My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Just a quick note, I am reading sporadically, just not posting cause its distracting me from dd at the moment. Agreed with dh to give the net a miss for a week, 3 days down...!

Have not responded...like 'not making it about them' (yet again). I do have misgivings about making contact to tell them to bugger off (in nicer language than that) and to just leave it. So just leaving it (as the easy way out for the moment). Just had a crisis re near panic attack proportions at mothering my dd, I got so thoughtful about parents, stuff on here, ebay (for my sins) and just everything I just had to look at her and she would burst into tears!!! I seemed to be giving her a strained 'not now!' smile that she could see right through. Hence cutting off net time and did Yoga instead. Its worked very well today, no tears!

Thanks for posting all! I'm going off to have a chocolate truffle xmas pudding and cup of tea now, then more yoga (and deep breathing!)

And Hi to toomany...I think narsistic sister is worse...but could be cause she has 8 out of 9 narssist traits and mother only a few...

I am fortunate to have the support of my Oldest Sister. Middle Sister has passed judgement on her too many times, and Older Sister said she'll be politely civil but not emotionally close any more. She lives 200+ miles away from Middle Sister so the circumstances don't rise up very often (see each other maybe once a year). I live 80+/- miles away and see the Problem One every other month or less.
Big boundary time is coming up:
My DH has pet allergies and we have lived pet free for many years. Middle Sister got a puppy a few years ago and since our father had passed away and my DH felt sorry for her aloneness; he let her bring the dog to stay. Granted, her dog is very good and hasn't messed or chewed anything, literally. But she did want him to have run of the house (we close bedroom doors), on the furniture (lots of blanket covers), in the car. (A lot to deep clean after her visits.) However, with baby on the way, DH doesn't want the dog in the house after the baby arrives. I kindly and gently mentioned this to her last August and she was immediately dismissive, and lectured me on how good her dog is with children since there were young kids living with the breeder-so he had been exposed to children the first six weeks of his life, etc. etc. None of which was relevant of course. At that time, I let it drop because she was power feeding (she didn't even ask why) and I'm determined to never raise my voice or get into a p!**ing match with her. But that does not mean the point is over-I just bide my time. Several weeks later I said the new rule again, also quietly and kindly and she actually listened this time. She wanted to know why DH hadn't said anything before (dissertations must be submitted for anything to be validated in Her Mind) and I told her he had, only I had been brushing him off which I couldn't do anymore. That was not really far from the truth, and much more palatable than telling her it was all an Old Maid Pity Party for her. She is obviously comfortable being bossy to me, but I'd like to see her try to boss DH ( not really). The official cutoff date is a holiday weekend in January. I know for a fact that she is close friends with one of her neighbors who takes care of Middle Sister's dog with her own very often, and that person would no doubt be willing to care for her dog at any time. So I mentioned this possibility. But Middle Sister was reflexively dismissive and said in an offended manner that she'd never "use" her friend for that (!) and she'd stay in a bed & breakfast or hotel for short visits or just do day trips. Fine, fine, fine, so I don't do suggestions anymore. This circumstance about the dog is rather pivotal because Middle Sister will want to 'help with the baby' which was fine with me until the NPD went into overdrive. I thought she'd enjoy helping and asked if she could save 'a few days vacation time' for me after due date. I think her perception of my needing her set her off into this power position of seeming to own me and she has been royally decreeing and announcing rather that asking and suggesting ever since. But truth be told, DH and I do not need her at all-we are in our mid 40's, stable marriage and finances,and this is our third. Then she tells (not ask) me she put in for maternity leave at work - some phrase about both parents being deceased may allow a sibling to help. Like we need her intensive supervision. I was speechless and didn't say anything at the time. Later she told me her request was denied, but she insisted the HR rep check into it again. (!) So it doesn't look like it'll come through and maybe who ever mentioned it to her in the first place was pulling her leg (Joke on her? She won't like that...). But she apparently has not made the connection with dog not staying here and she helping with long term leave. It doesn't quite compute. I may end up having to make it compute for her, bluntly and rudely if need be.

I just want to say I know my circumstances are about a sister instead of a mother and the situation is a "lite" issue compared to other's I've read here. If you'd rather I not post on this thread, let me know-I'll be fine with that.
Thanks

Not much time, will check in again soon, but just wanted to say welcome to Toomany and OF COURSE your posting here is welcome. Any narcissistic family member is hard work - and this thread is about families really, not just mothers. I feel in many ways as let down by my siblings as my mother. They are all part of the family system that failed (and has always failed) to support me.

Sounds like your sister (the Problem One) has decided to take over where your parents left off to some degree, Toomany. My older brother used to be a lot like this. I think both my brothers have narcissistic traits inherited from my mother and I did too (it's a family system after all), but I think my older brother and I have done more soul searching and are able to look at ourselves more deeply where my younger brother is still gloriously narcisstic. In any event, the lack of boundaries in the family and dismissiveness of your thoughts and opinions are something I can relate to.

Like your sister, my brother still thinks he is the most important person in the universe (along with his wife, they both support each others' inflated sense of importance). He also ticks more boxes for NPD than my mother, and also - like Sakura's mother - was the golden child so maybe didn't develop any insecurities, need to question himself etc which has contributed to him developing NPD, which I am sure he does have. He is arrogant and aggressive like your mother Sakura, where my mother is much more quietly manipulative - gets everyone else to fight with each other and paints herself as a saint. But he and my mother also support each others' inflated ego and he has married someone just like my mother. Interesting what you say about your mother being sexually abused Sakura, I think my mother has that in her history too, or at least my counsellor suggested once that she sounded like she might.

Another thing I read about NPD is that it can operate in groups (ie my mother encouraged us to believe we as a family were far better and more interesting and important than other families, she was a better mother, we were better/brighter/more well-behaved kids). Only problem then is when any bad feelings emerge (anger, jealously, rage, sadness) that she didn't like (even from herself) they tainted her image of the perfect family and especially herself as the perfect mother (and no doubt my brother as the perfect child) and so had to be projected onto either me or my older brother as the scapegoats.

When she finally turned against my stepdad he became the scapegoat and we all continued to be perfect. She then set up home with another woman and her kids, two families living together, and for a while we were all perfect until she and this woman fell out and then this woman and her kids were scapegoats. I remember the woman leaving and telling me she would rather live anywhere than with my "witch of a mother". I was really suprised and upset to hear my mother being called a witch.

So now, my mother's recent shift to "no-one is to blame" while still refusing to talk about what actually happened is a new move - because I wouldn't accept the blame as I have done in the past - so she is now trying to make us all "perfect" again (including and especially herself).

What astounds me is the amount of sympathy she has managed to get herself for "what a terrible time she went through with men" as if her choices or the way the men behaved when in a relationship with her were nothing to do with her. And yet, we as children are of lesser importance. She offers no validation for what we went through as innocent children - it was not her fault. And even my old schoolfriend (mentioned on an earlier thread) has more sympathy with my mother than me.

toomany, you are more than qualified to be on this thread!
Loads of insights in your last two posts PAges. Its so interesting to see your thoughts about your sibling dynamics. I really wonder where my siblings and myself are in all of this. Im sure I myself have some narcisstic traits, probably caused by low self-esteem and erm, my ridiculous upbringing!. And Im the oldest, so I really hope I dont "step into my mothers shoes". But Id like to think I have a good relationship with my younger siblings. Ill just have to be aware of how I act towards them.
If its not too personal, could you write to say why your therapist thought there could have been sexual abuse in your mothers past. Im really curious about my own mothers past, thats all. There is obviously a <span class="italic">lot</span> of hidden childhood pain in her past, and I dont know where so much of it has come from. Her father was narcisstic for sure, and Sam Vaknin draws a thin line between the narcisstic male and incest and says its all paedophiles are narcissists (but not all narcissists are paedophiles obv)

Im also fascinated about NPD operating in groups (thatll be my MIL`S clan!) Do you have any links

Hi Sakura

The bit about narcissism operating in groups was from books rather than the web, sorry. It was only a small bit at the end of one of the books I have read recently on NPD - mentioned on earlier threads, but I will look it out and quote what it said tomorrow. It struck a chord with me and also brought to mind some of the dialogue about family systems in "Families and How to Survive Them" (something about how "we are all okay" - it's the others that are the problem) and it really got me interested because I have through my life either been outcast and unpopular at times or part of a clique where I became immensely popular and I can see the real pattern there.

In particular I was part of a "crowd" in my 20s who were really quite hip and happening (at least big fish in a small pool!) and if anyone broke away from the group others used to say things like "He/she will be back, no-one can leave" "we are ok, it's just other people that are the problem". I really did think I was the bees knees for getting in with this group, and a friend (who I have had since school who also knew me at that time from a distance but wasn't part of the group) recently told me that she thought we were big headed and thought we were better than anyone else - we did!

When I eventually got bored and made the break from the group(and consequently was outcast by them!) my self-esteem plummeted. It co-incided with me breaking up with a long term boyfriend (one of the group) and him then getting together with my best friend, btw, which is when I started counselling, and read "Women Who Love too much". I guess I got bored of having to be the same as the rest, have the same views, politics, like the same things, just wanted to be an individual - whoooo - big crime! BUT a repetition of the exact same dynamics within my family.

As for your other question Sakura, no secret, I really don't know why my counsellor thought that,. specifically about my mother, but I think he is very intuitive and probably picked up on many things about her. Mainly, it was probably her fear of intimacy (can't have close relationships with anyone, apart from her children who will never criticise her, disagree with her, etc) and also the fact that she can't physically be intimate - doesn't want a relationship with a man, and by her own admissions "is not good at touch" - she admitted that she wasn't ever physically affectionate to me as a child, there was just none of the spontaneous intimacy I have with my kids on a daily basis, hugging, kissing and saying "I love you" - just didn't happen. I got pushed away if I tried and told I was too old for that (as an 8 year old, remember it well). I know her parents were not affectionate to her, and her dad (my grandad) was a bit strange.

Very interesting what you say about paedophiles being narcissists. That makes a lot of sense. They don't see their victims as real people with feelings, but as extensions of their selfish desires? And can't be intimate with adults as they would be too "real" and "separate" and therefore too much of a threat, perhaps?

Also, you said your dad was abusive to your mother, Sakura, which surprised me - I had him pegged as the "victim/enabler", like Allys dad with her mum. Is he as bad as your mum?

Oh it was just awful. He was an enabler as in that he allowed her treat us however she liked--anything to take the attention of her rages away from himself. But at the same time he was awful towards me and my brothers too, physically violent, breaking trust etc.

Once my maternal granparents got angry with me over something ridiculous. One of my brothers wet the bed while we were staying at theirs THey knew my parents would find out. SO when my father came to pick us up, they started informing him of how <span class="italic">I</span> had drove him to it to take the blame away from themselves. In one horrible traumatic hour, I had these three adults blaming a little girl (me) and holding her responsible in an abusive way for something she could never have been responsible for. My dad was so <span class="italic">weak</span> that he was scared to stand up for me, and didnt hesitate to take their side so that at least someone else was taking the blame not him.
The reason I have more patience with him is that of the two, she was worse, compounded by the fact she was my mother (there is a difference to a child- however modern society gets, our mother is always going to be the most important to us)

But then he was narcisstic too. So couldn`t give her what a normal man could. They would argue all evening until about midnight when I had school the next day and it would often end up physical. Once he threw boiling hot tea on her. But she was just as bad as him. She really did wind him up,like she got rid of all of his treasured book collection one day in a "clear out". I think it broke my dad one day to come home and find his carefully selected and organised books had been trashed.
It was just awful listening to them day in day out.

But I think my dad has slightly more humanity to him. He could step and see things from the outside somehow. I think he truly feels guilt (?)

Sorry for the vent!

God, Sakura, it sounds awful! You must be really frightened of anger now? Typical projecting behaviour though, can relate to that. I too got blamed for things that weren't my fault. My mother's way when angry was to curl her lip up in disgust, turn stony silent and reject me. My stepdad was the violent, raging one. His rages were less frequent than his daily bullying and belittling, though (like Ally's mum and sister). It all has a drip drip effect.

And like you, I hold my mother more responsible because she did nothing to stop him. I don't know where her maternal instincts were, and being frightened of him is not good enough. She has always pandered to men, and played her victim role when anything goes wrong. That's why as the girl I came bottom of the pile, because if it wasn't my stepdad (or whatever other man was in her life) it was one of my brothers who she deferred to. That was until my older brother rebelled against her and did things she didn't like, in his teens. He then became the offical family scapegoat.

At the end of the day, the pattern was and still is that my mother is not to be criticised and that anyone but her is to blame when things go wrong. I expect it was just the way her own parents treated her, and I think she couldn't wait to have children so that she could make herself the saint, the perfect one, and weild this power over her own children.

No, Im not frightened of anger. In fact I feel comfortable when Im the target of it (think of past boyfriends here). Its true what the psychologists say- rage and anger feel like "home" to me so Ive been consistantly searching for it. I conciously broke the mould when I met my husband- I met him when I was on the rebound, so I must have been looking for something different in a man than Id found in my ex.

I dont think my experience is in any way worse than yours. The pain we feel at rejection is just the same. And I always had solid things to hate my parents for, whereas you didnt really have anything to grasp at, because you were being manipulated. AS you said, you always thought you and your mother were on the same page until you finally showed your "authentic self". That must have been in many ways, more confusing.

Thanks Sakura. I sometimes have to pinch myself to believe that all this has happened, when my mother and I were so close - on the same page as you say. I have re-read my OP a few times trying to imagine how it would come across if I was a person from a "normal" family, because I have been so used to this sort of behaviour from my mother, and my previous instinct was to stop my mother being angry with me at any cost (ie taking the blame for things that were other peoples fault). But I think the reactions of everyone who responded (apart from one person on the previous thread) have told me all I need to know, that it isn't loving or normal to behave in the manipulative way she does.

It's funny, but something happened at work this week whereby a colleague (who I get on well with and consider a friend) said something that upset me and (I felt) undermined me during a meeting. I confronted her about it afterwards (but was really worried about doing so as I didn't want to lose her friendship) and she got upset and said she hadn't meant it like that and looked really "off" with me.

I worried for the rest of the day and all night that I had upset her and kept trying to think of ways to put things right between us, but didn't know how to, without diminishing and devaluing my own upset iyswim. In the past I would have begged her not to be upset with me. But I decided not to revert to my old desparate "please like me! It was all my fault" type of behaviour.

The next day she texted me and asked if I was okay with her, and sent me a kiss and said that she really hadn't meant to upset me - and she had clearly put my point across to my boss after I left, because he also texted me and reassured me that he had heard what I said and meant. It was so nice to be valued by these people enough for THEM to want to make sure I (capital I!) was ok.

Sorry, a bit of a waffle, but I hope you get what I mean! One of the things I love about DH is that he is the same, he won't let me take the blame (not for very long anyway) for something he knows he is responsible for. If I say sorry, he will say "no, it wasn't your fault, it was me" Whereas my mother (and siblings) ALWAYS make me the wrong one.

I definitely get what you mean because even with all of this blatant overt abuse, I catch myself wondering if I`m over-reacting. I have the images of the abuse vividly in my mind, but they make you believe their world and doubt your own reality. At least, it seems to us as though our needs are definitely secondary to the "family unit"

Now my mother has regressed into alcoholism, and this is going to sound awful, but that was what I grasped onto when I was trying to stand up to her. I couldnT get the abuse into perspective- that I had a right to cut contact based on the abuse alone and lack of remorse. I was still justifying my actions to myself! And I kept thinking "But look, shes an alcoholic now, so that proves shes not completely sane, <span class="italic">doesnT it?. But I still wasnt sure whether my mum was the mad one or if it was me. But her alcoholism again, was something solid I could grasp to show myself that she did indeed have some problems. Perhaps without that clear sign, I would have doubted myself too much to continue to break free of her. Her dependancy on alcohol was a "sign" that I could show others:"see! its <span class="italic">her</span> who has the problem, not me" I was relieved that she was dependant on alcohol because it validated that she had these emotional problems. If she wasnT an alcoholic, like I say, I would have doubted everything too much to ever stand up to her.
So for someone in your case, without any solid outward signs like this, of course it must be so confusing. I understand because my mother has only recently gone down the alcoholic route. The scary thing was that before that she was a slim, capable professional woman (outside the home, of course). I could never have stood up to that. She`s still a professional woman, but the cracks are def beginning to show now in this kind of "functional" alcoholism of hers.

Have other people started to notice, Sakura?

I was thinking this morning that my mother's last postcard to me was quite strange, the bit about DS1 (and my father)being autistic, and I wondered too whether the lie she has kept up all her life has started to take its toll on her mentally. Like your mother, she is a professional, and it occurred to me that I can't be the only person who notices how her "reality" is not to be tampered with, and how abstract some of her comments are.

Either she is getting a bit mad or because I have been spearated from her and the rest of the family for so long I can now see how subtly)off the wall she is.

Had another look yesterday at the NPD link that Warthog gave us, and it really makes sense of so many things about my mother. I really think she has NPD, or a mild (functioning) version of it. Your mother sounds like she is more BPD, Sakura, though of course they say that people who have one usually have traits of another in that "cluster".

Oh, btw, the bit about "group narcissism" was really only a sentence at the end of "Trapped in the Mirror" which said we were raised to think that narcissistic people like our parents were the best people and that nonnarcissists didn't count for much. That struck a chord with me because of the clique that I got in with in my 20s, they/we were all narcissists to some degree or another.

Just been re-reading through the thread and noted that Sakura said (on Tue 23-Jan-07 08:54:31!) that yet another characteristic of NPD is using strange and confusing yardsticks to measure and justify weird or hurtful behaviour. That explains my mother's abstract and irrelevant reference to autism.

Do you remember which site you got that from Sakura?

Quick note again...

Pages, Narcassist family with the 'we're better than others' I still feel this! Even tho I keep having doses of reality with this realising I'm not better than everyone else. I just don't seem to be able to shake it. Must be insecurity...making myself better than I actually deep down feel I am iyswim

And the justifying Sakura...your mother being an alcholic...I so want something to be wrong with my mother so I can say 'SEE!! I told you so!!!' Forever trying to justify cutting my mother out of my life.

And a memory... you know how NPD/BPD people can do the deathbed bit? Me and my mother had a big row ie I was seething with frustration and anger and ended up losing it with her over a sensitive issue. That was in roughly Aug/sept 05, I did not speak to her for a couple of weeks and she came to visit (uninvited) to make things up, basically said enough of what I wanted to hear to keep me near her, however I was still cold with her after this which I was not usually. Then in early Oct she was taken to hospital with 'palpatations' and a pain in her chest. (Her mother died at a young age of a heart attack). My father rung my PIL house to find me as I was not answering my landline or mobile. My MIL came out in a flap as he had told her my mother had been taken in an ambulance (so if it were that urgent, a) why did a doctor check her first? b) why was my father not in ambulance with her? c) so where was the urgency?).
My response was completely unemotional. And to think 'well everyone gets palpatations?!?' She came out of hosp a week later fit as a butchers dog having passed all the tests (ie running machine ect) with flying colours. She then played on this after. ie I don't want to be one of those unfit grandmothers. I've got something to live for now (indicated my growing bump). And she obcessed about her heart friendly diet, would not look at fatty food...paniced if she ate anything fatty etc. My dad admitted he thought her palpatations were just that and it was all OTT. So why did he fuss so?

So much for short post! But I'm so surprised I did not see that 'heart attack' for what it was...just dawned on me the other day. Thought it strange at time. But she was just trying it on to keep me close.

I'll keep reading...gotta go and be mum now!

xxxxxxxxxxx

I know what you mean about feeling narcissistic ally. But come to think about it, I this this has been learned, so it can be unlearned. For example, my mother really did used to believe that our family was unique. Once she even repeated a comment my uncle had made that the family (i.e mothers clan) had been "blessed". It wasn said in a a nice way, but in a way that meant God had chosen their family specifically to bless Erm, yeah- apart from the five divorces on that side. This is interesting-two out of the seven marriages on my mother`s side were opposed by my granparents, and they are the only two marriages to have survived- I wonder why that is?

Anyway, my mother would look down on all kinds of people. Like if we were watching TV where a couple had invited another couple over to dinner, she would say in a mocking tone "Oh, so thats what people do these days, is it?", as if it was beneath her. She`D show off about me to others (whilst abusing me at home) so its no wonder my entire self esteem lies on my achievements and what other people think.

As i say, I think we can unlearn this by just keeping a bit of perspective. PAges, my friends were all a group of narcissists- my situation sounds exactly like yours. We looked down on people who didn`t fit our critera- who seemed too "normal". Looking back I think the entire group had emotional problems related to their parents.

Same with my group, Sakura! All the guys were Peter Pans who hadn't got real love from their mothers and all the girls (including me) were "Wendys" (rescuers) who were also from dysfunctional familes. The parallels are really interesting, aren't they? My mother and stepdad's friends were also a group of narcissists and my mother also showed off about my achievements and crititcised other families (whilst ignoring my stepdad's abuse of me at home).

And I totally acknowledge that I had NPD/BPD traits at that time. LIke you Sakura I was comfortable with anger, and enjoyed yelling at my boyfriend when drunk.

Hi,
The group NPD concept brought to mind the ladies clique at church. Talk about 'holier than thou'-yikes! If I go to church, I choose to remain anonymous. Middle Sis says she doesn't go to church at all for this very reason. (There is some history there regarding our mother, but I'll leave that one alone.) It seems like she'd fit in (that was harsh -sorry); but objectively, she needs to be Queen Bee and there would be too much competition.

Middle Sister brags, all the time, about my dc to her co-workers. And she tells me she brags about them. I don't know what satisfaction she gets or expects from that or if she thinks I should be somehow thankful (owe her gratitude) to her for doing that? (I can not believe her co-workers give a hoot about my children, and I wouldn't expect them to.) Thinking while I write here, I believe she uses my dc for her to jump into the conversations of others with her power validation program of 1.) correction, 2.) one-up, or 3.) last-word. As though SHE is the one to provide the yard-stick for others to measure their children...and she doesn't have children of her own! I imagine the whole office staff collectively rolling their eyes whenever niece and nephew are mentioned.

Also, recent thoughts about Middle Sister believing she is matriarch over me (my family) and my Oldest Sister: It is her ego, etc. and all the stuff on the surface which manufactured the tag 'Matriarch'; but deeper, I think she has a real need to be needed. The power plays (usually through monetary means like expensive gifts, show tickets-she gave Oldest Sis a complete computer system) are used to 'force' us to need her. I do not want to seem ungracious, but the meaning of 'generous to a fault' is defined here for me as a tactic of manipulation. Do you think she needs us to live her Myth of Perfection for her to be validated? Or does she simply want to own us, or more likely, have us owe her- which would put her in the morally more correct or dominate position?

hello, sorry i havent been on here a while, me and dh have split up but i do have some news re my mum.

she came to visit me yesterday, i said to her the kids arent here and she said no ive come to see you, oh-oh i thought, then she started crying and said jen im so sorry, ive been punishing you for things that arent your fault and ive not been supportive of you.

apparently she had been speaking to one of her friends who goes to the nhs mental health centre that i attend and was asking her friend about the nhs and services and she told her friend that she had cut me off and her friend went ballistic at her and said jen is mentally affected with everything that has gone on and you have cut her off? thats the worst thing you could do.

it has obviously made her think, but im not getting my hopes up. i mean im happy that she has said this but at the same time im wary.

toomany, your sister is my MIL! I think they give things so that were obligated to them. Also, I think people with these disorders are very co-dependent, so they need to feel needed. They need to believe that theyre invaluable to the other person and that the other wouldnt be able to cope without them. Its a misplaced sense of responsibility. NOw this would be okay, except they tend to feel <span class="italic">resentment</span> towards the person theyre "helping", and donT understand why theyre not thanked in the way the believe they deserve for "everything they do" for the other. THeyre burning martyrs, basically. They nail themselves to the cross and expect everyone to owe them. Its <span class="italic">all</span> about control. Basically they understand that normal people feel a sense of guilt or obligation if theyre helped out and they play on these human aspects, by exploiting them. They know well feel guilt and obligation, and they use this knowledge. In my MILs case, I had to put these emotions aside in order to protect myself. I had to start behaving "selfishly" in order to preserve my sanity and set some boundaries.

jenk, I really hope that your mother is for real. But call me a cynic but this sounds like what the Americans call a hoover. Which means the person with the personality disorder will do anything to suck you back into their world. Anything at all. And before you know it, youre back there again, <span class="italic">believing</span> in their reality. THe test to see if shes serious is to set some boundaries for yourself, like only phoning at certain times and meetin her at certain times and taking things slowly. If she accepts your conditions, then maybe she has really had a soul-search. If she flips- then nothing`s changed.

Welcome back, Jenk. I am really pleased for you that your mother seems to be apologising and it must feel fantastic to have her admit that she hasnt supported you and has blamed you unfairly (I can't imagine my mother EVER saying these things but they are exactly the things that I would have dreamed of hearing her say - before the funeral of course - I now know and accept now that will never happen and those dreams are dead and buried).

Like Sakura, though, I also have reservations... I am concerned that your mother may be a) weedling her way back into co-dependency with you because you are no longer with DH (and therefore she can have you all to herself again, the way she likes it, and b) coming from a position of superiority because she sees you (because of her friend's words) as weak and needy. This is not the same as apologising to you as an adult to an equal adult.

That was my mother's first tactic during that meeting in September, to try and put me back into the weak, needy child position so that she could feel needed and superior again, and I think my mother had also played on my emotional nature in the past to try and paint me as neurotic/irrational and therefore weak.

I am not sure that I would want her to be "rescuing" me simply because she knew I had mental health issues.

yes i totally agree with you both and im being very wary and careful.

i have set boundaries, i go to see her once a week with the kids for tea and im leaving it at that.

i know what you mean about the rescuing, but i do think she,s changing maybe slightly, theres been no digs, she,s been praising me and telling me positive things, she,s even coming to an NAS course next month cos she wants to help and learn more about the kids who are both ASD, she has NEVER wanted to do that before.

i think her friend telling her off has opened her eyes but im not going to get sucked back in!!!!