My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

SO sorry to hear about what happened to your niece, Sandcastles. My condolences.

Sorry this is such a HUGE post. A lot has happened on here since I last looked. Firstly, I wanted to say that I totally agree with what Ally said about not being able to look after anyone else (i.e. the kids) unless we look after ourselves. The realisation you had Ally, is exactly what happened to me. I realised that my blood pressure would soar if I spoke to my mum during my pregnancy, so thats why I temporarily broke contact. Also, I had always vowed I would never repeat what happened in my childhood in my own family, and cutting my mother out of my life has been vital to that process.

And that brings me to Musiclover. First of all, Im so pleased that you found this thread, and at least have had the realization( as I call it.) THat really is the first step in all of this. MAny people live their whole lives believing that this kind of thing is normal behaviour. We know it upsets us, and things could be better, but its a different thing to reach the point where you can saythis is wrong and my life could be different. You have come so far, so dont worry about the past now. But please try to swallow your anger when it starts to bubble up. Its not your children that are making you angry- its just that anger is such a natural way for you to react to situations after living with your mum. Its the same for me too, and honestly, since Ive been trying and practising at swallowing my anger, its almost as if my brain is rewiring, and Im starting to feel the anger less and less.

And yes Ally, I have suffered from depression, but until very recently, I honestly thought that almost everyone did. I never realised that not everyone in this world sinks into a deep mood that means they can`t even get out of bed. I never realised that not everyone feels like committing suicide . This has been a revelation.

But I read somewhere that the realisation is not enough to change our behaviour, confronting the parents is not enough, and even insight is not enough. THe only things that can help is if we really want to change. Its handy falling back on our anger and our depression, but Ive always believed its a much harder job to try to be happy after surviving what we have. It means a totaly life upheaval. It means changing how you relate to your family, admitting that you have an anger problem, and depression, and working through it with them. In my case, it means not storming out of the flat when Im pissed off with DH, or having some alcohol to unwind (to get drunk). I really really miss the drinking, but Im teetotal at the moment, and its an easy price to pay for my sanity.(Im 25 but I feel a lot lot older- this whole thing has definitely aged my mind, so I also want to work on being more fun and carefree and frivolous.)

I just wanted to add that there have been a few developments in my life. IVe had a letter from my mother, mentioning that because of her xmas timetable, she wont be able to meet my DD (honestly suits me fine. Am very relieved. Even though it wouldn`t have made a difference if she wanted to, as I had already made a decision not to meet her after her rantings last week at DH).

SEcondly, I called my Dad,( who used to also be physically violent towards me, and before now has denied it. He is also a toxic parent. But I have noticed that he seems to have regretted supporting my mums decision not to attend my wedding. He has been trying. And I realised that he does have <span class="italic">some</span> ability to empathize (toxic parents have an extraordinary lack of empathy). I told him Id cut my mum out of my life, and about the abuse from her in my childhood. I expected him to deny it (like before) or say I was exaggerating. Shockingly, he just listened. I told him I hadnt cut him out of my life yet, but I said I was upset that he allowed her to treat me the way he did. Then he denied that he knew, but when I told him that he HAD known, and had also been physically violent, he seemed to accept that accusation. Then I said, I would have no hesitation in cutting him out of my life too if I were ever treated with no respect again. He said okay... Unlike my mum, his desire to see me and his grandchild was greater than his desire to deny the past or keep trying to control me. We went on to have quite a friendly conversation, and Ill meet him with the baby this Christmas.
I have been very lucky that my dad has accepted his part in the abuse. I think that is very rare. My mother never ever will accept it, and a lot of your mothers and fathers never will. Because remember, they did take us to stately homes...
Okay, essay over now. sorry, this thread is a great therapy corner.

I just keep reading this thread with my jaw dropped. It's amazing how much grace and integrity some of you have found in yourselves after such insecure early experiences.

Someone many posts ago (this thread moves quickly, because it is much-needed and timely!) mentioned encountering a 'ceiling' in their adult life as long as the toxic relationship persisted. I recognised that - I have never had any problems passing exams or excelling at small achievable tasks which posed no threat to me - but I have always felt as though something internal was stopping me from entering any job at the level I am qualified for, or making friends with other women as equals rather than as some sort of cheeky emotionally needy mascot. I have carved out a life in which I don't have to do the things other adults do, not because I am lazy or incapable but because I have a powerful psychological block against building a real adult life for myself - I suppose, put crudely, I needed to be at the centre of my own life, instead of orbiting around my mother, before I could take control of it. Now that I have - it still feels very recent, and it was horrendous, and I cuoldn't have done it without some of the wonderful people on MN - the hard bit starts. I can't blame her all my life. Well, I could, but what would be the point? It is my responsibility now to decide what I want out of the rest of my life and start working towards it. Even in very small ways, like properly unpacking my stuff from boxes and "moving into" our home, emptying the kitchen cupboards and putting the stuff away in a system that made sense to me and I could operate myself - it sounds pathetic, but I really had just been camping out in my own life for years, getting through the days, daydreaming and surviving while dh basically ran things. I am making little bits of progress, but it's slow. I have made a few friends recently whom I really like - not needy co-dependent toxic friendships, but real, respectful friendships with women whose company I enjoy, although it's early days. I've even started tentatively doing a bit of studying, stuff I've always wanted to do, just for my own pleasure. My relationship with the children is much better now that I don't despise myself and now that I feel I actually live in our house.

There are still plenty of times when I get engulfed by this awful drowning feeling though - terrifying flashbacks, suffocating guilt and the feeling of a voice inside me saying "You're kidding yourself - you're on borrowed time. You won't get away with this". It's my responsibility now to stand up to that voice and acknowledge that it isn't her voice, it's a little piece of ME which has internalised my interpretation of her when I was a child - and the solution will come from me, not from blaming or pursuing her. Her role in my life is over.

Sakura, I'm so glad your father has been able to place the future above the past. I know you'll tread carefully, and I hope it works out for you all. He is lucky he has a daughter who has the generosity to give him another chance to have his family in his life.

Sorry this is so long, again. Does anyone else feel this awful howling sadness, when they least expect it? Even after everything I've been through and all the growing and changing I've done, if I had the option to have my mother back, with a guarantee that she would be able to control her demons and not blast my life apart every time she didn't get her way......she said in one of her messages after she got my long letter "I believe you wanted me to be rejected, but not feel rejected". She was right. I didn't want to hurt her or reject her, the most powerful bond we shared was our horror of rejection and the fact that neither of us would ever be capable of rejecting the other. But I snapped inside and I had to get out.

Greensleeves, I think it could have been me who mentioned that I wasnt anywhere near where I should be in the career market, considering my qualifications. Ive always been amazed at other women, who have satisfying, well-paid jobs that I know I could do, but I just dont. When I was studying for my masters, I was panicking about a presentation I had to do and an Indian girl took me aside and gave me a good talking to. Something along the lines of You have everything! What is your problem? I hadnt connected my behaviour to my mum at that point

I can relate to so much that you wrote in your post. I think its a couple of things. I think it could be some inherent desire to sabotage ourselves ( that I noticed in my adolescence with the drinking and sleeping around). And as you said, the fact that we have been running around our mothers like blinkered horses, means that we have been too exhausted to direct any energy into our own lives. Weve just been trying to get by. I can relate to the fact you have chaos and mess in your house- it is <span class="italic">so</span> difficult for me to carry out basic tasks, but these days I force myself to, and afterwards I get a sense of satisfaction. Its getting easier. An amazing point about the rejection part too. I hope I dont pass this onto my daughter, because I am worried I might inadvertantly hurt her, and she wont like me i.e reject me. But Im not like my mother in the sense that I would respect her enough to listen to her side of the story, and hopefully try to make things right.

Sorry Greensleeves, could you tell me in what way you think youve arranged your life so you dont have to live like other adults live. I just want to know if I have done the same. Ive emigrated to a country where I donT speak the language. I have studied languages so I know I can pick it up, and I am picking it up, but of course my husband has to fill out all kinds of paperwork for me and make phone calls for me etc. I`m just wondering to what extend I have done what you describe

In my case, Sakura, I think it's that I've avoided any of the "slings and arrows" part of life. Anything unpredictable or "frightening", like answering the phone without knowing who it is, driving a car, handling bills - until recently I didn't even have a bank account. The jobs I've done have been temporary jobs with no responsibility. I felt bored, humiliated and a failure doing endless temp jobs, but didn't have the confidence to strive for something better - and the longer it went on, the less chance I felt I had of really "making something of myself". I've steadily got better - six years ago, when we moved to Devon before we had the children, I was so depressed/anxious I hid in one room all day while dh was at work - I had to psych myself up to go to the toilet. I wouldn't make myself even a cup of tea before he got home. It's hard to believe it was ever that bad, but it was. I had ME and fibromyalgia when I left university and we muddled through a few terrible years running up debts and generally living a life of drink-and-smoke-fuelled chaos. When we left Oxford I felt as though I was leaving under a huge cloud of shame and disgrace (I did get my degree, but I didn't do as well as I should have. In the first year prelims I got a First and a university prize, I then crashed and burned, did no work, fell out with all my tutors and ended up getting a 2.2) and I think I sort of "banned" myself from enjoying history or literature or doing any studying, or seeing myself as a graduate or someone who might study. I felt I had failed in every way. Being unwell too (and no-one really understands the psychological component of illnesses like ME and fibromyalgia - in my case there was a sort of nervous breakdown too, massive anxiety attacks and paranoia, it was as though all my mental and physical systems just shut down) it was easy to just let dh manage everything and cower in the house, coming out to do temp work when we needed the money. DH walked me to and from work and I didn't make any friends.

It's strange because at school I was regarded as a leader, a strong personality, people were even intimidated by me, and my teachers were always saying I would go far and have a bright future. It just added to the grief when I ran into the sand within a year of leaving school.

I think having the children is what has made the difference. I am gradually becoming responsible and active and outgoing now to a degree that I never would have been if I hadn't had them. It is slow, but I have taken over a lot of the decision-making in our house and I am less afraid of people (although I still can't answer the phone and I still feel sick if the doorbell rings.) I think as I grew into the role of my children's mother I started to outgrow my relationship with my mother like a pair of children's shoes - the two couldn't co-exist, because she wouldn't accept that I needed a degree of adult autonomy in the relationship. There's a German saying which translates to "you cannot feel your chains until you move". I think it sums this up quite well.

Some of this is still very difficult to talk about.

Greensleeves and Sakura, jut wanted to say that I am AMAZED at your perceptions of yourselves, particularly Greenie's "cheeky needy emotional mascot", which made me lol, not because it is funny (it isn't) but because it is so far removed from the perception I have gained of you and Sakura from the outset, which is of two incredibly strong, wise and courageous women who -along with a few others - were the absolute rock that got me through the first few months after my "realization" and the months that I went through the worst on my other thread.

I have always felt that same feeling of being a lesser person when it comes to friends and men, but funnily enough have always been a bit of an achiever careerwise and very motivated in lots of respects (not sure how this has happened), despite my personal life being a bit disasterous at times (I too drank too much and slept around when younger). I guess our mothers differed in some fundamental ways, or maybe I went to more stately homes than you (I'm using that as metaphor for "the good bits" that my mum did) but it is really helpful to know that you also had that combination of abuse with a promise of love held out in between that I had. It seems that that is alomst worse in some respects than just outright abuse because it (for me) has prevented me from really acknowledging the abuse,like you every time I felt anger towards my mum I remembered the stately homes and told myself she was a good mum really. I always knew I hated my stepdad iyswim, because he was consistently abusive, but my relationship with my mum has been completely fused and confused because I was, I guess, so dependent on the bit of love that I did get and wanted more at any cost. Like you and your mum, Greenie, rejection was the big thing for us too.

So so pleased about your dad though Sakura - what an uplifting story. It just shows that some parents DO have the capacity to hear and accept it all.

Not got long to talk, baby may wake any mo! I'm picking up on Greensleeves inability to do things. Again not extreme as you, but I find it hard to litrally unpack and move into house, dh keeps asking and I keep saying I'll do it. Its beyond just being lazy which I guess he thinks it is. I find it so hard to motivate myself to do anything. Like there is no worth to it. And again when I do it I feel good ie big thing for me last week was scrubbing down the decking in our yard and tieing back a bush. Its tiny compared to the hard work my dh does every day whether he's sick or not but to me it was a big achievement.

Its like when I'm slightly under the weather, I make a big do about looking after myself, not going out of house and keeping warm for a few days. I feel as if I have to mother myself as my mother never did it.

Another thing that bugs me is my acedemic side. (can't even spell acedemic!! lol). I was always told I was stupid by my sister. And because I had problems with spellings, maths and telling the time from a clock at the age of 9 my mother gave me fish pills, apparently good for the memory and mind. She told me what they were for and they were like brown horse pills (ie massive like mini bullets). I refused at first and asked that my sister take them as well. She refused in a very scornful way so then mother weakly said 'okay then' then made me take them. The devestation of knowing that your own mother thinks your stupid...making an impact again on me sat typing about it. So ANGRY that she singled me out to take them. My sister kept ontop of the intelligence thing from an early age, whenever watching the news I would ask my dad a question and before he could answer she would jump in with 'Don't you know THAT yet! I knew that at blah age'. I learnt to stop asking. And as I realise now knowledge is sometimes mixed with intelligence. So I ended up looking as stupid as my sister made me, oh and with my delightful mothers help.

ANd they wonder what they did to drive me away...idjits.

Anyway point was (meandered off it for a while there... ) I took up open university, started a foundation science course, started doing really well, was miles ahead. So I stopped. Then by the time I finally siked myself up to start again I was too far behind. This is me every time I do anything. Knitting, sewing, university degrees. I start out well, teachers chuffed with me for enthusiasm, say I'm bright (not top of year tho ;) ) and then like you Greenie I crash and burn. End of story. Failed again. Can't do it, never will do it, useless failure. Typical me, never can do anything right.

And its fecking frustrating. My dh seems to think I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. ANd you know, he could be right, but I have not dared use my brain for a long time. My worst fear is that I will prove my mum and sister correct. I am stupid and won't get a 1st (got to be a 1st anything less is a fail). So best thing is to sit on my a se and do NOTHING.

As you can tell my baby is still asleep! Best get my finger out and actually do something for her. I want to be an achiever for her but I just can't do it. But then as my psychoanyalsist says 'can't or won't. Maybe should add to that 'daren't'?

Anyway, cheered myself up yesterday. Went to asda and walked by all the 'to the best mum in the world' xmas cards. No going thro that dilema this year!

Sorry I've rambled irrelivently and with terrible spellings at times ;) I have a real thing about being stupid. And writing that I need to prove it to myself I'm not (ooh feel emotional at that, way hey!! I feel an emotion!) or I will forever wonder if I'm 'not that bright'. Not to prove it too them, to prove it to me and to show my dd the way forward. If mummy can so can she. If she wants of course...

So much more I want to comment on what you guys have said but its moving so fast now and I just get a limit on my time with dd so hugs to you all!!

Oh and keep up with the stately homes theme, children in ethiopia never got to go to any you know.

xxxx

Wow this thread has moved quickly again.
At least I can read & write without any interuption today, but still not for long as I have to go to work in an hour.

Firstly, Pages: wanted to reply to you last night & say Im so glad you feel you have turned the corner & how much the book has helped you. You now must be proud of yourself!

Secondly, Sakura, Im so glad that making contact with your dad has worked out & that he has realised he was in the wrong & accepted his faults/mistakes. That has got to be such a relief on your part. 'At last' he is being grown up & accepting your side of the story, that must have been rather difficult for him. So glad he's meeting your baby too. How lovely, hope it goes well. Good Luck!

Thirdly, Greensleeves, not forgettin you my dear!
I cant believe we have all encountered similar things happen in our lives. Its so nice for us all to use this thread as therapy.
But Greensleeves, your story has opened my eyes more to the realisation of how badly & differently affected some people can be. I can only symphathise of your situation, it must be frustrating to have the capability to achieve goals but then not be able to meet them.
I understand where you are coming from with unpacking boxes..blah..blah, & you have made me realise just how affected we really are as individuals because of the abuse we have suffered. The difference being, I genually thought i was lazy because I dont do the simplist Mum/housewife things, but I never seem to have the energy to put into anything.

Cant believe just how 'close to home' some of the things you say (sakura, pages) I too slept around from being age 16-22. I was just so desparate to be loved, but because I was, I scared the men away, so another notch on the bedpost again. Spent a long time hating myself for doing that. Hate that I was desparate!

Unlike you on here, I never achieved anything in my life. I didnt get good grades on leaving school, as I always felt then, the way I do now, which is... My concentration level was nil, I really do struggle with it & my memory is just appalling too. This is not since jsut having children either, I have always been the same.

My mum always mde me feel that she was jealous of me & anything I might have achieved in my life. She was very negative about anything. I coudnt even afford to have driving lesson when i was younger as she took the majority of my pitance of a wage. She said I was selfish if i bought new clothes, because she couldnt afford them. She said i rubbed her nose in it !!!
So I never have got round to gettin g my driving done, never had any confidence in myself to do it. When I did have the confidence to do it I jsut found that it was a lot harder to do & my concetration level made it that bit harder too.

Well sorry this has been an essay, we all do them though eh, & ive got to be at work in 20 mins AHHHHHH

Sancastles, still thinking about you & your neiceHope your feeling ok ((hug))

Yes, so much of what is being said is hitting very close to home.
Greensleeves, its good to know that you cant believe you were ever as bad as that. It shows how far you have come. I definitely understand the drowning feeling that you described before. Its as though our little stab at happiness with our DH and children is really just a big fat fake. And like you said, its as if that inner voice is wondering when we are going to be found out and itll be taken away. Because our mums have tried to sabotage our happiness in so many ways over the years, and blast our lives apart, as you say. BUt then I remember Shakespeares "all the worlds a stage, and all the men and women are merely players" or something like that wasnt it? SO I realise its not just me, and I wonder how many other people out there are acting in their lives. They say that everyone is insane to a certain degree, its just that some hide it better than others. I just think of it like that. SOmetimes, it just becomes a little harder to hide it. Im sure there are some horrible people/phsychos out there who keep their cupboards and lives in perfect order, as though it is a reflection of their virtuous character. But we all have a dark side, and the people who pretend they dont must be really off their rockers.
On the other hand, I really do have to try a bit more in the house, and since reflecting on this thread this morning, I came back and put the house properly in order. Its as though, when you label your behaviour it makes it easier to deal with. Nice to know Im not the slack, slovenly person my mother told me I was. I can relate to the driving, Ally. I was amazed at the way other women could drive confidently around. I even failed my bloody <span class="italic">theory</span> test because I was so convinced I couldnt do it. Now I drive around confidently in the country I live in, and other foreigners I meet are amazed I can negotiate the roads here, with the foreign signs and markings. So it was all in my head. Moving to a foreign country, with it all being so different, has helped me because there are fewer ghosts here.

Musiclover, I can relate to the notion that your mum was jealous of you. Jealous of your happiness, youth and vitality I suppose. SOmetimes when I was around the age of 15, that was the only explanation I could come up with for her behaviour. I had no idea about phsychology of course, and I didnt realise her treatment of me was just a reflection of her self-hatred. (But I wouldnt be suprised if there was an element of jealousy in all of this, and thats why the toxic mother affects girls more than boys) Very sad, really. Ally in particular, Im sure your mums behaviour had an element of jealousy to it.

Its evil that everything we went through is still affecting us now. I always waited for the day when I could escape her, and I felt I was biding my time. I wanted to leave at the age of 16, but I realised if I did that I would well and truly f*ck up my life if I had no qualifications. Then I thought it would be when I was 18 and left for uni. Then I thought it would be after I got my degree. THen I thought it would be when I got married. But she was stil at it. It was the wedding thing that made me snap last year.
No real point to this post. Just makes me feel better to get words down, and it feels good to know that others here understand what I`m talking about.

Just spent an hour catching up properly with this thread.

Interesting, the "don't be better than me" message you got Musiclover - do you think that might have been the message your mum gave you too Greenie and Sakura? I think my mum gave me a "be better than me so I can bask in your reflected glory without having to do anything to earn it" message, and I did it. She has always showed off about me but it never made me feel good, just irritated because it was more like she wanted people to be proud of her rather than anything to do with me. She has always been fond of saying "I must have done something right - look at you now" and I have never been able to pinpoint why that has annoyed me so much until now. It is, I think, because she has always been willing to take credit for my successes but never accepted any responsibility for any of my unhappiness or the ways in which I have been held back. My brother feels the same. One of the harsh things me and my brother said in our letter to her was that we got where we are today despite her not because of her. I do feel a bit bad about that and wish I'd phrased it differently but I guess I'm not perfect (as she thinks I should be) and while it wasn't intended to hurt her there was still alot of anger at the time. I would have said exactly the same again but perhaps just phrased it a bit more gently (although when I said this to my brother he said "we spent all day writing it Pages, that WAS the toned down version"!!)

Anyway, as some of you said, that is nothing compared to calling your child a liar or turning your back on them when they need you the most.
because of who we are s not because of her iI suppose there are advantages to being compliant rather than rebelling as I told my boss yesterday, but I think I might be on the verge of a massive rebellion...

Greenie, the overwhelming sadness you describe - I can't say I do feel it right now, but I am in the earlier stages than you so I guess I am just feeling the overwhelming relief of having the burden lifted from my shoulders. I still feel hugely joyful and as Xmas was never a happy time in my house either for similar reasons to you Greenie I feel it can only be better not worse this year. But the sadness may well come later when I start to remember the good bits again. I was just wondering about your older siblings Greenie, who "saw" your mum before you did. Are you still in touch?

Sorry, my penultimate paragraph got a bit muddled...

Btw Ally, you come across as extremely bright and articulate - witty too. So get your stupid sister and mother's comments into your consciousness and out of your head!

Lol Pages, thank you! This thread moves so fast with baby at mo, she's eating her first biscuit! Keeping her occupied while I have a quick type!

Lack of concentration...oh yes, that of a goldfish. I start studying and within I would say 30 seconds I'm have a daydream about getting my degree, with honours, top of year and doing the speech to the audience (family NOT invited naturally) and getting to what you feel Pages, saying I got the degree not because of my mother but despite what she's done. I have not achieved huge amounts but what I do or my sister does is pounced on by my mother, and she starts smarming up to other people to tell them all about what we've done. Her life is so empty its as if she has to fill her own with our lives and achievements. But if anyone elses child achives anything she comes home complaining with a sucked lemon expression on her face about how their mother was boasting about it...not that she does that or anything!!

Also made me laugh Pages at your 'toned down' letter!! Oh the letters I've written...got my psychotherpist to help write mine I got such a strop on trying to write it lol Kept deteriorating and going down to just abusive cutting sarcastic comments, but it was fun...

best go again, baby needs my attention

Hi Pages, only quick visit on here as I have to go to work (night shift) at 10pm!

I have just been on the "Waterstones" website, looking for the book 'Toxic Parents'. There appears to be 2 different ones! One was published in 1991 & is a White in colour, the other was published in 2002 & is Navy. They both appear to have the same Heading atc, but when reading the sypnosis they read slightly different. The white cover book (1991) appeared to mention more about 'sexual abuse'.
I was jsut wondering which book you have & what colour is the cover?
Thanks hun, sorry not had chance to reply to any today, as Ive been so busy doing my "Avon", with my concentration it took my alot longer
Well hope you are all ok
Love to you too Sandcastles ((hug))

Musiclover, mine is a navy blue cover and 2000 edition though first published 1989. Are they both by Dr Susan Forward? There are extracts published online - if you google Toxic Parents and the author you should get it. It might be that it is the same book but different editions with a different marketing blurb?

Musiclover: I have been in therpy for just over 2 years with a psychoanylsist/councellor. At first I read the litrature and its basically understanding your behaviour, why you do things ie I swear loudly and angryly when I drop cutlery. I do this because when I was a kid my dad would yell at me, my mother would angryly shout at me for disturbing my dad, and my sister would make some cutting and sarcastic comment that humiliated me (even more than being yelled at by both parents). So I saw it as unlearning behaviour. However only in the last few weeks has it become clear it is more than that. My therpist is there as a parent figure. He demonstrates how a 'good' parent should be. He asks questions that challenge me such as 'is there anything I do that annoys you?' Its taken me 2 years to give a straight answer. He responded in a postive way and thanked me for my honesty. No getting at me, no spiteful comments, no tears etc. Just a straight bat back again so I didn't feel bad or unhappy about it. The whole point of psychotherpy is 'i'm okay, your okay'. You can get more detail on web. It has taken me 2 years to open up and right now we're on the difficult business of speaking to my 'inner child'. Which, yes, sounds like psychobabble and very american (sorry to americans, your more emotional than us stiff upper lip brits!).

It is very difficult, but like Fox says, you need to stick with a therpist and one your comfy with.

But what is good is that I need a good parent figure to model my behaviour on so I can treat my baby in the right way. And this is one way to do it. Yes I have to pay someone to do it which has been a sticking point for me, but therpists sometimes have had personal experience of abuse and theapy themselves so for them its a personal as well as a professional thing.

I would recommend it. I don't know how I would have got through the past couple of years without my therpist. When the going got tough with my mother and I was having problems separating my feelings from hers speaking to my therpist made it clear that I was being manipulated or my behaviour was encouraging the responses I got from her.

Okay enough now, another day, another novel!

Anyone else doing any other therapy or done therapy that isn't psychotherapy?

I have been in counselling for 6 months (since this whole thing with my family blew up) and it is "integrative" - don't really know much about that approach but it works for me! The therapy, "that book" and you lot between all of you have changed my life! Seriously, without the therapy I know I would never have come this far and be feeling this good about myself and my life, and having other women with similar experiences to validate mine also has been invaluable.

I just feel so great! I have really been feeling like this for a couple of weeks now. I think the hardest part for me in all of it has not been losing my mum (why don't I miss her? I really don't, not sure what's going on there but I only feel relief right now) but a) the guilt at putting myself first before her for once and b) rewriting the family history and coming to terms with the fact that the loving mother (at least the unconditionally loving mother) and the loving family never existed. Several of you have told me that acceptance of that is the first step to recovery and it is really true. Once that all slots into place and you make the adjustment it gets easier - is this how it was for you who are further down the line?

Pages, it is lovely to see you posting like this. I'm so glad you are feeling better. Sometimes we just have to believe that we don't have to like our family unconditionally! It's a fab place to be isn't it!

Dior, been wondering about you too - glad you posted. How are things with you? Am I to assume from your post that you too have found some peace with your situation?

Let's just say that we are trying to have a relationship. Mum seems very worn looking, and I feel bad if it was me that did that to her. Not sure if something else is going on, but I get the impression I affected her more than I realised. For a while I played things very cool and left her to do the ringing wtc. She did, so sort of passed my 'test' as it were! I have now recommenced going round every week to 10 days with ds to see them. We are going over for Xmas day tea too.

So, to cut a long story short, things are gradually improving. My counsellor said it would take time, and it is! However, she is at least making an effort and although I feel bad to have hurt her, I am glad that my comments caused some kind of reaction IYKWIM.

Hi PAges,
Im so pleased that you are still feeling good. I was slightly worried that the high wouldnt last that long, but it seems that there really has been some big shift in your life because you still sound really happy and in control. This thread has brought a lot into the foreground for me too, and I have been living happier and more organised the past week or so too. But I did have that big milestone with my dad, so that must have helped. Thanks everyone for the encouragement on that. I will tread carefully, and I donT mind what the outcome is. Im just so proud of myself for having the courage to say to him what I did. His reaction is less important than my ability to do that.
I wanted to mention about your comment, PAges, about turning out the way you have despite your mum rather than because of her. I wrote the exact same comment to a close friend of mine last year, and she gave me the idea that its okay to not forgive your parents for everything. My mum also loved the phrase Well, I must have done something right.... Now I look at the terrible way she lives her life (drinking, screaming, falling out with everyone etc etc) and look at mine, and I realise she has had zero or only negative influences on the way my life has turned out.
Ally, would you mind giving a few pointers about how your councellor is helping you raise your daughter properly. I have a nearly 3 month old DD now (gorgeous arent they), and I am a little terrified of hurting her in the same way my mum did. Are there any obvious things I should be looking out for? People say to me Ah, when you have your own child you can really appreciate what your mum did for you, canT you?. I think, Nope, now I have my own child, I have just been shocked how my mum could have done what she did, and how little she did for me!

I feel the same Sakura, I find it really hard to understand how she could not have empathised and experienced my emotions with me the way I do with my dc and it is only now that I realise she did not love me in anything like the way I love my dc.

Thanks for your concern and I think you are right that whilst feeling great now it may not last. It is only one corner that I have turned and there will be many more ahead. It is not something that I am going to just get over after all these years. But it is a start.

Still so pleased about your dad though. It is encouraging.

Hi guys, can't believe how much I have missed! Thank you for all your support. DN is getting better, albeit slowly. They have a funeral on Wednesday.

Just want to say that I am reading your posts, but I think it is going to take me a while to comment on the bits I want to. So I will come straight back in from here, ok?

'I just feel so great! I have really been feeling like this for a couple of weeks now' Pages, that's so great! Long may it continue!

Good Morning All

Some good positive reading on here today, how encouraging it feels to read it.

Thanks Pages (about the book) Dh is going to buy it as part of my Xmas Pressie. So glad you are feeling the way you are.

I have thought about you all so much over the weekend & had a really good talk to DH about this thread. At first he was abit sceptical & thought that my past was going to come back again & hurt me. Although I have felt some hurt reading/writing on here, I have felt alot of benefit too. I have woke up to a few realisations.

Im not sure if I mentioned in my earlier posts about my dad (sure I said "well thats another story")... I dont want to drag this out into an essay, but it probably will be, but will try to keep it as brief as poss.

Mum dad split when I was 4, he was physically abusive towards mum & a very big drinker (still is). He never bothered about seeing me or my brother, if we did see him it would be in the pub! I can honestly say I dont really think I had any kind of LOVE feeling towards him, as he is a very cold person. He is a 'do as I say, but not as I do' man. Hypocrite is a very appropraite word for him.
He never paid maintainance for us either, always my grandad having to bail him out (giving him the money) So to tell the truth I really dont have any respect for my dad at all & thinking back to being a child 'I never did'! I could always tell him what I thought too. Bizzare, because I really still cant do this with my mum even now.
My dad thinks about himself only, his beer & is very regimental,very particular to the point of annoyance! I have just tolerated him over the years, but feel now that I cannot tolerate him any longer.
The final straw was one day last week, but before that I had not spoken to him since April!
My grandad (his dad) is very poorly, has diabetes & is 88yrs old. Nana died 9 yrs ago, so he lives alone. Although he is a very independant man, as a family we stick together & all chip in to help him. I go every week, do abit of cleaning, shave him & get him some dinner & do his blood sugar etc. He is such a lovely & very family orrientated man. MY dad never ever goes to see him or even rings him, so the rest of the family feel about him the same as what I do. But recently my grandad has been asking me to get hold of dad & tell him to see him. In april I phoned dad & asked if he would go & see his dad, his reply was very cold & said NO, I asked him why, to which he replied that he didnt have to explain himself to me. I told him to P**s off & put the phone down on him.
My g/dad is still wanting to see him, so I asked DH if he would get intouch with my dad & ask him to go up. It worked, he went to see him as his arm was twisted. So g/dad at least is happy.
My dad has a girlfriend (lets call her P)
I got a phone call the other day, my DS answered the phone (it was dad)but he never said who he was on the phone to my DS, when I said hello, his first words were, P wants to know what day you are all coming at Xmas, I said OH I dont plan my life that far ahead (was shocked at him ringing)I then asked to speak to P myself. I told her I didnt want to play happy families, I cant put a face on for him & would spoilt everyonmes Xmas as I couldnt help myself to tell him how I feel. P is lovely & really pushes my dad to interact with his family, but you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink!

I want to wash my hands of dad, I am not accepting his astute attitude & behaviour anymore. I get no love from him, he doesnt bother about my 2 kids & the hurt is still ongoing.
I never used to feel the hatred toward dad, like I did mum, because I thought 'oh' he never went out of his way to hurt me like mum did, but the truth is he just doesnt care about me, & its time I told him. I really feel that I want to lash some hurt at him.
By the way I am not getting down about this either, its just a feeling of something that I should have done years ago.
Not quite sure how to go about it though. Whether to do it by letter or go & see him & tell him to his face.
Any suggestions?

When I look at Dh & how he is with his kids & the bond of the father/ daughter, I just so would have loved to have felf that way!

Ally-do you pay for your councelling sessions or are you refered by your GP? Been thinking about it alot over the weekend, but really cant wait to get my head stuck in the 'Toxic Parents' book too.

Musiclover, I would definitely read the book before confronting your dad. In the meantime I would get some counselling to get some of the anger out. You mentioned sexual abuse as a child - was it your dad? Sorry if you have told us and I have missed something but as others have said this thread has moved fast...

I think in hindsight the only regret I have about my confrontation of my mum was that I was still angry and said some things in a way that I would now have rephrased a bit into a more "adult to adult" way of speaking. (Having said that I doubt that her reaction would have been any better, and as my counsellor said if you tone it down too much you lose the authenticity, but I could have retained more of the moral highground!).

But I guess what I am trying to say Musiclover is that you need to be prepared. Whatever you think or feel right now, there WILL be repercussions and you need to be prepared and have your support network in place when you do it. Your DH sounds sweet and I agree with you that dealing with this and letting the anger out is not a bad thing, it is a really positive step but it does come at a price of sorts - we don't exist in a vaccuum and there will always be a knock on effect especially in a toxic family.

Counselling on the NHS is likely to be just as effective as private but you may have a long wait and get a limited number of sessions. I know what Ally means about having to pay but the way I look at it is it is 30 odd pounds a week and is making me feel better about myself in a way that new clothes, holidays, hairdo's, etc. were meant to but never did... think about what you spend your money on atm and ask yourself if you are worth spending this on. It is not going to be forever but could be your best ever investment. It could be your best investment for your kids too.