My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hello there, just thought I would pop into this thread, hope that's ok. Thanks for pointing it out Ally90. Its a lot of reading to get through.Hugs 2 all.xxx

Still feels a bit weird typing this, as this is the first time I've really talked about what I wasn't supposed 2 talk about.A bit of my story is at 'Am I being unreasonable? : my parents make me feel bad even after all these years!' Sorry don't understand how2 do the link thingy.

In the last 2 wks or so my husband was the first to hear what has 'happened' 2 me within my family.Feeling like i'm on a rollercoaster at the mo.

Reading 'toxic parents' it has really shocked me, lots of it feel very familiar. . Reading it has given me all kinds of 'flashbacks' of incidents, conversations,some that I've told my husband has left him feeling v.shocked,he's said that he feels sorry for me 2 have grown up in the environment I did.Just got 2 part 2.

When he's says this I can remember what now seems like a silly thing, when I was a teenager I always used to say 'oh deary me', 'but I also remember thinking why do I say that so I dropped the 'me' bit, why does this become so significant now? I think I maybe was thinking I shouldn't feel so sorry for myself at the time.I'm going on a bit now, I can feel the hurt just under my skin, does anyone else actually feel like their heart is all knotted up and really hurting?, have 2 stop typing now,sorry.

Hi Dottydog, glad you made it here.

Just reading toxic parents myself for first time and just onto second bit too. I don't feel knotted up as I locked my emotions up for safekeeping when I was a child...don't feel much of anything, ever. Sometimes that's okay, sometimes a darn nuisence when trying to make an emotional breakthro in therapy...there again not sure I want feel anything again.

Can understand the 'shouldn't feel sorry for myself'. Kept being told how good my parents were for providing for me etc food on table, roof over head, many others haven't got that etc etc. So suppose I felt I had to feel grateful I had all that!

I'm also getting flashbacks reading the book. Alcholic father rings a few bells. And the verbal abuse bit.

Hope you are coping okay with all this, must be a shock to read it all in a book. Really puts it in black and white and confirms all your blackest thoughts?

xxx

Hi Dotty,

I used to feel like that regarding the heart knotting up. I have not felt like that, only twice maybe, since I cut contact to them almost 1 1/2 years ago.
It does get better.
You will stop obsessing about them 24/7.
You will grow stronger.
You will start feeling better about yourself.

However you will probably also have days when it feels like everything is falling apart. That is when I come on here, and I have a few days of thinking it all over again and refreshing my memory as to why I have cut them out of my life (I kept the emails that they sent confirming what they think of me. Sad I know but they actually help me moving on, as the more I read them the more convinced I get that I am not the one with "the problem" here).

This thread has been such solace to me recently. Just reading it makes me feel saner about my situation with my parents. Thanks so much everyone.

I've been having a tough time working things out with my parents and cutting ties. Honestly, I feel so much better without them, but it's hard to make the break for good and my family keep urging me to make up.

Ever since having DD 2 years ago, I just cannot countenance having my parents in my life. I'm so scared of letting the pure delight of my DD get sullied by their poison. Just after she was born they did their best to sink their claws in, so I had to cut off contact for long periods and I always feel so much better for it. I'm sick of being bottom of the pile in my family all because I have the balls to tell it like it is- a very very sick abusive family dynamic.

My DH is my saviour, I swear I had never felt a love so constant and nuturing before him. Because of him I can now understand what I was missing all this time- someone who is always on my side. I could never rely on anyone in my family to be there for me.

The family myth is that "You've always been so strong." It's a lie they tell themselves to make them feel better for all the shit they put me through, it didn't matter that an 8 year old was bullied by her 40 year old stepfather because she was strong and could handle it. We could stand by and let it happen, because you could take it.

Just to give you a small example of the recent and continuing cruelty of my mother- Before I had DD mum had told us to buy a few things for the nursery and she would pay us back for them. At the time DH and I were very poor, living off £350 a month, so we really couldn't have afforded them otherwise. We had told her that we'd happily go without if she couldn't afford it, not to worry, but she insisted so we spent a good £70 (big spenders, eh?) on stuff.

3 days after the birth of DD I'm admitted back to the postnatal ward because of problems breastfeeding. I'm exhausted, very upset, enjoying a healthy dose of baby blues and crying all the damn time. DH gets a phone bill whilst I'm in hospital and asks mum to give him the money she owes us to pay it. She tells him off, saying that she can't keep propping us up like this and we need to get it together, really rubbing his nose in it. Kind eh? DH wasn't even going to mention it to me because he didn't want to upset me, but he looked so stricken afterwards that I forced him to tell me. The rest of my time in hospital mum spent undermining my struggle to breastfeed. I managed mixed feeds until 5 1/2 months, but could never breastfeed around my mum, the milk just wouldn't come. How's that for a metaphor?

Honestly, that was pretty tame for my mum. The only reason I get so outraged by that in comparison to all the other, much worse, crap I've endured at her hands is that it directly negatively affected my DD. I feel like a fiercely protective mama wolf about my DD, it's a stark contrast to the neglect I felt from my mother. It makes me realise just what I should've had from my mother.

Sorry, this is rambling...

It's just good to get it out.

Thanks for listening, I need to get to bed!

hello, thought id post my story beware its long!!!

I am the eldest of 4 children raised by an alcoholic father and an emotionally/mentally abusive mother.

my dad was not around much in the earlier days my memories are of him asleep on the couch and us not being allowed to play in the front room or make any noise in case we woke him up, my dad was not a violent man infact the opposite when drunk he was/is charming and will give you the world, my mum however is the opposite.
i feel that i never had a childhood, most of my time was spent trying to decipher her mood and dealing with the taunts/punishments that were passed out daily.
things like "you ruined my white wedding" cos she was pg with me and had to have a quick wedding and "i wanted to put you in the dustbin" when i was a baby.
and "you are fat im cutting back on your food" i was a thin as a rake and developed anorexia in my teens and have had a problem with being overweight for over 10 years, she says "dont bother dieting you never stick to it you are just like me accept yourself"
she would make a big show at our religious meetings of being the perfect wife/mother and it left me very confused.
she would make up things to my dad so that we would get in trouble but my dad didnt like to hit us so she used to stand there and say "go on go on" with a smirk on her face, ive asked her why she did that as i could not watch a man/husband hit my children and she said "to make sure he did the job properly".
she would belittle me in front of friends and at parties she would tell really embaressing stories about me, she would say that i was strong but i didnt understand that because i didnt feel strong.

when i married she completely took my exh,s side of things and would slag me off to him and when we split up i was banned from her house and she phoned him and wrote to him as i had disgraced her-despite me telling her that he had continually cheated and given me VD on 3 seperate occasions-no that must have been me.

when i was pg with ds and a single mum and terrified of labour she would say, you are going to have a terrible labour, when i started bleeding at 20 weeks she wouldnt come to the hospital with me and went shopping instead.
i had PND with ds and i used to beg her for help could she watch him so i could get some sleep but she just used to tell me to get on with it.
ive nevr had a good relationship with my sisters or brother, about 3 years ago one of sisters said to me that i was being emotionally abused by mum and always had been but i didnt want to know.

however i have recently started seeing my sisters and we,ve had a good cry and we phone each other and we are all going out next week-im sooooo pleased about that.

none of us really go around, one of my sisters refuses to have anything to do with them, i have 2 kids with SN but she doesnt come up here to visit them or help me out much-but im not bothered about that TBH.

i do have a relationship with my dad, we email each other and he phones me and i cherish that so much.

i have suffered depression for years and am now having twice weekly counselling to help me through my painfull childhood and i have a wonderful DH and 2 lovely children.
thanks for reading, i know it was long!!!

Glad the thread is helping dizietsma and so glad you have such a lovely DH. I do too, I feel like he fills a hole that has been there all my life, not in a co-dependent way, just that like yours he gives me the affection, love and nurturing that I have always longed for. It's so great that we have managed to attract positive influences in our lives and make things different for our dc.

DS2 has been through a phase of rejecting DH, refusing to kiss him or hug him, even though he talks about his dad all the time when he is not there. (I suspect it might be a jealousy of me and DH type of thing, as DS2 clings to me and says "my mummy" and pushes DH away). But DH has just taken it in his stride and just says "well, I still love you, DS2". Last night DS2 ran up to him and hugged him. I said to DH last night that I relly admired the way he had dealt with it, just being constant and loving to DS2 despite being rejected by him and DH said "Well, why on earth wouldn't I? He's my little boy, I love him, that will never stop no matter what he does, he's just going through a phase and asserting his right not to be loving to me if he doesn't want to, that doesn't mean I would stop loving him". It brought a tear to my eye, as I said to him "my mum would". I would never have dared not to be affectionate towards her, even though in fact she rarely touched or physically showed affection towards me anyway. She was always snubbing me and turning her back on me if I got upset with her, and of course is still doing so to this day (as in the OP).

Jenk, you are amazing to have gone through what you have and come out of it the other end. Your mother is a nightmare, far more directly abusive than mine. She sounds like a true narcissist, completely lacking in empathy - very similar to Sakura, Ally and Sandcastles mothers (to name but a few). I am glad your two dc don't have her in their lives (though like you it is hard having a child with SN and no support).

Interesting how it tends to be the eldest children or daughters. It is my older (eldest) brother and me (eldest daughter) who bore the brunt of it but I feel lucky in fact to have escaped, as I think my younger brothers and sisters will have their own problems, being still caught up in my mother's web of denial and compliance.

Why oh why is the add message box down here? Now I'm going to have to scroll ALL the way up to re read posts!!

dizietsma, glad you posted! I get the 'your strong'...got that from my family, more unspoken, they all leant on me, mum and dad about each other, dad about anything and everything. My sister didn't so much lean as just bully! But what an excuse to use for bullying an 8 yr old

And bit of a resembalance on the mother front with the money...not the same situation but asked for money, and told her I would pay back, she gives money, next week on phone 'when am I getting it back!!!' it was £8k for my flat...like I'm going to russle that up overnight!! I had already agreed with her that I would pay back £50 a month into a hight interest savings account, one she could choose. And then when I had just put house on market, 'when am I getting money back!!'...um when i've sold it!!. But at least my mother wasn't like yours and insisted you buy things then deny it all and they money in such a tight financial situation!!! How could she let you down like that? Not to mention the breastfeeding...why do they pick such a vunrable time?

Jenk1

Saw your post on the other thread...proud you've found the courage to post on here! I got the emotional abuse from my mother and sister, belittling and personal comments. But your mother standing by as you were hit, that takes some callousness...more than that, its bloody unbelieavable! Wonderful that you are getting councelling twice a week, and dh and dc! Hope this really helps as well. It so good to come here and know that people will understand. Whereas mates don't always 'get it'. Let bygones be bygones and all that baloney.

Pages

Your dh is wonderful! What a man!

And its not just the eldest... I'm the youngest. I think its also to do with what your parents are going thro at the time, and if you remind them of anyone. I do suspect I remind my mother of her mother who was abusive to her. In our family dynamic and if you have ever read 'they f*k you up' (recommended) the eldest child tends to get sucked in the deepest, they want most to be like the parent. A second child trys to be different again and go another way (like me) a third child has to find yet another way to be individual to split from the parents (independance wise). Its an intersting subject. There again my dh is the eldest and he got the brunt of being completely ignored, whereas his sister was the angel. But she's the most f*ked up and is still in close cahoots with her mother (to the point they share a washing machine and hoover and live 10 mins apart...and the mother babysits 4 nights as in sleepovers a week for 2 gc). Should we start another thread with our theories? We need a bigger space!

oh and as a side subject...does my mother strike you as a narcissist? I didn't think she was but I just asked my dh and he thinks she has characteristics too...maybe I'm still too close to see it?

Jenk, that should read 'and you HAVE your dh and dc'!

Er, yes she does, Ally. The mickey taking etc that she used to do with your sister - total lack of empathy for you, one of the traits of narcissists. Also the self-absorbed way she behaved after your DD was born, making herself the victim, all about her, etc. I could go on. Maybe look down at your previous posts about her and tick the boxes...?

Interesting the money thing, my mother told me (a couple of years back) that she wished she could help out more with DS1 (who has SN) but unfortunately she lives too far away, then she told me in a separate conversation that she was alright for money at the moment (my gran actually left her 25,000 all of which she kept for herself, nothing given to any of her children, I thought nothing of it at the time, her money after all to do what she wished with) so anyway, one day I asked her of she wanted to contribute to DS1 having some respite care/1:1 at weekends which we pay privately for. She said yes in a very funny way, and I told her to say if she didn't want to, but she said that it was okay. But when it came to it she was clearly not happy with it (the money just didn't materialise) and I stopped asking. She always acts around money like I am trying to take advantage of her, alternated with telling me how well off she is and she will pay... and then I am taking advantage of her again. I have never asked her for anything (apart from this) in my adult life, paid for my own wedding, everything.

Hmm, okay...she ticks at least 3 of the boxes. My sister however, she ticks 8 out of the 9 boxes, don't know about the 9th one for sure. Wow. Always knew my mother was mental. And my sister. Told them too, but would the believe me...

More than anything its the feelings they discribe for the victim and the perception of the NPD person that strike me. All the words I use for my mother and sister.

Better go order a book about it, any you would recommend? Got one by Marie France 'stalking the soul'. Got that one because I get a lot of stalker friends, wanted advice on avoiding the buggers. Bit fed up of turning round and seeing someone dressed the same.

Your mother seems same as mine...the generous offer then the taking back of the offer...and like me you do the 'if your unable to/don't wish to'. For some reason my parents saw it as their duty to help me and my sister, then whinge, moan and shout about it incessently after, but behind your back. Would much rather they just said 'no'. I did even try pointing out to them that I was asking, not telling and I would not be upset or angry if they said no, it was their choice etc etc...words 'head' 'brick wall' and 'banging' spring to mind.

Right, off to do some yoga now to soothe my mind and spirit. I get all off balance if I don't do any regularly.

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html

This is a website re NPD; the details of which I previously gave to Pages.

Thanks Attila, will have a look again.

Actually Ally, I was going to suggest your sister might have those qualities as well. Funny you should say that because my younger brother (whose wife started the whole thing)definitely ticks more boxes than my mother does for NPD.

Just been reading in "Trapped in the Mirror" that the narcissitic parent puts what she feels is unacceptable in herself onto her child, but the child does not realise she is a repository, accepting whatever the parent feeds her as the truth. A child presumes good intentions as the alternative is too frightening to consider.

Also, children of narcissitic parents (which "toxic" parents often are - in that their needs have been allowed overwhelmingly to overshadow those of their children) have three things in common:

1. Paralysing self-doubt
2. confusion about their own identity and goals
3. oversensitivity to the opinions of others

I suffer from, or have suffered from all three, very much so, when younger especially. Anyone else? This is what I mean about being told black is white all my life, and the enmeshment with my mother and her needs.

I don't think I was ever able to see myself as who I was - still struggle with it now, how to describe myself/see myself - and am easily thrown into huge paralysing self-doubt by someone telling me I am something other than what I thought - I believe the other person.

This explains why being called a liar by my family was of such huge importance, because yet again it was my mother defining me in her terms, in a false and negative way, even though my own inner voice was telling me it wasn't true.

Anyone else identify with this?

1. Paralysing self-doubt - me

2. confusion about their own identity and goals - me 3. oversensitivity to the opinions of others - me

It feels slightly better to have that information though. Thanks Pages.

Would it make sense if I said 'i don't know?' to all three? I genuinely don't know. Does that make it self doubt because I doubt my own opinion? Could get confusing this.

Also means that my mother is the one that felt dirty and projected that onto me. Sorry...dirt was her favouriate topic of choice when it came to me...oh and scruffy and untidy and when I didn't do as she wanted I was being mean. Noticed some of this stuff going thro NPD stuff on web. I also notice from other things I put on here before, the only good things about me where aspects of herself ie wrists, fingers, ankles and the 'caring' side of her personality

I also get the black is white bllocks (that bllocks was to family, not to you Pages ) Soooooo confusing! They constantly get you to fight your gut feeling so then you learn not to trust that...and then your stuck!

Going back to the 3 bullet points...much of me feels blank (hmm..this is a narcissist too!)...and what is there is in black and white ie opinions I hold. But if someone says anything different I can change my mind in a flash. Even the therapist asking how I feel is a challenge...when he says 'how are you'...I just don't know! (I could do a Les Dennis impression of Mavis here...but better not )

Sorry guys, need a rant.

Well, just after I posted on here this morning, I picked up my post from the doormat and there was a very short letter from my mother. Apart from the text she sent me after our last meeting, talking about a plant she had given me, there has been no contact.

To put things in context... at our meeting, before she got upset and stomped off, in order to show I was able to empathise with her situation to some degree, I told her that I knew as a mother what it was like to feel guilty - that I felt guilty about DS1 having special needs and often asked myself if it was something I did during my pregnancy. I didn't (and don't now btw!) need "rescuing" about this, I was just trying to illustrate that I knew what it was like to feel guilt about my children and things I might have done wrong. It was a kind of opening for her to admit she had made mistakes and know that I wasn't going to sit in judgement as someone who thought she was perfect.

Her response as you know was to tell me she didn't feel guilty about anything and thought I had had a good upbringing. We then went on to talk about the issue in hand, she flew into a rage, did her heart attack thing, you know all the rest...

The letter I received today said "Pages, you must stop feeling guilty about DS1's difficultes, there is evidence that autism is genetic and there is evidence of it in your father's family. No blame is attached to anyone. Those of us who escaped it are lucky, very lucky".

WTF??? a) DS1 is not autistic. I have never told her or anyone else that he is. He has global developmental delay and she knows that. b) this is yet another piece of info about my dad and his side of the family that I have never heard of before! These bits of info do keep popping up. My dad is dead btw, and can't verify that or otherwise. c) my "guilt" about DS1 was a very tiny bit of our conversation, but this is NOT what the whole thing is about. I can now see her going round the rest of the family and telling them that "Aha, I know now what has gone on, it is Pages and her "guilt" - that is what is at the root of all that has happened, (ie why I "lied" about my SIL and my mother and "made up" that conversation, etc.. etc...)

In exonerating me (for something I didn't do!) she is now happily exonerating herself. No-one is to blame.

So why do I feel that in the guise of being "caring" she is making me the "one with the problem"? - yet AGAIN!!!!

At our meeting I asked her to acknowledge that she had let me carry the burden for her mistakes and to apologise for calling me a liar and getting the family to gang up on me, and this is what I get instead. It's like all the birthdays when I hoped for a particular present, something I really wanted, and got something she would have liked herself instead...

Ah. I thought my mother's "heart attack" was the final one of the toxic parent reactions to confrontation that I had not yet seen. BUT just looked at the book again and realised this one is. It is the variation on the theme of "It's all your fault" which goes along the lines of "Why are you attacking me when your real problem is that your son has special needs and you can't handle it?".

Now I get it.

hey pages thought id say hello helllo!sorry she is at it again did you respond to the letter?did i get it wrong or did you say she pretends to have a heart attack?!

Pages, this is not a critism, but why do you keep trying?

It is heartbreaking for you that she doesn't give you what you want/need & I think this is going to be the pattern for a long time to come.

I feel that you are just feeding her, giving her little bits of ammunition & she is loving it!

You are a far far better person than I, I gave up years ago.

Of course I am not telling you to stop trying with this, we must all do what we feel is right for us. But I do feel you need to stop having any expectations.

Hi Guys, no I am not still trying Sandcastles, just had that meeting with her a couple of weeks ago for teh first time in over a year, mentioned a few posts down, and now she has contacted me. I didn't say I was going to reply! It is obviously designed to draw me back in again. But I really have given up now, I realised at that last meeting that she is never going to change.

Yes, xxx, she did say she thought she was having a heart attack when I didn't respond to her guilt peddling!

My bad, Pages! I thought you had tried since the visit a couple of weeks ago.

Of course, I don't have the right to tell you what to do & wouldn't dream of it. I just have this thing about mothers hurting their daughters.

Hope you are felling OK, hope you are all feeling OK.

I have since found out that my mother asks me sister about me. Have I settled here, etc. I don't think it means she cares, she is just waiting to see me fail, as she has always predicted I will.

"its on your fathers side" My mum brings this up if theres any suggestion that her kids` problems may be connected somehow to their parents.

SOrry PAges, that last post sounded flippant. Im just at your mums recent dig. That your sons developmental delay is connected to you, (because its genetic), but in <span class="italic">no</span> <span class="italic">way</span> connected to her (because its from your fathers side)
I understand your sons not autistic, but its just the way shes construed whats happened, and all in the guise of a "helpful" letter has really bothered me. If you showed to someone, they would think that she was a lovely mother.
I can realy empathise about this. Your latest event has brought back to me the whole "toxic" part. Yes, toxic. I think toxic is a really good word to describe this. Mean, nasty and cruel just don`t catch the essence of the way behave.

Sakura, stop apologising, you have summed up what I was so angry about (in both your posts). "It's on your father's side", FFS! I would love to go back to her and tell her that NPD runs on her side of the family.

And yes, a "helpful" and "sympathetic" letter to anyone else who might see it but a message for me which runs along the lines of "Pages, this whole thing is obviously your fault - you lied about your SIL and me and invented a conversation about us because your DS has autism" (he doesn't actually), "and you feel guilty, but hey, I'm here to tell you that it's your dad's fault not yours." (Ah another scapegoat!!) "So how about you absolve me for everything?"

Oh and don't forget how lucky I am (again)not to have SN myself. Never mind the fact that I am a carer to a child who does. At least they took me to stately homes...

Blimey Pages your toxic Mum certainly knows how to put the knife in doesn't she?.

Hope you shredded her letter immediately.

Quite besides anything else, both of your children are completely fab!