My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

[Pages]

I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

my dp hasnt seen his mum for nearly 6yrs she hasnt even seen her 2 granddaughter shes been told about them but dont want to know
i dont know what i would do without my mum

Exactly mummy2, I donT know how Im managing to live without my mum. Sorry, "a" mum. Its a desperate feeling. But when the day comes when you realise your and your childs happiness depends on your mother being kept away, an awful decision has to be made. Pages, Since doing my "morning pages" in my journal, Im finding the answers of how to live my life. I thing the main element Im looking for is <strong>integrity</strong> which roughly means wholeness. I set out my principles, and try to live by them. I donT put up with treatment from someone if I wouldnT treat others in that way,( whereas before, Id have tried harder to get the person to like me. Thats how Id end up in toxic friendships.) Now I feel, take me or leave me, but this is me. As long as Im not actively hurting someone, I think its fine to speak my mind or not spend time with people. I would never expect people to spend time with me out of obligation, for example.
I set out my goals, to create a good family life for DD, and anything that is at cross purposes with this goal is obviously not in my interest, and in fact means that Im sacrificing something of myself for another persons interest. And if they were a good person, they wouldnt be expecting me to do this <span class="italic">and</span> I wouldnT expect anyone to do things for me that were only in my interest.
As it says in that book, you have to let go of the person you used to be, the "nice" person, the people pleaser. Because being "nice" isn`T really being nice because if your energy is going into pleasing others, then where is the energy left for you and your children (and DH). My mother spend so much energy making herself look good to others, and then would take out all her stresses onto me.

I really believe my MIL felt like your SIL with regards to me needing anyone whod have me. Once my DH told me that hed told her that my mum was ill (because MIL had asked why she wasnT at the wedding). I thought OH thank GOd, shell start being kinder to me now, because she knows IVe got no-one. NO. SHE GOT WORSE!! Because she must have assumed I needed everyone I could get or something. In fact I felt Why on earth would i put up with you, after <span class="italic">everything</span> I have been through in my life? After standing up to my mother, standing up to her was so easy by comparison.

You've summed up exactly how I feel Sakura. (I will have to read that book, I did buy it). Dealing with my SIL is easy by comparison with my mother and if I am not prepared to take that crap from my own family any more I'm buggered if I am going to take it from anyone else. My SIL was very supportive when I told her about my mother but it must be about the only time she's ever listened to me talking about myself for more than 2 minutes without turning the conversation back to herself and I am tired of pandering to her attention seeking behaviour in order, as you say, to make sure I am liked. Some relationships are, as you say, just toxic and (ironically) my mother told me some time ago that she (my SIL) was a narcissist. I think it is precisely because she has seen a shift in the way I am that she has reacted the way she has, as I am now less inclined to react to her outbursts, but I am fed up of playing the role of "mirror" to the narcissits of this world who always seem to be drawn to me. My counsellor said to me "You have tried so hard to be good and yet you still seem to get shouted at" (which is what happened when i was a child of course!). I am going to stop being a people pleaser. I have always felt shortchanged after having spent any time with her and I have my own family to focus on now, as well as other relationships which are not punctuated by these constant upsets.

Just saw my mother today, first time since I sent her my letter over a year ago. She's in 'saint' mode. Was not worst nightmare (ie chased down the street pleading with me, then me and dd getting knocked over in traffic) she just said 'hello ally' in quiet saintlike voice...didn't see her till she said that. Fraid I wasn't the bigger person, big glare then I carried on walking, slightly faster...she didn't follow. That was it. But going thro quite a few emotions. Feel angry she has come to 'my' town. I have stayed away from her's since split. Felt like I had 'won' by her not chasing me down the street?!? Feel withdrawn now, feel 'off' with my dd, makes me realise this is how I felt with dd in first year, and it all is down to my finishing my relationship with my mother and the contact she tried to maintain with me thro my father and letters/cards/postcards/phonecalls. She really did screw me up when I was still a new mum. It makes me realise that by her being in town, she is still the same, not considering the impact on me, just what SHE wants. I think she still thinks I'm mean and spiteful to her...so she's trying to be the bigger person by going religious (foxhole christian as I think they say...she's done it before at times of crisis). I want to shake this feeling off. She was never there when I needed her as a child, she was never interested in me, never took 'no' as an answer, ganged up against me with my sister and humiliated me on a regular basis, critised endlessly (less as an adult as I fought back), made snide comments, been outright hostile the times I moved back home temporarily, then she turns it round by being lovely and welcoming to my friends, then when their out of the room turning on me to do this and that and what will dad say etc, openly welcomed and asked me and dh to stay at their house while we were moving and needed temp accomodation, and this is the mood she's in now, being bloody saintlike to encourage me back in. Then if I went back, would she have changed her need to be spiteful and childish, to laugh at me and refuse to take my 'no' for an answer? Doubt it. She doesn't see a problem in her behaviour, she's just 'silly mummy'. All is always fogiven because 'blood is thicker than water'.

Sorry its a ramble. Just need a catharsis! (That the right way to use that word?) How do you all deal with contact? How do you feel when you have even minor contact ie see them in a crowd? Am I the only one to have such a 'mild' emotionally abusive mother? Many of you have a horrendous time of it, I really feel for you, I've only had an incident once like that and it has stayed with me for over a year. Particually thinking of Greensleeves here, mostly because her story rang alot of bells for me.

Hope your all okay and hanging on in there

xx

NO ally, yours isnt really the mild one here. I think shes one of the worst, not physically violent like mine, but your story about you in the car just after youd had your baby, shaking and scared because she was going at you with all her anger says it all to me. Mine is a "foxhole christian" too(never heard of that phrase before). I usually feel very angry for a while if our paths cross for some reason. I live abroad (maybe subconciously I did this to get away), but my dad will send me something through the post. I didnT understand why Id feel so angry when Id get something from him, but now I realise I felt hunted and hounded, not loved. I will only contact him by e-mail now, and even that upsets me, and triggers something off inside me, like an anger bomb. And this is just my dad, so with my mum of course its much worse. I try to write everything down and that works for me.
I know the feeling of my mother being so nice to my friends. I was amazed at this spectacle. It was like a double insult when I realised she actually knew how to be nice to people. Shed actually just be really kind and lovely to them, but she couldnT manage to be like that with me, even when they were there, so shed just kind of ignore me on the rare occasions friends were around. Then as soon as theyd gone, the spite and hatred towards me resurfaced. As I child I remember never feeling angry by this, just really and truly amazed that my mum knew how to behave as a proper human being.

Thanks Sakura, feel better now after reading that. You know what I did think this morning...she's like a religious convert, being nice no matter what, turning the other cheek yet still extending the hand of friendship. Poor abused mumsy, so nice, so caring, so loving...etc (pass bucket).

I had never heard of foxhole christians...dh told me, happened during the war, soldiers would hide in foxholes away from bullets etc and suddenly turn religious...understandable.

My father did me damage just by coming round. Just by the fact he was still with my mother, and bringing items from her showed that he saw me as the weak point. If he pressured me enough I would repent and go back. He did not respect me, or believe me, or love me enough to acknowledge what had gone on. I am aware the link he has with his life partner is strong, but to let your children be abused and just turn a blind eye, then when they are strong enough to turn away from it, to try to get them back, and when they are at their weakest. Bloody dispicable.

I feel tainted by her being close to me, it felt like she had jumped out of my thoughts onto the pavement...freaked me out, I started going back to the telepathic thing, ie what if I subconciously want her back and my 'sixth sense' told me she would be there, at that time on that day and to take 'that path' that led to her. Then I pulled myself together (had enough of that kind of sh*t when in contact with them) and realised I needed some nappies for my dd, wanted some social contact, and took that path cause it was the quietest and quickest route!

I get the 'hunted and hounded' just how I feel! With the cards and postcards, she must think that I will 'know' I'm loved and wanted still, instead I just feel the above. Esp strong when I was a new mum, to the point of being frightened of going out the door for 5 weeks. Just going to see what the impact of yesterday is now, it always takes days and weeks for the full impact of the contact to be felt...

I understand the niceness too, my mates would say 'oh your mum is so nice!'. One of my oldest one's who had relatively regular contact with my family thought them all weird and my sister just a bully. At the same time it didn't help she had a good relationship with her mother so didn't understand how I could be so rude to mine.

Anyway, that's it, the moment I was dreading is over, if that is all my mother does that's not okay, but its a million times better than my worse case scenario.

Pity you have a nutter of a mil too (thinking to your previous posts), mine is 'nice' but acts younger than her gc. Even my dd at 15mths acts more mature! As for the sil, she's emotionally abusive to our neices. I spend time with them and try to show them the way a nurturning loving mother figure behaves and keeps the boundries. I'm not the best to show that, but I have very good results with them, I give loads of encouragement, praise, involve both in everything, hugs when needed, ask how they feel about things, be firm when any sibling fighting is about to start up and tell them their behaviour is not nice (give long serious stare too, that seems to work!). Their mother shows very little interest in them, yells at the youngest (the most rebellious), tells them that she has important things to do like housework (know that one well) etc etc, both sil and mil worry and grumble like anything, yet as soon as they eldest starts worrying or moaning they tell her to 'not worry' or to 'stop'. Well at least they set a good example for her. I'm just hoping against hope that they can see the vast difference in our parenting skills, the youngest already is openly asking mil questions in front of us why her mum/dad don't spend time with her like we do with our dd. And she looks all wistful when me and dd play together. Never seen mother play with them yet.

Oh god I could go on and on (and have) about those two. See them as like me as a child and its so hard not to be drawn in, so want to rescue them. But they are not me, they are not the same, I don't know their thoughts and feelings, I just have to be a good aunt, but keep a certain 'safe' distance which does not distract me from being a good mother to dd and hope they see how things could be when they are older and have choices.

Before I post my novel, a couple of links
that may be of use to someone on here. The first link 66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:w_aXWf0ICg4J:www.therapeutic-stories.com/articles/abusivewoman.pdf+abusi ve+mother&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
sums up verbally abusive women. The second link www.mtoomey.com/verbalabusers.html has a list that sums up how I felt when I broke all contact. Makes me feel stronger. Hope the links work...i'm a links virgin.

Sakura, just had a thought...maybe your angry when in contact with your dad because your 'pretending' your okay/everything is okay with him when its not? See the link I left to get what I mean...

Ally, yours and Sakura's posts are very timely for me and I'm so glad this thread has been resurrected as I too have been contacted recently and always find it upsets me for a day or so, or at least gets me thinking about the whole thing again, and I really think I am happier without the contact in many ways. I do find these days that it passes quickly and that I am less and less bothered by my family. I have had no contact from my younger siblings, only my mother in the form of the odd card or postcard as has my older brother, which are on the face of it quite innocent, chatting about the weather etc, but also with veiled messages - for instance she sent my brother a birthday card saying she was thinking of him but with it was another card which had a "hidden" message for him which was clearly having a pop at him. I never realised until all this happened quite how snidey she was. She is never openly abusive in the way that some of you describe, but instead she has a "pop" or talks or stirs things up behind your back, and then plays the victim card when you react.

DH said to me the other day that I am the one with the most integrity in my family and it is so ironic that I have been painted as the liar and troublemaker when all I have done is bring things out into the open and try to get some real intimacy going. My mother has so much to answer for and yet, like yours Ally, she is playing the martyr, the saint to everyone and making me the bad one. I have offered 3 times to meet up on neutral territory and let her see her grandchildren without discussion of what's happened and she hasn't taken me up on it, and yet she sends things to the children with messages that imply that she is being hard done by in that she hasn't seen them for well over a year. She is always the victim. She has made sure that every one of my siblings and even some extended family are on her side and aren't in touch with me, and yet blames me for splitting up the family instead of talking about it and trying to put things right.

Having said that it is definitely easier not to be in touch with anyone in the family who is staying "neutral" like your dad Sakura - I too, like you, used to get angry/upset when my sister contacted me even though she was supposedly staying out of it, because my mum would never let anyone stay out of it, and every time my sister contacted me it was effectively my mother talking.

I have this year contacted her a few times and sent pictures of the children and on occasion tried to talk about this whole thing but she won't discuss it. It's like she doesn't know how to actually have a straight debate/discussion because being supposedly loving but then the next minute being snidey and two faced is the only way she has ever done things. My counsellor said she can't discuss it because that would involve real intimacy and she doesn't know how to do that.

The link you gave us Ally is very interesting because I grew up in a family whereby as the only girl (for many years until younger sis came along) I absorbed all the negative emotions for the rest of the family and DH said my mother's treatment of men is very obviously more respectful than it is for women so as the only daughter (or the co-dependant daughter) I didn't benefit from the same level of respect as the rest of the family and she taught my brothers not to respect me either. I said to DH that whatever our faults we care about each others feelings so much that although we will shout and yell and say hurtful things to each other during a row, we always care about putting it right because it is hugely important to us that each other feels happy and loved and each others feelings are respected. DH said he totally respects me and that he knows he can never get away with too much with me because I will draw a line that he can't cross. And yet my family have never respected my feelings about anything.

To some people what happened last summer may not seem important but to me it is huge and fundamental - would you have felt the same? I expressed my hurt at what I believed (wrongly or rightly) had been said about my disabled son, and instead of being comforted and told that they didn't feel that way I was called a liar, and ostracised - what kind of a mother/family does that? It may not be actual verbal abuse (as your link describes Ally) but being outcast in this way has a similar effect. It really does seem to boil down to a complete and utter lack of respect for me and my feelings, so long as my mother (and the rest of them) walk out of it looking ok, it doesn't matter what I think or feel. And that has always been the case, all my life.

Hi Pages

I just typed in 'fallen out with my mother' in google and your discussion popped up and your story is so similar to mine that I made the effort to register so I could post this.

Your mum like mine is an emotional blackmailer. It's something I always knew but only really recently realised when I had my first child (and then effectovely stopped being a child myself). She uses fear, obligation and guilt to get yor compliance (FOG). I read this book about it. There are 4 types and your mum, like mine, is The Sufferer, who does the following:

Peddles guilt in order to get compliance
Does not really tell you clearly how to please her
Pleasing her is in fact impossible because The Sufferer must always be hard done by
Uses every incident as a make or break situation - ie you feel under threat that if you do not comply this time then that will be the end
Divides and rules - using siblings both as allies and as exemplars of good behaviour or explains in laborious detail how they have come into her disfavour
Everyone is in the F.O.G., no one is free of it
Uses the threat of retracting love/support/friendship as a way to keep you on side.
It gets worse when you have your own children and these children are often used as tools to continue the cycle of emotional blackmail

In the end are willingly participating in what is in effect an emotional head game. You need to stop the cycle and I'm afraid see it for what it is (it is about growing up).

I have done this by doing the following:

1. Stay rational and logical at all times
2. Base any decision on your own, and your family's criteria
3. Don't always trust siblings (they are fighting the FOG or complying too and can take opportunities to point score)
4. If you speak to your mum or one of her allies then say 'I realise she is upset (as am I) but I am not playing this game any more. She is welcome to visit or see me (children) at any time. We would be delighted to see her. Keep it calm and on your terms.
5. make sure all messages you give her or her allies are positive. negative ones, ultimatums, stand-offs effectively continue the cycle.

Perhaps in the past when you have made brief stands against her you have eventually faltered and made up with her, feeling like you are finally back in favour and okay. This is only temporary until the spotlight is back on you.

I wish you luck with it, I know I need some luck as well......

JoGH

Hi Pages, I'm glad this thread is here...had no one but dh to talk to yesterday and he's been a bit 'off' about me talking about mother. Think he's disturbed, he says it sounds like i 'want' to be in contact with her...think we all experience that? Don't want the abuse, but still have that urge at times to go back one more time to try and bang it into their heads what they did that was so wrong...

I get the 'innocent' postcards/cards too. They have less ability to upset me, like you Pages, than previously they did, but still get a moment of rage that quiets down almost immediately to frustration, then 'oh whatever!' then get on with my day, and put the postcard/card in loft with rest of stuff. Part of me wants dd to see it when she's older and hopes she thinks 'what a nutter' but the more adult side wants her to see her gm did try to stay in contact (despite it being clearly said that I did not want that). The rest of my family, uncles/aunts/cousins have not ostracised me, but I have them almost, I just don't trust any of them. I feel that anything I say will go back to my family and I will have contact again. I could send an email to say 'if I have contact it is on the understanding that it goes no further'...but I daren't, I just think they would lie and pass info to parents and we'll have contact again. Don't know what to do for best, I'm cutting myself off from society and I don't know how to trust anyone ever again.

I do feel Pages that it is emotional abuse in your family...

Emotional Neglect
Failure to provide emotional support, love, and affection. This includes neglect of the child?s emotional needs and failure to provide psychological care, as needed.

I think that sums up our abuse. Well my mother said she was loving but if loving is what my mother was, I don't want to be loved.

Or...

www.findcounseling.com/journal/child-abuse/emotional-abuse.html

That states emotional abuse, there are a number of definitions. This other website I found is also quite good, its more for teens but I've still found it helpful.

eqi.org/eabuse1.htm

I think your amazing as is any of us to break away from family, the 'norm' of society. Talk about going against the grain. And I think that may be why people cannot see what you did last year as a big thing Pages. I think it was your son that made you strong? You may take abuse for yourself but the straw breaking the donkeys back was involving your son. May be reflecting/mirroring myself onto you there, because for me it was being pg and realising the harm my mothers abuse could to my dd with my stress and blood pressure. For myself I would have taken it and fought back then given in again. Feel free to tell me if I got wrong end of stick in your case.

Oh and before I go, a little game for us all to play. Multiple choice questions...mine starts with...

Your dd has asked for you not to contact her due to issues she has with you which she is not ready to discuss yet, she will contact you when she is ready.

Do you:

a)Respect her decision, no matter how hard it is, and hope that one day she will feel ready to talk about it with you.
b) Turn up, uninvited on dd's doorstep, 2 days after the birth of her first child and get by turns angry and pitiful. And say dd is spiteful. And then say you love her. Then send endless cards and postcards thereafter.

Your eldest child is calling your youngest child names, and she is now nearly in tears.

Do you

a) Intervene. Explain to dd1 why her behaviour is very hurtful. Then get some one to one time with her to work out where the problem is.

b) shout 'stop it', and ignore the hurtful comments dd1 directs at dd2

c) Join in.

And so on...brings parents behaviour into a clearer (and ridiculous at times) perspective

We all have choices, and in the heat of the moment we can all choose the wrong option. But there is such a thing as a genuine apology with acknowledgement of the hurt caused.

There endeth the lesson.

Hope your okay Pages,

Hi Jogh

Glad your here

So nice when another person who's been through the wringer finds this thread! But not nice you've been thro wringer to find us...

When did you have your 'realisation'? Where you realise that your mother is never going to love you as a mother should...I think that sums it up...anyone else got a better way of putting it?

Anyway you may have not had the mother you needed and wanted but you are one of the people strong enough to start to break free. Just so sad you've had to go through the experiences you will have gone thro. More detail if you feel like it?

allyx

This thread is really resonating with me. My mother has schizophrenia, but does not take the meds because of the way they make her feel.

Instead she cuts people out of her life who don't fit her world view. For years I ducked and dived to keep in her good books.

And then when I had ds1, she developed a delusion about me and now refuses to talk to me. I am still on good terms with my father, but my brother takes my mother's side.

On Monday, I was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy. I called my father and asked him to pick up ds1 from nursery while I was in surgery.

He was happy to though it would have been complex for him. In the end I didn't need the surgery so there was no need for my father to worry.

But before my mother knew that it was OK, she said that I had made the whole thing up just to get attention. Then she accused my father of always running to me but never to her (not true).

Appallingly I had almost secretly hoped that me being ill would jolt her out of the crisis and put me back in her good books. She still isn't takling to me.

Life is actually much easier when she isn't around.

So sorry about your eptopic pg Upsidedowncake, and I can really relate to that feeling of not only going through hell, but being told you are lying about it too.

JoGH and Ally you are both spot on ,and yes, Ally, it was absolutely to do with DS1 and him becoming the ignored and disrespected family member that I made a stand this time, but maybe I was just ready to. I think I made excuses for my mother for so long, in part because I really do try and see the best in people. But this time it was just such a shock and so glaringly abusive (as you say, it WAS emotional abuse)towards me, and it dragged up all the times in the past where my feelings had been discounted - that I just snapped.

I like your multiple choice questions, Ally! I had said something very similar to DH the night before:

Your DD is upset because she thinks, from something you said to her, that people in the family find it hard to be round her disabled DS (your grandchild).

Do you:

a) Reassure her that everyone loves her DS and that you are sorry for whatever you said that caused her all this upset

b) Deny that you said it in the first place, call her a liar and get everyone else in the family to gang up on her.

And yes, the answer is....B!!! As I said to DH, that should do it!

I also agree with your response JoGH, and it is really important not to react in the way that they are expecting. I was very angry last year and probably all the years of being passive and compliant led me to swing the other way for a while but I just don't get that upset for that long anymore. It is still so good to talk about it and air my feelings but I am not consumed by the whole thing anymore. Life is a lot more peaceful in general.

Ally, my DH on occasion gets a bit "off" like yours does when the subject comes up, and I think it is for the same reasons. Their natural instinct is to protect us and they know the contact upsets us and so don't want our wounds being reopened.

PS Just read through the links below Ally and I am amazed. I always knew my stepfather was emotionally (as well as physically) abusive but I don't know if it really registered until now that my mother was too.

The list of "General Characteristics of an emotionally abusive mother" is brilliant. My mother did several on that list when I was a child and still is(threatening me with abandonment, laying undeserved blame on me, refusing to apologise, giving me the silent treatment...)

I have printed off the list to remind myself.

Glad they helped Pages :D nice when you can go thro a list and it acknowledges what you suspected is true. Maybe affix your own personal examples underneath?

Hi upsidedowncake, nice to meet you. Sorry to hear of your ectopic pg. Hope you are recovering okay. And very sorry about your mother not being there for you when you really needed her. I don't think it appalling that you hoped your mother would come to you. I have been in situations when I almost wish something bad would happen to get me the attention and love I still need. I tend to squash these thoughts and I think your brave for mentioning it on here. But I think it is only human, and shows just how desparate you are for your mothers attention and love. Just feel very sad that it is in such a situation, no adult child should be made to feel that desparate. Hope that makes sense...

Do you feel up to telling us more about your relationship with your mother as a child/teen/adult? If not now, whenever you feel ready, which may be never. But at least your not alone with this now, we're all here Don't know what I would do without this thread. The more people come, the more you feel what a big change could be coming in society someday.

Pages, glad your dh does that too, and yes that seems to be the case with dh. Just don't feel supported when he does it. But will view it in a different light now!

Liked your questionaire, tempted to send large questionaire to each family member so ridiculous they can't fail to see where they went wrong. But there again...I'm sure they would find a way to misinterprit everything...

Well, today received yet another postcard from my mother saying we should meet up soon. I hardly had time to register how I felt about it before DH said he didn't want his kids seeing her and we have just had a massive row about it.

I can't say I feel particularly excited at the prospect of going to meet her - it will be stressful/emotional and, as I say, life has been calmer and easier without her in it, and I will never go back to how things were. But I do want her to see how utterly beautiful and funny and sweet DS1 and DS2 are and also for them to see her. No discussions, nothing, just a meetup on neutral territory, a chat about nothing, and return home again. Until she is ready to discuss things and apolgise it will never be more than that.

But what DH doesn't seem to get is that I don't want to make a stand any more, issue ultimatums (he wants her to apologise before she can see the kids, and I know that will never happen, as she doesn't respond to ultimatums any better than I do, and I know her far better than she does) or drag this whole thing on and on.

But just because I am too tired or bored of fighting and I don't want a stand off, it doesn't mean I am caving in as DH sees it. That will never happen. But the thing that has bothered me the most out of not seeing her as I think you guys know is that she hasn't seen DS2 since he was a baby and has no idea how wonderful he is.

DH says she doesn't deserve to see them and will badmouth us to "her gang" afterwards but that doesn't matter to me. I feel I have retained my diginty in all this and have almost risen above it and letting her see the kids won't in any way compromise my position. She has never (like some of your mothers) been abusive to them, and it's not like I am planning on leaving her alone with them. But if I did things DH's way, it is almost as if I am still playing the faimily game and I do feel, as JoGH says, that I have gone beyond that and can just be adult about it. I do still feel anger and upset on occasion at the way I have been treated but for the most part I really feel sorry for her.

Hi Pages

I'm sorry that this is dragging on, and causing you heartache and upsetting your and dh's relationship.

My dh gets much more upset on my and ds's behalf than I do - he really struggles with being protective of his family (i.e. us), and indeed horrified by her one one side, with knowing that she is ill, and realising that she can't really help it, on the other. (You could argue that if she really cared, etc etc, she's do something about it, but I think that's the point about paranoid schizophrenia)

In some ways, my mother's rejection hurts worse than that of a lover. And sometimes, I find myself following similar behaviours:

So on Monday with the ectopic, 'Look. I am in hospital. Surely you can't reject (dump) me now.'

And at a family party, I have done the equivalent of putting on my glad rags and dragging along a handsome alternative boyf - ie. showing off my gorgeous son and family to all her favourite relatives.

Like you, I desperately, desperately want her to apologise, start having a relationship with her grandchildren and to become a nice person.

But it sounds like you think there is a possibility that your mum will do this, whereas I don't think there is with mine. Many years ago, I made a decision to try and stop expecting her to act in the way I would want her to behave, but I still hope.

What you are struggling with is really horrible, and the constant pick-pick-pick of the scab with your mum trying to get in touch can't help. It's so hard to know whether to continue to try and forge the relationship or to let it be.

Pages, if you decide you want to improve the relationship and meet on neutral territory, I think you will have made a very brave decision and I don't think you will be caving in at all. Indeed, I don't think expressions like 'caving in' are helpful.

But equally, if you decide to let it be, that is OK too. Thinking of you.

Pages

You are doing the right thing. Rise above it, don't engage in the emotional game. Maintain a position of integrity and maturity. Then it is her loss not yours. But make sure you counter any bad mouthing of you with positive statements about your willingness to meet and how you would be delighted for her to see the children. In the end, reason will prevail and you need to be able to say I tried but she didn't. Protect your emotions at all times and be civil. Explain all this to dh as best you can.

My mum hates it when I'm like this as it only emphasises her irrationality more and she has even said I'm not talking to her like I'm her child and she's my mother anymore. I'm not because I've grown up and I'm talking to her like she is a rational adult. Her problem if she does not behave like one.

I think you have worked through so many issues that you are now able to take this course of action.

I recently was with my m-i-l when she suddenly had a stroke and was with her in the last days of her life and when she died. It was a terrible experience. My mother was not sympathetic mainly because she could not tolerate the idea of hearing about how someone else had suffered that was not about her own suffering (which of course is non-existent). Martyrs/victims don't really do sympathy/empathy.

It was after this experience of dying that I realised just how cruel and cold my mum really was and that's when I grew up.

JoGH

Thanks guys. DH and I have been fine and not discussed it today. I do understand how he feels but I do feel he is overreacting a bit. He is very protective of DS1, and still believes that not only my SIL but my mother and the rest of the family find his special needs "embarrassing" (because of what my SIL said, and because they have all stuck by her - they are of one mind on that subject as far as he is concerned). That is the issue for him, whereas as far as I am concerned what was or wasn't said about DS1 is not really the issue anymore, it has gone beyond that and is about the way that I was treated when I dared to confront the situation openly.

DH believes my mother will see us and then go away and badmouth DS1 which I don't think is really likely to be the case. I do believe my mum loves DS1 and probably me too but she is just too self-righteous and self-absorbed to do the right thing here. But even if she does, I don't actually care because like JoGH, I have worked through things enough to have risen above the games, and I honestly believe I can see her and be the adult, just let her see the kids and, as you say JoGH, walk away with diginty and self-respect.

Ironically my MIL too has had very similar health difficulties to yours JoGH and I too am very close to her, and I think that may have been one of the problems with my mum, a bit of jealousy that I was paying my MIL more attention than her.

My MIL is now seriously ill and it has not in any way made me warm to the "life is too short" crowd and go running back to my mum. It has, on the contrary, as for you JoGH, emphasised the difference between them. Hell would have to have frozen over before my MIL would have chosen to lose contact with any of her children or grandchildren, and this too has made me realise how cruel and cold my mum is, or can be.

But that is, as you say, her loss. I really do feel that. She has cut off her nose to spite her face, and I just don't feel the need to push the knife in. Mixing my metaphors I know... but I hope in time DH will realise that I am not caving in - I have just moved on enough to be able to do this, for her, for the kids... and for me, cos they are smashers and I want to show them off!!!!!

And yes, whoever (UpsideDownCake?) said that I still believe she might change, I guess that is true. It doesn't matter if she doesn't, I have not lost any sleep over her or the rest of the family for a long time. But I suppose I want to make it easier for her if she does feel she wants to say sorry, whereas giving ultimatums will just perpetuate the games. I think DH and older brother both think I am making it too easy for her but I guess you also have to think about what you want the outcome to be, and while I don't really mind not having her in my life (It IS easier) I still prefer not to feel I am at war with anyone...

Pages, sorry, I wrote a message to you yesterday but then the computer just shut down! Ill try again later, when the babys having her nap.

Hi,
If you feel strong enough to do this then I just want to say good luck, and just remind you to rely on your inner strengh when you are dealing with her.
Ill write my experience and what I think would happen if I met my parents again. I dont want to put you off, but please dont hold out any hopes for your mum. Unless, she is completely different to my mum, and it sounds like she is actually more reasonable, because she has validated your experiences to some extent (like when she said she never hugged you) I dont know when (if ever) Ill be able to reach the point when I can do what you are about to. I have no strong desire any longer for my mother to see my baby, but I think its good that you still have that inside ou. When I saw my dad at Christmas (just my dad, wasnT half as abusive as her) I thought I was doing okay, then one day in the car I felt an explosion of anger welling up inside of me. I hadnt felt like that for years (well since Id left home). It was uncontrollable, and so powerful, I thought I might even harm him! It scared me so much, because I realised that there is a lot going on inside me that I cant account for. Not supressed, but as part of me and Im just going to have to live with this understanding. Meeting my parents is a trigger for this part of me to open up, and it always will unless I get a recognition of what happened, my feelings validated, and an apology (which is NEVER EVER going to happen).
So, for me, the thought of meeting up with my mother is just hopeless. IT will just evoke this terrible rage I have inside me, and I canT see what good it will do. It will just upset me for months afterwards. DO you know what? When I was so so angry like that, I think my dad was somehow pleased or satisfied or something. He kept continuing to say the things that were upsetting me. It was as if my anger proved to him that I loved him, and he enjoyed this feeling. Because perhaps indifference would be much worse for him. So from now on, hes only going to get indifference from me. Im never going to let him push my buttons again, and the <span class="italic">only</span> way I can achieve that is by not seeing him, not speaking to him on the phone (I have minimal e-mail contact) So if you think that my relationship with my mother is much worse than my relationship with my dad, then its easy to see that its not good for my mental health to see her. If you want my honest opinion, I think its <span class="italic">possibly</span> too soon to meet your mother, but then again, I can see by your posts that you are further down the road than me. You have overtaken me by miles, and youre probably ready. I just think you should practice a "social smile" in the mirror before you go, because there may be a chance that shell give a snidey comment or something, and you really do not want to show her that she can upset you anymore. Let us know how it goes afterwards. It might give the rest of us hope.　WEll, theres always hope, isnt there...

Thanks Sakura. I had in the back of my mind when posting this what happened when you attempted to see your mother last Christmas, and how horribly wrong it went, and I am aware that it may arouse some unpleasant emotions when it happens, but I will definitely practice that social smile and bottle my feelings and vent them here to you lot afterwards rather than get into anything with her!

My mother is a funny one. Unlike yours, I think she knows deep down that she has been wrong and treated me badly (she has certainly now acknowledged that to be true of the past, if not the events of the recent past) and it is her defensiveness and unhappiness and guilt IMO that makes her behave they way she does. I know that she envies the fact that I have married happily and that I am able to express my emotions in a natural and direct way, and that I am able to be intimate with others, which she isn't. I think she knows deep down that she is the one lacking integrity, not me, and I think that I am stronger than her.

A lot of the fears and anger and everything that I went through last year has largely disipitated now. I think your anger is wholesome, Sakura. I actually felt great when I was feeling angry all the time, it is such a powerful emotion and one that enables you to protect yourself and bring about change. But I am not and haven't been boiling with rage for a long time now, and my mother just isn't that almighty, powerful person for me anymore.

If I said she hasn't got the ability to upset me any more that wouldn't be true because she is still my mother - most people can upset me if they want to and my mother is no exception. But my reactions these days are less extreme and I even feel upsets (with anyone)are a useful "therapy tool" for examining and trying to change something about myself, IYSWIM. I can't change my mother, I can only change how I respond to her. In some senses i don't even need to change her anymore. I don't even feel that need for a mother or to be mothered anymore. I am the mother now in my family. It is almost as if the mother I had has died and been replaced by a confused, bitter woman who is a lot smaller than the previous one!

But this whole experience has enabled me to grow massively as a person (or maybe just grow up, as JoGH says) and so it is has been a good experience. I do on the whole feel like keeping my distance from her but I feel that I can use anything upsetting or negative that may happen as fodder for further growth. I hope that doesn't all sound like I'm writing a self-help book here!

The contact that I have had so far, btw, is less like picking at a scab or an open wound, but more like living with mild herpes! My past has happened, they are the family I got, I can live with this whole thing, and occasionally there are little flare ups but they die down again quite quickly too. I will live with this forever, one way or another, but now I know what the diagnosis is it really isn't that bad.

(Btw I don't actually have herpes ).

Pages,

Interesting about the herpes. I think you have grown so much since last year...your so adult...why can't I be like that!! . I think you will do fine with the social smile...try not to let your face 'tic' either, that's a dead giveaway...

Anyway...I relate to what Sakura said...the rage...I don't think I ever smiled a true smile at any of my family, it was more of a grimance, same in all the pictures they took of me. I just could not smile because of how I felt inside, they could say something to me, quite hypocritical and I would just explode. The anger was so close to the surface. And like your dad, my mother enjoyed it, cause if i did that, like your dad again, she knew I was still powerfully connected to her and still had strong feelings. She hated it when I became very adult and mature, she obviously felt I was cold towards her, more cold than when I used to be deliberately cold towards her if you see what I mean. She would become like a little child and adult in turn, somethings to parent...was quite interesting to see her fluctuate when I knew what to look for. Can't remember the point I was leading too now...memory like a sieve...

And Pages I think my mother and father and sister ALL know that they treated me badly, but it is quite deep down. My mother has acknowledged her 'devil on the shoulder' to me as a teen, i did get her to stop ganging up against me with my sister when i was about 20ish (20 bloody years too late) once I told her how horrible it was. And my father acknowledged years ago that my sister was the reason I was so stubborn. Actually...maybe my sister doesn't realise...she did improve as she got older. But in a way when they improve as they get older it does not make it any better, because as you said Sakura you NEED the real acknowledgements. I want them to KNOW and TELL me they understand why their behaviour was wrong. i want them to be SORRY, for what they did. I don't want to know about their childhoods, nowt to do with me, they had chance after chance to change and acknowledge but they just chose the 'sweep under the carpet' method. I just see any relationship no matter how distant with them is a lie unless they openly admit the truth of my experience of being a child being brought up by them and my sister.

Ramble over...

Good luck with the meeting Pages, if you feel its the right thing to do and you feel ready then go for it. Just remember...any odd behaviour...perhaps make her face it 'why did you say that?/why did you make that face?'. Makes them uncomfortable if they have to face their own shortcomings...and they feel an idjit for saying it/doing it there again if she's on the defensive...

Thanks Ally. I know what you are saying is serious but you are so funny.

I totally agree with the relationship being a lie unless the issues are confronted. I am actually not very good at confronting things head on when they happen (hence it taking me a year to bring up the conversation that everyone else appears to have forgotten!) so if she makes "that" face or says something cutting I will probably just reel in shock and gloss over it and be upset about it later. She is much better at the games and cutting remarks than me. I just don't relate to people like that - not anyone.

But if she wants to talk about it openly (which I doubt)then I would be happy to.

I think the upshot is that she has conceded a bit about my childhood and almost (but not quite!)apologised and a full apology and acknowldgment will HAVE to happen before we could ever have anything resembling a close relationship.

But equally I suppose I am prepared to have that superficial relationship where we send the odd card and photo and meet up once a year if that's what she wants. It is something entirely alien to me, and it WILL be a lie, but it may be a workable compromise if only to keep the door open for that apology if she ever does change and also allow her to have some kind of relationship with her grandchildren. I don't believe it is of any real importance to them and as you all know I personally don't think grandparents are that important, but I guess it is what I prefer for me and for her right now.