My MIL's obsession...

[aquadoodledo]

It will be almost a year ago now that I spoke out for the first time on Mumsnet about my MIL's clear unacceptable behaviour.

She interfered in all aspects of our lives, criticised all we did, turned up when she liked, took our newborn baby to her own house when she liked, filled her house with baby things on the assumption that she would be looking after her regularly from day 1, even painted a nursery for her etc. It was frightening stuff, especially as I spiralled into very severe PND. To the point I believed my child was not mine, possibly because of her meddling.

Almost 12 months on, I am officially depression free, although still struggling with some anxiety. My DH and I almost separated over it, but I now have his full support and he's seen his mother's true colours- for months I didnt speak to his mother for the sake of getting better and she was told firmly to back off by my DH whilst I recovered. My FIL didnt speak to me for months and other family relations were strained as a result. My DH took our baby to visit them without me for a long time and they did not come round to our own house for long periods of time.

Since a month ago, I made the decision that I really want my Daughter to have a close relationship with her grandparents, like I did and have started allowing MIL to look after her for a couple of hours a week. On our terms of course. Things started well, but I've started to get that horrible 'get away from my child' feeling that I got in the midst of PND.

It has become apparent that MIL is utterly obsessed with our Daughter, she wants to know everything she's been up to everyday and sulks if we miss out some minor detail. When she sees her, I get a sidelong glance and short hello, whilst she holds our child with this weird longing with her eyes closed , kissing her over and over again, exclaiming how much she loves her and misses her. The more she sees her the worse it seems to get.

At a recent family gathering, she told me how upset she was that she couldn't sit and cuddle her the whole time as there were so many people there playing and cuddling her. She is still buying things for her and leaving them at her own house in the hope that one day, she'll spend a lot of time there. She's bought hardly anything for us to use at our house.

I feel so much better since I took control and put up boundries. MIL is so much better than she was, but still I feel completely threatened by the clear obsession and mannerism that she has with my Daughter. It has also been acknowledged as an 'obsession' by other family members. It's difficult to explain in words, but to watch her with DD, it's really weird to see. The more we give her, the more she wants and the more she treads on my toes as her mother, like the comment she made at the family gathering. She had looked after her on a 1:1 basis twice that week and it doesnt appear to have been enough. I'm just waiting for the criticisms to start again, she's already started the 'I used to do this... I used to do that...'
I really want DD to have a close relationship with her, but I can't help but feel maternally threatened by her manner and feel like screaming "back the f$$@ off!"

My fear is that DD will hate me for keeping her way from MIL in years to come. She's every bit the doting, perfect GM on the outside, it took me a long time to see her real motives and my DH almost 40 years! I doubt a child would see it either.

No your DD will not see it if she is exposed to MIL as your MIL will be grooming her - she will be the golden child and your MIL will be intent on destroying your DD relationship with you. Just because it is nice for your DD (doting, perfect) does not mean it is not dangerous - because her (ie MIL) end game is toxic and dysfunctional.

You know she is toxic so you must protect your DD from this obsessive toxic person. Every minute that you expose your DD to MIL grooming will result in DD being conditioned to her way of behaving and she will not see your pov - you will loose her to it.

I think you're right to limit contact and put up very firm boundaries. Your DD can still enjoy your MIL's company in a supervised context for a regular amount of time. I would keep it to 2/3 hours every other week in a neutral venue, in your presence.

I wouldn't aim for 'close', though. That would be a very heavy burden for an older child or teen.

In response to a very complex situation, my DH and I are estranged from his side of the family, meaning that our children don't know their grandparents on that side at all. We are well aware that this could backfire when they're older and seek out their grandparents - who will be dying to give their perspective and say dreadful things about us! But ultimately you have to do what's best for the family, and the child, at the time. Making decisions on the basis of being liked/disliked in years to come is understandable but a little bit selfish IMO. Do what you honestly think is best for your child. If you and your DH are able to maintain firm boundaries together, I suspect you are plenty able to give the limited contact I'm suggesting. (This is what we would have chosen had we been able to prevent the mind games affecting our marriage.)

... PND is the worst. Glad you're feeling better.

Your DD won't hate you. She will accept whatever relationship she has with her grandmother as the norm. Lots of kids don't have a close relationship woth their grandmother. She won't be the odd one out.

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissistic-grandmothers/

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissism-traits/

Thanks for the links on narcissism. I've concluded that I am definitely dealing with a narcissist here. It's useful because it explains why I cant be direct with her and tell her when she's over-stepping the mark, as last time I did this she morphed into the victim and managed to gain a lot of sympathy. It was cleverly done- she used to appear to tread on egg shells around me- asking if she could touch the baby, hold the baby, would it be ok if she sat next to the baby. Over emphasising and over-using the word 'Mummy' in my presence in a patronising way. For a while, she got me and I started feeling guilty about making her feel uncomfortable around me. Then she made one of her derogatory comments as she was playing with DD 'I can't give you that because I'll get told off again.'
And that was that.
I saw what she was really up to. Since I stopped giving any attention to her guilt tripping behaviour and making sure she didnt see DD for atleast 2 weeks each time she did it, it stopped!

Your MIL sounds a little intense but you come across as fraught and jealous of anyone who has relationship with your DD and cannot handle your MIL being close to your DD.

As with all threads, we have only your side of the story

As per normal MN has collectively denounced the MIL as deranged/unstable/narcissistic and therefore should be cast out.

I think you need to step out of yourself a little. Does your MIL look after your DD well? Is she kind and generous and keen to be part of her life?

If the answer to these questions is 'yes' then let her have her time with her DGD. You will always be her mum - no one can take that away from you.

I'm certainly not 'jealous of anyone' who has a relationship with DD, just her. My mother, sisters, SIL, aunties, GGMs all have a lovely relationship.with DD at no cost to my mental health at all.

I wouldn't say that she looks after her well, unfortunately as she becomes preoccupied with other things (she's very easily sidetracked by other focuses.) There was once an accident because of this where DD fell and hit her head, because she'd gotten into a long conversation with a neighbour whilst DD was in the other room.

I would say that she is kind and generous but often with a motive of gaining for herself. Eg she would want to look after DD but in her own house. She wants to buy her things but leave them at her own house (surely if she wanted DD to enjoy the things she buys her, she would let her make the most of enjoying them.)

MIL is a very critical person, judgemental, pries into private business and quite frankly, nothing I do will ever be as brilliant as how she would do it. For these reasons, we keep her at a distance from us all, because the consequence on my mental health is huge. My DD is obviously the most important person in my life, so for her to behave in such an uncomfortable, suffocating manner in relation to her is very difficult to deal with. She's a very dominating woman who saps energy from people, questioning your opinions,.values and strives to replace them with hers. If she was happy to just be a kind, generous, loving GM as you suggest, I'd be very happy for DD to be close to her.

aquadoodledo - dont worry its not you its her. If you have normal happy reciprocal relationships with people throughout your life then YOU are fine.

I have walked in your shoes - I tried jumping through hoops to keep my MIL happy - but then I stood back and realised it was pointless - she had no friends - she offends people, even neighbours keep their distance - she is estranged from 2 of her 3 children - guess who I am married to...? The golden child......so I am seen as the devil incarnate -- taking away her son.

Us DiL are also the biggest threats of all - as we are new into the family and can see that this behaviour is bizarre and volatile with no room for compromise - all of the family have been conditioned to accept/tolerate/tip toe around to avoid an eruption - the narc can see that the DIL now has an inside view and can call time on the emperors new clothes syndrome and expose the nonsense, control and hysterics that is going on.

Look after yourself first - you are vulnerable - I also had pnd and looking back although it was massively better at 1 year - I was not finally clear of it for 2 years - keep away from people, situations and things that upset you.

Do some reading - it will all fall into place. Listen to your gut and act on it.

Take care

Hi OP. I have the same situation too! You are not alone!! When I had my DD unfort I had a stroke and was in hospital for the first few weeks. My MIL who had come down to look after my dc wouldn't let me near my DD when I came out of hospital even though I hadn't bonded with her. First thing in the morning she would take her from my arms. I was completely ambivalent about her and it took a nanny friend to insist she came with us when we went out rather than staying with MIL. My health visitor had huge concerns when she met her and she told me how relieved she was that I recovered fully. I am still so cross a good few years later. I think something strange happens to some women when they become grandmothers and I think their reaction is so instinctive they are probably not even aware of it. We are designed to want to care for a small baby and I think that instinct can be very strong. I try to be unemotional about it all and have a low-key relationship as I think that she did just get carried away. However I have lost the 'trust' and we certainly don't see them very much anymore. They are hardly talking to me now and I am sure not the most popular person to them but I have to look after my own children and also our family unit and do what I think is best. If they continue to not talk to me, then I think we will see them even less. I recommend reading Toxic Inlaws by Susan Forward. Wishing you all the best OP. Stay strong.

I agree with TryHarder in the main. Lots of people can be over bearing / annoying / hard work without having to be labelled as narcissistic - apart from on MN of course

What exactly are you worried about ? What is the end game here? Is your husband damaged in some way from his upbringing ? Is she utter poison and trying to take over as mummy, leaving you child less and cast aside ? Or is she just bloody annoying but overly excited about her first grandchild ? Is she just a rather rude entitled woman who is overcome with how she feels about her grand daughter ?

We have your side of the story and not hers. I get that she gets your back up and there's obviously no love lost between you but unless she is a danger to your daughter and is seeking to do something utterly horrific and harmful, I'd be inclined to just let your DH pop over with your DD and you just keep away from her

I don't think the dramatics about no contact etc on this thread help much.

OP - was it your MIL who interfered with your mortgage?

Having read all the thread I would conclude that your only real course of action going forward Aqua is for all your own family unit to have no contact with your MIL. Your desire for your DD to have a relationship with her grandmother could well be your own undoing because your MIL is not emotionally healthy. It is great that you yourself had a nice relationship with your own grandparents but unfortunately not all grandparents are nice and kind. She was not I would think anything like a good parent to your DH and he after all has had a lifetime of her conditioning to deal with.

Your previous comments re your MIL include these:-
"She has a DD whom she has a strained relationship with due to her constant meddling and interfering. DH thinks that she sees our Daughter as her second chance at having a close bond.

She has a long history of obsessive behaviour, particularly involving money or compensation. She likes to get what she feels she's owed in life, which terrifies me. She took her old boss to the cleaners when he fired her and was paid thousands in compensation, the stress of it even made her mentally ill but she pursued anyway.

She controlled DH's life before I came along and seemed to dominate family events and traditions with what she wanted. I've changed a lot which has rocked the boat... I can definitely imagine her whispering in DD's ear in years to come.

My maternal instinct screams at me to keep DD away from her. Something DH and I had largely put down to PND, but I'm now not so sure. I feel she is craving to take a motherly role in DD's life and I don't like it. When she was first born, I felt like DD's babysitter, but couldnt see the wood for the trees as MIL was so helpful in cooking for us and doing our housework etc. Now I realise that she primarily just wants to meddle in our lives and use my Daughter to make her own miserable life happy".

All the above is very telling Galloping. Suggesting too that her DH pops over to visit with the child is also what this type of disordered of thinking person wants, this plays exactly into their hands. MILs endgame here is to steal the heart and soul of Aqua's child from under her parents very noses. It is indeed hard to accept let alone believe that some people do act like this but they do.

Thankyou for all your comments. I've a lot to consider.
shambles: your situation sounds horrendous. Very sorry for your stroke, your MIL appears to have massively taken advantage of your vulnerability.
Aspie: MIL got involved in a loan that we had to take out to pay for some much needed repairs on our roof. She called the bank as me to try and cancel the loan so that we would take her up on her offer of money instead. Luckily, the bank refused to cancel over the phone but asked me to go into branch which revealed that she had been in touch with them. She was of course trying to 'help' us....

Wow yes I remember your previous thread now, that last financial interference just underlines it IS the MIL who has the problem NOT the OP!

Do what you have to in order to keep well, & to keep your family unit safe & happy.

There doesn't need to be any huge declaration of NC, just slowly restrict contact, be "busy" or having family time, see her at family events & keep your distance.

Yes it was the one I was thinking of.

I really think you need to start keeping your distance again.

It's admirable that you want your DD to have a close relationship with her GP like what you had. But you have to come to the realisation that this is not going to happen unless you are willingly to put up with your MIL as she is.

I do not think you should have to put up with her behaviour at the detriment of yourself but only you can decide what line you want to draw.

Hello. I agree - just be very, very busy. No holidays or extended visits. We also live a reasonable distance away. Who knows she might change her way s when she knows you are serious.

I also found the Relationships section of MN a godsend. My health visitor was also an absolute pillar of support for me and she had gone through something similar when she had her baby. I hope you have someone in RL who can support you. As demonstrated here, I think that unless you have been through this sort of situation, you can't always empathise.

I also found that behind every PIL thread the actual problem was the OH ! My PIL became completely overbearing once we had children and my OH just couldn't understand the problem. They're only trying to help etc.... When I was in hospital they took over with him too so he understood what I was talking about. I was really cross with him for a long time but i understand that it came from a good place. Saying that, he understands that he needs to put my feelings and those of the children first and if he can't do that, well he can move back in with mum and dad!!

I am also looking at counselling as it has been such a horrific time. And also I am looking at my own behaviour and why I didn't listen to my own maternal instincts which were telling me loud and clear that this behaviour was not right. In order to have healthy relationships you need to put up healthy boundaries which I didn't do as I put my own feelings last at the expense of keeping everyone happy.

Anyway, wishing you all the very best for a happy and healthy future OP.

Shambles: Don't blame yourself. To good people, we expect good behaviour from others and when people can't behave appropriately, it can take a while for us to click in. It's because we want them yo behave in the first place, which only proves that we're not enjoying the frustration and detachment from our PILs, we WANT a different story.

I too struggled with DH and can honestly say that I hated him for a good while. It took a long time for him to listen and a lot of counselling to help me articulate my feelings to him. I read Toxic Inlaws and came to realise how conditioned he had been to their way of living and how his lack of relationships before he met me was largely down to his overbearing, dominating mother. Although she used to criticise him for not having a girlfriend!

I can empathise with him now, but I do expect him to put my feelings first and if he doesnt, then like you said, he can go and live with them! My OH still instigates a lot of the close relationship, especially as he watches the football with his Dad every weekend and this creates 'opportunities' shall I say for family lunches and dinners before and after the game. This frustrates me, but I try to be as busy as possible. OH also tends to take our DC to see MIL when I'm not there, so I've started giving him jobs to do instead to prevent this from happening. It doesnt work all the time, we can all but try. Over time, I am sure I'll be able to create enough distance between us, but I think it will have to be done over time rather than sudden NC. Thanks for the support everyone.

OP, your statement I made the decision that I really want my Daughter to have a close relationship with her grandparents, like I did would only really work if your daughter's grandparents were like yours. I'm assuming your grandmother was not batshit? You can't make her be a lovely granny if she is a strange controlling obsessive.

My brother was my grandmother's first grandchild. She was weirdly obsessed with him, and spoiled him (in the true sense - he was absolutely ruined by the sense of entitlement she gave him and he is now a truly dreadful person who I wish dead). Please ensure that your mother in law does not get the opportunity to warp your child.

'Steal the heart and soul of Aquas child '

Bloody hell, talk about dramatics! Was the OPs husband abused as a child? Beaten? Is he a mere soulless wreck of a man? Is this woman a danger to her own grandchild or is she just a huge domineering pain the arse?

I've never read so much shit in my life, all this trying to psychoanalyse a woman you've never met. I'm sure she IS a total nightmare and needs avoiding as far as is possible. But don't label people with a clinical diagnosis when you only have a MN thread to go on.

So, after coming home and finding my inlaws here after explaining very clearly to DH that DC and I needed some space from them things have blown up.

He didn't 'get it' as 'nothing major has happened this time'
And I lost it and told him that MIL's manner creeps me out, that she's poisonous and the thought of DC spending much time around her sends shivers down my spine.

I am now 'pathetic, overly sensitive and hysterical.' I've tried explaining that MIL doesn't need to do huge things wrong like she did after DC was born for me to see the warning signs and feel the need for distance.

He's not happy at all and thought that things were 'getting better' and soon I'd be letting DC be looked after by MIL a couple of hours a week on a regular basis. I laid into him and was pretty nasty in my response. Now feel completely guilty and lost for what to do for the best. I didn't realise that he thought all this would eventually 'blow over' but as far as I'm concerned MIL's attitude and behaviour is pretty permanent!

I've tried confiding in my own Mum because I desperately needed to talk to someone and DH was refusing to speak to me. She has said "poor DH, torn between the 2 of you. She's a pain in the arse but it's him I feel sorry for. Think about his feelings."
My own Mum said this. I feel like such an arsehole :(

Sorry Aqua but his response towards you was really no surprise at all. He will always put them above you and is far more afraid of them than he ever would be of you.

Galloping - clearly you do not fortunately understand the dynamics of a narcissistic family structure. The OP herself has also pointed out that she is confident that she is dealing with a narcissist here.

Your DH will always be in thrall to his parents because he has been conditioned by them to accept all this as normal and also because he has a great deal of fear, obligation and guilt towards them. He is as much a problem as his own overbearing parents are.

I would also talk to someone other than your mother because other relations can become over invested as well. You need an impartial counsellor (BACP for instance are good and do not charge the earth).

But he shouldn't be torn between the two of you should he?

You should be first and fore most.

I don't know if showing him the information you have read about narcs would be useful but there is a thread called stately homes which may help.

And a site called sons of narcissistic mothers might help to.

What would your SIL's opinion be? Could she be a reasonable go between you and your DH?

SIL doesn't say much on the subject, tends to keep her distance, but did once warn me:
"Never ever let her interfere in your finances, it will be the end of your marriage"
She was no doubt speaking from experience. She definitely acknowledges her controllling behaviour (she has experienced it herself) but I recently overheard her telling my FIL what a lovely grandmother she is. It's like her relationship with my DC is an exception to her over-bearing behaviour. As if it's been the making of her. My point of view is completely different.