Is my marriage over? Very long, sorry in advance..

[tinfoilhat]

There is so much that needs to be told, I could go on and on, sorry this will be long, please bear with me...
DH and I have been married 9 yrs, together for 12. He is now 54, 13 yrs older than me. We have 2 DC, 5 and 3.
Basically, the dynamic that worked when we didn't have DC, is a complete fucking nightmare now that we have them.
I have always been the strong partner in the relationship, he was a very laid-back, chilled out, guitar-playing sensitive, arty type, very thoughtful and generous. I was very independent, gutsy and liked being in control. I knew he had not a pot to piss in, had always rented accomodation, he didn't value money because he saw how much more important other things were in life. (How romantic, I thought!) I had just brought my second house. He moved in after we'd been together a year.
Looking back, red flags should have gone up when he started avoiding social situations and family gatherings, only a few months in to our relationship. I just saw it as he was so content with just the two of us.

We were very happy, then during our first pregnancy it all went tits-up.
A few months into the pregnancy he started worrying about his health and a sequence of scans to investigate his concerns were carried out, all clear. He felt bad that this had taken the limelight off of me when it should have been 'my time' but i of course said don't be so silly. He began falling asleep on the sofa and not coming to bed, we hardly ever had sex whilst i was pregnant because he said it didn't seem right, even though I was desperatly horny! I thought he would be the most caring and attentive dad-to-be but he wasn't, would hardly go near the bump and kept 'forgetting' to take pictures of me as I got bigger. The day after i started my maternity leave he got made redundant. He got a reasonable pay off so we thought, let's enjoy the first few months of our baby together and then he'll look for a job. At 8 1/2 months pregnant I had to dash him to A&e as he had what turned out to be Pnemonia. He was bed ridden for two weeks whilst I desperatly tried to do the decorating that had been left to the last minute. (Mr laid-back turned out to be Mr completely incompetent in the house.) Once my due date arrived I had to keep asking him to sleep in our room in case I needed him in the night, not on the sofa. He didn't manage it very often. Baby arrived safely, all very happy. It was intense to say the least us both being home with the baby - we fussed and fretted over him and, i see now, excluded other family members. As my sister has since said 'it was like you both built up this brick wall and no one could get in.' By the time DC1 was a few months old and DH started to look for work, the recession had kicked in and the bottom dropped out of the job market in his field. I went back to work when DC1 was 10months old because of this, when our mutually agreed plan was that i would stay home to bring him up. Just after DC1 was a year old, i found out I was pregnant. (We had done it exactly twice since DC1 was born.) Although we felt very lucky and did want a DC2, the timing because of DH not having a job was awful. Two days after we found out, DH's mum died suddenly, although she had been ill for some time but it wasn't expected. I was fearing greatly for DH's mental health, he was already very low due to the work situation, our relationship was awful and he went on anti-d's. I worked throughout second pregnancy, but took lots of time off because DH frequently couldn't cope, his request, not mine. Eventually I got signed off for two weeks due to DH's stress (not mine!) as he just couldn't deal with things. I felt that, yet again, I couldn't 'enjoy' my pregnancy because his needs had taken over. I felt awful and selfish thinking this way because of all that DH had been through. By now he was avoiding contact with my family, not even coming downstairs to say hello if they came round.
DC2 arrived safely, still no job for DH. Many thoughts that he should have just taken ANY job, but he seemed to talk his way out of why he didn't. DC2 had silent reflux and I found things really tough with the constant crying and feeling guilty that my precious DC1 was so seemingly neglected. When DC2 was a few months old, my very dear friend and work colleague who was like a Mum to me, was diagnosed with lung cancer and died within two weeks. By this time my sisters were virtually non-existent in my life, just doing their duty at birthdays and Christmas. A few months later DH finally picked up a contract for work, things were looking up. Then, when DC2 was 10months old, my Mum died. She had had a major stroke 8 yrs previously and was paralysed and couldn't talk, but she then got a lung disease and deteriorated very quickly within a few weeks. My sisters acted very callously around this time towards me and it became blindingly obvious they didn't give a shit for me any more. Just before my Mum died, I gave my notice in at work.
A few months later DH's contract wasn't renewed and we were back to square one. I hated having him in the house, he sat on the computer in our bedroom looking for work, but came down and distrupted whatever i was trying to do with the kids at the time. For some reason, I felt I had to prove i could manage it all without him and continued to do all the cooking and cleaning (badly!) despite him not being at work.
We had to borrow money from my Dad to pay our mortgage, or we would have lost the house.
Just as we were in utter desperation, DH had his contract taken up again and was made permenant, although on half the wages he had earned before we had DC.
He no longer sees his own two sisters after disagreements with them. He no longer sees my two sisters, refusing to go to family get togethers. He sees this as sticking up for me and how hurt I've been by them, I see it as convenient that he has found an excuse not to see anyone. He will see my Dad and my Aunt, no other family members. He no longer see his friends from where he used to live, just one a couple of times a year. I have made a real effort to make new friends through the DC, i desperately miss socialising and yearn for a night out. DH and I have been out once on our own since we had the DC, to the cinema.
DH has become like a Victor Meldew character, he moans about everything and anything. When he comes in from work it's like a black cloud descends. The only joy he finds in life are the DC, he is a great Dad in that he will play with them and is very creative in this way. He has put on loads of weight and is now classed as obese, I find him repulsive to look at. I have put on about a stone since the DC, but have kept my figure iyswim. I can't remember when we last had sex, could be over a year ago. The thought of him touching me makes me heave. He has turned into a 50's husband - i do all the cleaning, cooking, ironing and looking after DC's, if he makes lunch at the weekend it is with reluctance. I know he works full-time, but the only other thing he does is sort out the broadband or computer if there are any problems. I deal with all the money, bills, car stuff (he doesn't drive), insurances, everything you can think of. We are several thousand pounds in debt because of when he was out of work. We are barely managing on his wage. The house is falling into a complete state around our ears but we can't afford to get someone to do stuff for us and DH just hasn't got the motivation to do any of it,
Weekends are awful. DH is so knackered from work (which he hates) that he doesn't want to do anything, so unless I take the DC out (which I'm always doing throughout the week) they don't get out at the weekend. Occasionally he'll agree to a walk in the forest, but this is invariably cut short because he's lost his patience with the DC. The only way I get time to myself is if I go out of the house, but with no money to spend this is awkward.
I am so fed up with being strong. He says that he doesn't know what he'd do without me, that I've held us all together throughout the problems and he's right, but for once I would like to know that someone is looking out for me, that I can rely on someone, but I can't. Every single fucking time I have needed him to be strong he hasn't, even gets ill when we're about to go on holiday camping so that I end up doing absolutely everything to get ready for it. I cannot remember one time when he's actually stepped up and been a man!
I feel awful for feeling this way about him when he is so obviously suffering from several major life changes so late in life. He says i've always got to be right, that what he thinks doesn't count, but i feel i've lost out on so much (family, socialising) because of the way he is. I've suggested we go to counselling but he has said time and time again that there's no way he's talking to a stranger and we can sort out our problems ourselves, but we never do! We have the same arguements every time! I told him a few years back that we were in trouble and we needed help to sort us out but he wouldn't hear of it, I still thought we could sort it out but now I fear too much has gone unresolved. Im still so fucking angry with him over stuff that happened since our first pregnancy, i just can't let it go!
I feel like life is already over for me, my children are my world and I love every second with them, but i fear for the future.... If DH is like this now, how awful is he going to be in 5 yrs? He's just so negative and horrible about everyone and everything. I don't want to live like a hermit! I want a life!!
But the DC adore him. How can i take that away from them? Plus, we can't even run one household, there's no money for him to move out. I now really resent that everything we have is almost all down to me, how awful of me to think that way.... I have no respect for him, every time I've needed him, he hasn't been up to it.

I'm so sorry, this has all come flooding out, thank you if you've got this far.

The way I see it, OP has made many sacrifices to make her DH's life easier. But it's all one-sided. He thinks things are 'fine as they are' - ie house is fine, exhausted and unhappy OP is fine, no future plan re houses and finances is fine, no support to OP is fine.

Except it isnt fine, is it? I agree if OP just gets a job then she will literally be doing pretty much everything.

Also, about the DC adoring him, which obviously is wonderful, but I think maybe what is normal for them, wouldn't be in other families.

He never takes them out anywhere, partially because he doesn't drive, partially because he says he can't cope with them both whilst out. He will occasionally come out on family trips, maybe once a month on average. The DC think it's normal that their Dad doesn't come to see family with us the majority of the time.
What he does do however is play with them at home, but no messy play at all, and give them whatever they want to eat, so sweets, crisps etc feature heavily and he lets them watch lots of tele.

I know I should be grateful that he plays really well with them, he is brilliant at it, and I sound like a bitch moaning about what he doesn't do with them, but this has been the same story since they were babies.

I think separation and legal advice is the way forward, I'm sorry to say.

YY OP, kids pretty much accept their setup as 'normal' but their dad isn't all that if he can't 'cope' with them.

My stbxh is a shit dad. He never even played with them or took a real interest.

My kids think he's fab. Because he's their dad.

Yes, I worry about that too - if I take on a job as well, I'll just be adding even more to my workload. When we decided to homeschool, I said I'd need a bit of help, maybe the odd meal cooked, a bit of housework help as I'd have lesson-planning to do, days where I'm out all day with the DC, and he said no problem at all. But the help never materialised. I have asked him since about this and his response was along the lines of 'but what do you DO in the house?!' (Housework is erratic for me, the place is often messy, but main areas are clean, we always have clean, ironed clothes and bedding. I see this as natural family life, he sees it as living in a shithole.)

Yes, decluttering. Have been meaning to do more of this for ages but just trying to find the time to do it with DC always there.

It sounds like he wants things to be 'as they are' yet doesn't respect you for it. It sounds like he almost resents you for 'being at home'.

My ex was like this, I was running the whole show plus holding down a demanding job.

Now I do the same but without the miserable, disrespectful, whinging (he resented having to look after his own when I worked at weekends - in fact hated it) man to cook and laundry for.

The irony is that he has them on his own EOW now. And I have a much happier life.

Some fundamental changes are needed for you, OP.

Yes Handywoman, I've often thought that if we separated, I'd actually get a whole weekend to myself every other one!
Thank you for your input, very much appreciated.

Yes, it does feel like he resents me being at home, yet he has also said that he doesn't know how I do it all and that he couldn't do what I do. That's where I think he's so torn and disheartened that as much as he loves our DC, the reality is that family life just doesn't suit him.

Well done for breaking free Handywoman.

Would it be possible to set eg a 6 month deadline or 1 year and suggest mediation maybe too? Really lay it on the line re what changes or what doesn't.

I say this as I worked as legal sec to a divorce lawyer and mostly people did not talk, which I'm not saying you aren't but I think he's just very very complacent and maybe needs a heck of a shakeup. If after that time period and him not tackling eg sending kids to school or learning to drive or declutttering then say you want a separation and then mean it. Say what your needs are be realistic about the achievable ones. And also I think maybe see about his medication and/ or what makes him happy as I think this may have a knockon affect in other areas in his/your life. I could be totally wrong re above but otherwise it's conflict and upheaval all the way.

An alternative is and I know your DH doesn't want this and really I'd just separate properly but could you both live in separate houses or him away for 6 months and reassess?

He really sounds like hard work though and quite possibly should never have been a father though of course as you know hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am amazed he asks what you DO in the house when you are homeschooling his two children all day - the children he can't cope with himself. He sounds hugely entitled. It feels like all he brings you is constraints OP. You say "we" wanted them homeschooled, yet he neither helps educate them himself or gives you the support you ask for to educate them.

I am the sole breadwinner in my family and for my DP this gets very tough, particularly when I'm travelling for work and he has to do everything from the school run to shopping and cleaning to taking DD out to town or the park in the evenings (we only have one DD) but this is what people do.

Your DP makes a very small contribution to your family life in my opinion, meaning it all falls on you. He won't care for the DC, but he won't be the breadwinner with good grace either. Both ends of his stick seem to be the shitty end.

I have an issue with 'He can't cope with the 2 dcs on his own'.
Why? Why is it that it's OK for some men to say that as a get out clause from being a parent?

And yes you are at home, being a teacher to your dcs whilst he works in a job he doesn't like. But then you went back to work after dc1 whilst he was at home, even though you didn't want to. But you did it because you needed the money just as he is doing it now.
You clearly have both being happy with the set up re homeschooling, therefore, I don't think he can use the 'Oh but I am working hard in a job I don't like' line. He agreed to that too.
He also agreed to set up with the HW which makes sense btw, (you ARE working full time, teaching your own dcs instead of a full clas, but you are still working iyswim) so then getting annooyed because you don't do enough HW is

I have to say, I would really look into putting the dcs at school and for you to then find a full time job.
And then see what happens. Are you happy/unhappy? Do you think you can sort most of the issues out? If yes, great. If not, then you will be able to do it wo disrupting the dcs too much, and you will have the financial independence to do so wo too much financial desperation.

Tbh, at some point the line 'If we were separated, you would have to deal with the dcs EOW on your own so get on with it' is something I have repeated a lot to DH when the dcs were little and he was complaining he was struggling to cope.

At the grass roots level, the thought of having sex with him makes you heave, you have no respect for him and almost can't face the next five minutes with him, let alone the five years down the line you mention. No matter whose fault it is you need to start proceedings to separate. You won't be taking the DC away from him as you can co parent separately and life will be better, at least for you and it will probably shake him up to a point where he will have to start shifting for himself or die of starvation!
You WILL manage. Get advice at least as you will feel better for knowing where you stand, what income you would have etc. Life would be better with less income but you having control. Your own mental health must come first as the DC rely upon it! He will be OK. You have told him enough times he is getting on your tits with all the negativity but cannot be bothered to even try and change at all. Start to loosen the bonds. It's a path. Step on it.

That's good advice Superhighfly, a deadline would help us both I think.

Thank you all again for your thoughts and advice.

We have actually spoken this evening about our situation, after giving me the silent treatment for most of the weekend. He tried to do his usual 'this isn't the time to talk about it' but I pressed on and I think we said more than we have in a very long time. Mostly the same old 'but you do this' and 'but you do that' tit for tat crap.... He did say that he can feel I don't give a shit about him anymore. I said I'd been trying to warn him we needed to sort ourselves out for years, he still thinks we've just been dealing with all the crap that's happened and that's why our relationship has suffered. There is truth to that. He said he can't change who he is, I said I don't want him to change who he is, it's how he's reacting to our family life that needs to change and I don't know what else to do to help that. As always, he throws out the line that I'm the one that is always right and I never listen to him, when this is exactly how I feel he is being. Who is right?! Perhaps we're both being arseholes to each other. I listened harder nonetheless.

But I fear he is right, I don't give a shit about him anymore. I was shocked at how cold I felt towards him, how I almost felt nothing. There was definitely a difference in how he was towards me too. Perhaps he's now had enough. I didn't panic at the thought of that, whereas I would've up until 6 or so months ago. Feel very sad that we may have left it too late. Having said that, we agreed that we didn't want to tear the family apart, that changes have to be made. I spoke about the homeschooling, suggested we may need to rethink it if it would make the big picture far better - he feels the same as me, he doesn't want that for them until at least 7. Nothing was resolved, but I guess it was a step in the right direction (wherever that leads to) that we spoke about things.

We left it that we would make sure that once the DC are in bed each night, we sit down at the table and talk, about what's going on, what needs to be done, anything. It was his suggestion and I think it's a good one. It's a start. I'm worried that it's too late, that I've already 'checked out' as someone said upthread, but it doesn't feel right to not try now that the matter has been raised more seriously then it has done before, and I've got all your helpful advice to consider.

I will find out where I stand financially in the meantime.

I guess we've stepped on to that path now but unsure which way it will take us. I will undoubtedly be back for your help again, you have all been so wise and helpful. Thank you.

OP you're welcome. I'm not married but have had relationships.

in 5 years working as legal sec with matrimonial cases the one thing that jumped out a lot was lack of communication or a wish to meet the other half way. when it's just 2 people it's easier as no one else's feelings to take into account, with children it's either kinder to separate or to try to resolve.

maybe you have checked out but at least you've talked now and got both your cards on the table. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

For whatever reason, as many sensible people have said on this thread, your dynamic just doesn't work. He sounds depressed, working in a job he doesn't like, comfort eating and anxious- as well as passive about having his own children (I agree it is ridiculous he hasn't taken them once, I would just go out and leave him to it for an afternoon and take it from there). Equally, you sound angry he's not a great provider (which is a little unfair) and the man you need to help you homeschool and run the house, which it sounds like he will never be. You also sound like you have a huge amount of get up and go and this will be your advantage if and when you do go it alone, as you will be able to get a good job and manage the children, even if it does all seem a bit overwhelming.

I agree with everyone that once you start disliking and feeling disgusted, there is no way back and it would be better to separate, because disgust rarely turns back into love, plus you sound like you are already emotionally separated. I actually think that if you separate, he will have to step up to being a dad and may do it better than people think if he's allowed to get on with it by himself. My husband is often quite tired and so watches movies with the kids, but they make it into a fun time, have popcorn, cuddles, it is a fun activity. If he gets further help for his depression (which he definitely has) then getting time with the children on his own will increase his confidence with them- I have seen this before, men who think they 'can't' have the kids but actually when they have them, they can.

Good luck OP, you are very stuck right now but I think you will find a good way forward for all of you.

Thenapoleanofcrime - I agree that there has been very sensible advice to separate, and that once disgust sets in it rarely can be turned around. My initial post said that the dynamic that worked with just the two of us, doesn't work at all with a family. But, reading through all the advice, I realised that there is plenty wrong with my behaviour too, just as you rightly said.

I feel it's only fair, to me, DH and our DC, that we try to resolve this as best we can, and if we can't, then separation is the obvious way to go. DH certainly seemed different in his response last night, and as agreed, we did sit down and talk more tonight. One thing we agreed on was that we just see each other in our new 'roles' now, we've completely lost us as a couple. The only time we've been out without the children was to the cinema about 5 years ago, so we've agreed to find a way to have a night out together, to try and do it fairly regularly, to see if we can reconnect as a couple. We both agreed we've let ourselves go physically and that that needs addressing for our own sake as well as each other. He said he knows he hasn't been involved with the homeschooling at all, when he said he would, so he has said he will make sure that changes. I understand I've been treating him with nothing short of contempt the past 6 months, which has made him feel worse, so I have to stop that. Most importantly, he suggested making sure we talk each night, without gadgets etc in the way, so we can raise issues before they start festering. This all seems much more positive than it did before.

He is who is he, as I am who I am, and his strengths used to help my weaknesses and my strengths would help his weaknesses. We seem to now resent each other for the very things that attracted us and made us work. Now we realise this, surely there's a chance we can resolve it?

Those of you that have been through similar and broken free are probably reading this and thinking 'it won't bloody change you know!' And maybe it won't, but I need to try now that I have all this brilliant advice.

I certainly wouldn't have had the different perspectives if I hadn't have had help from you all on here, for which I am very grateful.

Thank you Superflyhigh. It was certainly one thing we agreed on last night, that our communication has been appalling for far too long. There is definitely a difference this time - whether the difference will mean we stay together or separate, we shall see. But I certainly feel that things will be resolved one way or another this time.

tinfoilhat - I have been reading various threads on MN relationship board (and others) for ages, your fails into the category I call "She's going to make big progress from now on".

What I mean by that is you don't withhold info when posters are asking questions, you are analysing comments and responding, engaging in conversation this online.

I know you will resolve your issues - one way or another because you decided you want to.

There are plenty of posters who come online to find confirmation for what they think is the only way forward - you have an open mind and that always helps.
LTB is not the only answer to family crisis

In my experience, it's when you aren't afraid to be on your own anymore but still willing to try one last time that things can change.

When you panic at the idea that you might separate, it's all too easy to do anything and everything to keep things quiet. You might say 'If xx doesn't change, I can't carry on.' but it never feels like you mean it. Problems don't get resolved. And so it carries on.

I wish you luck tinfoilhat. I suspect this will not be easy, nor will it be solve quickly. But maybe you will find a way to make it wrong again. Or you might find it can't work anymore and you will be able to leave knowing you have done your best.

I think, if you look back and think about it, every time you two have ever discussed anything he would have invited you to agree to the course of action that benefits him most and inconveniences him least.
Then you think you have had a discussion, but you didn't.

This is why you feel there is no relationship left - because he is selfish.

I'm one that said yes your relationship is dead, but having read your last post I'm definitely not going to say 'it won't bloody change you know'.

What was missing in previous posts was any sense of your dh wanting change or caring about what the situation was doing to you.

If he's genuinely seeing your side of the miserable life you're both living at the moment, rather than just his own perspective, & if any love is left, maybe you can make changes together rather than leaving him behind.

Good luck.

Thank you Antimatter, that is very kind and helpful of you to say, and adds to my confidence that our situation will not continue in the way that it has done. Thank you.