MEN

[Bleakhouse1879]

I have been reading alot on here these past few days about many posters unfortunate experiences with their partners. I read stories of wives & girlfriends being raped or sexually assaulted by their partners, being beaten up, treated like dirt, robbed and belittled.

As a man, I am disgusted to hear that this sort of childish almost psychotic behaviour is so wide-spread with so many supposed 'men'. It has genuinely opened my mind to what is happening in my country. These sorts of behaviours were common place but still wrong during the 1950's. No person in Britain in 2015 should be subjected to this sort of disgusting behaviour.

No proper man would hit a woman or force himself on her or want her to feel anything less than tip-top, especially if his partner was the mother of his child. I don't think these people have the right to call themselves men and it doesn't do justice to the men out there who do want to treat their partner as a princess.

I hope any women who have been ill-treated in the past, don't tar all men with the same brush. We aren't all violent, misogynistic bullies. There are genuinely decent people out there and I hope the majority of my fellow men feel the same and it is just a case of a few bad apples

Unfortunately the OP withdrew all her posts but this is an excellent thread about how women, from a shockingly early age, are expected to make themselves sexually available for men. small sexual assaults thread

I know some men who, in private, deride the actions of sexist and abusive men. When with "the lads" though, they join in or at best stay quiet while others promote such objectionable behaviour. I consider that to be condoning the right of men as a class to consider themselves better than women as a class

God save us from the "Good Guy" who doesn't put his money where his mouth is.

I'm with Bleakhouse1879
I'm disgusted at some of the actions taken by men and related in posts here! It's shameful!

Anyfucker
Yes face to face there is at least one occasion where I have told a friend in no uncertain terms what I thought of his actions.

However, I am also shocked at some of the other replies to this thread, I will quote a few;

Society enables it

^I think it broadcasts loud and clear that the man is the main event
but in general it's there to varying degrees^

men feel more important and women feel less important

A society that sends the message that abusing women isn't really that serious, because women matter less

Shocked, really really shocked that people still think this way. This is truly terrible.

I think, Drew, that you sound rather sweet but very naive if you are really really shocked that a large section of society consider women to be less deserving of respect then men.

OP, by appealing to women to not tar men all with the same brush you're asking us to override our own judgement and caution around men based on our own experiences, to benefit your feelings. You have no business doing that. You should respect our judgement and our experiences and work to change the problem of misogyny, not seek to police how women react to it.

A large minority of men like to abuse, assault and otherwise treat women with little respect. Most men are physically capable of killing or seriously injuring a woman if they feel like it. I reserve the right to treat any unknown man with caution until such time as I deem him not to be a misogynist dickhead and men's feelings will play no part in my decisions.

If "good" men's feelings are SO hurt that we might treat them with caution because of our experiences with abusive and violent men, I suggest they listen to women, believe us, take the problem seriously and do something about it proactively, instead of waiting for an instance of misogyny to be shoved under your nose.

Society does a good deal of subterfuge to create that impression on all of us AF. Most of us are that naive. It takes a lot for the scales to fall from our eyes.

Bleakhouse I just guess the use of language such as bad apples and childish made me wince when you were talking about domestic abuse and sexual assault.

When you have experienced it first hand you know it's not really about sex or the individuals behavior or even aggression. It is utterly about power and certainly in my experience they were using my status in society as first a physically small female child (I was 11) and secondly as a wife to overpower me (physically and emotionally). They enjoyed the sense of power they had as a male over me. I'm not projecting here, I saw it in their face . They compounded that power by saying I'd caused it and I deserved it. Where did they get that idea from?

Alot of people who do not have experience of domestic abuse, sexual abuse etc don't understand why women don't report or don't leave, why would they put up with this monstrous behaviour? I had individuals telling me that my life was in danger so I let them abuse me repeatedly. I was scared. I also had society telling me 'make marriage work' 'children from broken families suffer' and more damagingly 'you are a little girl, he is an adult, you don't know what you are talking about, we won't listen to you.'

It's hard to hear from a man 'yes these men are deplorable, yes they are awful to women BUT we are not all like that, its just a couple of evil nutters' because in my experience that's not true. It's about power. It's about innate sexism. It's about having a sense that you are higher in status in society. It's about entitlement. You posting a thread telling us that it's just a few bad uns on a subject you don't really know about reflects a little bit of this. Sorry I know that's harsh.

Actually I'm going to step away from this thread now because it is depressing.

I agree with the OP that you shouldn't tar all men with the same brush as there are decent men and I hope I am one of them. However, sadly it is not a very small majority.

What also saddens me is when there are men who repeatedly engage is unpleasant and sometimes violent behaviour, who when one relationship ends, then move on to another. Women should be in an easier position and have more support to ensure those men face justice.

Shocked, really really shocked that people still think this way. This is truly terrible.

The thing is I think for many people it's some way below the surface. They don't necessarily realise the extent to which they think this way.

I'd even apply that to myself, a very feminist woman who spends a lot of time thinking about it. Yet I look back at my relationship and I have had the tougher deal as regards my career suffering, having carried the can for more of the housework and childcare. Why? Because DP simply doesn't want to have to do it, and society condones him in going back to work full time and me not, and it was just easier for me to go p-t (of course it was, he has the higher status, more secure job, despite us being equally well qualified) and, and, and...

I have spent a lot of energy trying to wrench things around so that DP is required to do his share and this has largely worked. He has improved a lot. But I shouldn't have had to do that. And one reason I accepted his attitude to the extent I did (and am still with him) is because something deep inside me says I should carry the can while something deep inside him says it's OK to be lazy and not do your 50%. Even as he and I both try to overcome that.

I also agree that it's not a few bad apples, or rare people who are "monsters", or "evil" & etc

In fact it is a large minority of men who do shit to women. There are hardly any women around who have not had something, whether it's a "minor" incident like being felt up on the tube, or having something obscene shouted at you while you're out minding your own business, or having your arse pinched in a club, or at the more serious violent end of the scale. The fact that it's so prevalent means that it's an awful lot of men doing it, I'm afraid.

All the othering of "monsters" does is disguise the scale of the problem and make women feel that if it's not something at the horrendous end of the scale then maybe they're making a fuss.

The fact that men don't know about the scale of this. How can that be? I always assumed they did, because women know. But we don't tell men about it, so they don't know. And they make all the laws and stuff. And shape a large part of societal attitudes.

So I think we need to talk about it, which is why things like the everyday sexism project are so good.

I am always boggled that this sort of thing is news to anyone, but having spoken to a few men, if you tell them one minor thing - one minor thing - eg being wanked at on the bus - they are HORRIFIED! And you just think, fuck me, you really have NO IDEA! And meanwhile all the women are going around just knowing this stuff goes on all the time. It's weird.

I have never been prouder of my DH than when he challenged a friend on his blatant everyday sexism and started to research society's attitudes to women off his own bat. I shouldn't feel that way, as it should be a given that he'd do that, but it's actually very rare for a man to take on women's causes, thankfully not unheard of though.

If it's ever to be tackled effectively we need men on board. I know a lot of men who refuse to accept the label misogynist, and claim on some level to be feminist, when the reality couldn't be further from the truth. It's in the changing of perceptions of everyday sexism that the taboos of the abuse and rape slowly slide away and can be tackled more effectively and society might start believing victims more and treating them better.

That said, I wouldn't use this board as a representative sample, people post here when they need help and so of course it makes for very bleak reading, but there are also many many good men out there and I hold on to that fact every day.

I've not really told DH much of it as he'd be really upset

Is there an aspect of as women we have to be strong and cope with this stuff, but we wouldn't want to upset the men by telling them? And of course, we think "OK this is normal" and the blokes are all "OMG you should report it to the police" and you're "What? Don't be so silly" and that never ends happily, that conversation!

Because we're socialised from a young age not to report, not to tell, not to make a fuss about this sort of thing aren't we. At the less serious end of the scale. And at the more serious end of the scale, we're often not supposed to tell because it's all our own fault. And then with DV there are all the added complexities...

Like, I was out with a couple of blokes once and the 3 of us got a bit of a kicking, and their immediate response was to call the police, and it hadn't even occurred to me to do that. Because you just don't, do you. That may just be me obviously! But, I don't know. Are females raised to accept this sort of thing as part of life, and not really "make a fuss" unless it's really serious?

I don't know if there are any stats on who is more likely to report crime?

I wonder if it would correlate with a list of, um, society hierarchy or something.

eg I bet wealthy white men are more likely to report crimes against them than poor black men

I am guessing there! Could be way off the mark.

I agree about what weed says about your motivation for your post, OP. There is a sense of "I'm so shocked that so many men are so awful! Don't think we're all like that, or I would be sad!"

I think you mean well but a more modest and helpful approach might be something like:

I'm so shocked that so many men are so awful! I really want to resolve not to be one of them. As women I would welcome your advice on what you want to see in a man and how not to be misogynistic.

Another thing is, it's not just about violence and controlling behaviour. The sexism in society makes men's lives easier and women's harder in many other ways too. Look at relationship break-ups. So many men announce they are just leaving, off to start a new life with their OW, and have their kids every other weekend. yes they may pay maintenance (though that's far from a given) but they can just opt out of most of the childcare and responsibility. And no one bats an eyelid.

When a woman does that, disapprobation pours down on her. How could she leave her KIDS???!!!

Now I'm not saying anyone should do it, but the difference in how society reacts is remarkable. And that's what lets men get away with it, time after time after time.

I'm not so good when it comes to writing, The main jist of the post was the shock at the scale of the problem. I was raised in a house with 4 women and it was just nature to love and respect you Mother and sisters and felt upset if someone upset them and if I could do nothing to help.

I am the first to admit I am a bit naive and I grossly under-estimated the scale of the problem. I was being hopeful and optimistic that the problem was only a minority. That did antagonise people, I am sorry

I am grateful to the many posters that have furnished me with details about this and through reading the link to everyday sexism. It has increased my understanding and I will not standby or remain silent if I witness it ever again.

Bleakhouse, thanks for coming back and saying that.

I think listening to women and reading about their experiences definitely is a good thing to do.

I think I must be a bit naive as within my circle of friends most of them seem quite happy in their relationships (although I wouldn't know about past relationships). However, one thing I do agree with is that women shoulder the burden of the childcare and domestic duties - it is almost like the "new generation" of men I was expecting to see has not materialised, as was promised when I was a teenager.

My DH is considered amazing by other people's standards because he takes the kids out twice a week and helps a bit around the house but as he points out himself "they are his kids too".

Yes in my experience men are congratulated for doing their bit toward "wife-work", whereas women are roundly criticised for working out of the home. It's all rather grating.

Bleak, you obviously mean well. But please don't expect any cookies for telling women that they are regularly subjected to poor treatment by men

I am glad you are getting more insight into the problem from this thread though