (after the plans were all made) but I said no and said more than I meant to by way of explanation. I get the feeling they think I'm overreacting, because he's never tried this shit with them (of course they're not in need of his lectures). Now I start to wonder whether I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face. Notice I'm the one who's left out.

Oh well. I've had some enjoyable times visiting places all by myself. In April I was walking alone in Spain for two weeks (talking to people along the way of course) and felt great. I know it's only my depression convincing me I'm lonely, but I really feel like shit. I feel like I'm the one who created a bad atmosphere.

Perhaps have a another night by yourself, then join back in with the group if something you want to do. I think you going to get more depressed/lonely if you keep the whole group separate from yourself.

Try to balance being involved, but not putting yourself outside the group.

More than a week has past with us avoiding each other and me being the one left out of group things. I get the impression my two female colleagues think I'm being childish and a drama queen. The whole situation is making me miserable. This is not at all how I imagined this month. I must admit there is a tiny bit of relief that I don't feel I need to keep him company and can spend the time I need studying, but generally it's just horrible.

He's been a good friend to me most of the time. I don't accept how he spoke to me but we have to get past it. We're going to be spending two half-days a week together next year and working in the same place for many years to come (very unlikely either of us would leave).

So I've written him an email. What do you think?

^You have been a good friend to me 99.9 % of the time and I hope we can still be friends.

I still think the things you said to me at the restaurant were uncalled for, as well as a bit bizarre, especially since they were said in a public place and in front of Colleague. They really hurt and upset me and I needed some time to sort out my feelings. However, I try to believe you said them out of some kind of concern for me.

You can say anything you want to me, if you say it out of true concern and in a gentle way. If I didn't care about what you thought, I wouldn't have been upset.

I don't want us not to be able to get along and I don't want there to be awkwardness within the group, particularly when we go back to XX.

I hope we can have a coffee or something and talk again.

All the best^

No! Don't send the email. Just disengage and mind your onions. Sounds weird, the whole thing.

I know, I feel like I'm grovelling, but it's so unpleasant. The whole atmosphere of the group has been ruined and I don't feel that anyone sees my side. I don't want to be seen as the flouncy troublemaker. Wouldn't it be better to try to be the better person here? And if he does it again I will simply refuse to engage in any way.

I think if you send that it will give him the green light to treat you like shit whenever he feels like it in future. Publicly or privately.

Just go along to the meet ups and sit away from him and don't engage.