My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Have you spoken to your partner about all of this? I mean really poured your heart out to him? What does he say? You must really love eachother since you are planning to have a child/ren together.

What I did was that I wrote everything down that I wanted to say to my parents and all the questions that I wanted to ask them down on a piece of paper. Clutched it in my little hand and went up to speak to them with a pounding heart and shaky legs and hands. That way I got to say exactly what I wanted and I know have all their usual evasive or condescending answers to all my questions.

I did say sorry for some of the things that I said at that encounter but was told that I say sorry an awful lot and they laughed . Still have not figured out what to do about that one.

They did confirm that they thought I was a bad mother, bad person, had never made any good/right decisions, did not clean well enough (my mother is a cleanaholic) etc. I am sure you get the picture.

Funny thing is I went away from there holding my head high and strangely enough feeling good about myself, even though my mother was doing her usual manipulative crying her eyes out, everyone should feel so sorry for me act because it is YOU who have treated THEM badly. I did not cry until I came down to my hubby.

sorry - I got confused and replied to the other thread to everything

I am thinking of writing a letter - but is this "copping out"? My mother tends to meet me only with her current man, so I don't have much time alone with her - and last time I tried to speak to her I really didn't get the depth of emotion out and I allowed her to brush it off because it wasn't a convenient time (yes, I had seven years of daily "inconvenience" ).

On the other hand I often feel that whatever letter I write won't be perfect enough: as if it won't exactly capture everything. (is that a normal feeling?)

I do feel I owe it to the little child back then to say something - and I think it has to be an ultimatum.

In practical terms as I never speak to my siblings on the phone, email or letter, it would mean that they wouldn't see me the once a year I go home: I wouldn't have the two-weekly phone call from my mother. I wouldnt have the birthday cards. That's it. That is probably how I've managed to get by -so little contact.

Hugs

Hannah

Hi Hannah

Your very brave. I can relate to all you say of pretending nothing is wrong to your family, feeling terrified of confronting, fearing denial. Some advice I would give, do as you are doing now, deal with it before you get pregnant...I was 8 mth pg when I sent a letter to my mother. Not a good time!! But there again, it took then to realise I could not put her feelings above my child (she was very verbally aggressive on phone to the point i was shaking...was worried blood pressure would end up harming baby). Another bit of advice...I set a deadline for my letter to her, I do wish I had waited, I did keep rewriting and felt nothing I said would be good enough, would make her 'SEE' what she did, so I sent what I had...and because I was not 100% happy with it, I still question it now, a year on. So you have time at the moment to write and rewrite in your own time. Be gentle on yourself.

hugs to you xxx

Can I just draw your attention to this lady`s blog gettingpastyourpast

Shes amazing and its a very inspiring blog. Her story of abandonment is really awful. Her real mother gave her away into care when she was 7 years old. Her mother was pregnant with her brother at the time. But her mother couldnT let go enough to allow her to be adopted by a new family. So she was in foster care. Then she was finally adopted into a family with an alcoholic father, and the marriage of the adoptive family broke down shortly after and she was blamed. EVen in her adult life, her mother didnt want to know her She was married to a man who brought his girlfriends home when she was pregnant. At the age of 25 and in labour with their third son, she started bleeding and he came home from his girlfriends and shouted at her for making a mess in the house.

But she is really really strong now, and has written lots of inspiring entries into her blog about this. She is a lawyer now and gives talks about this kind of thing.
One thing I think I should point out is that Ive mentioned below that people should write letters. But she reccommends that you WRITE them as many times as you like but that you SHOULDNT send them "even if they seem like a masterpiece" The reason is because if the other person doesnt "get it" by now, theyre never going to get it, and youre never going to win and just <span class="italic">make</span> <span class="italic">them</span> <span class="italic">see</span>. YOu just have to close the door. AS difficult as this is, I have a horrid feeling sheS right.
I sent a compassionate, understanding "last" letter to my mum recently to let her know that I love her and understand things were difficult for her. I received a letter in return, which I ignored.
THen this week I received a letter full of hatred and bile from her, giving all of these warped reasons why she had to beat me and hit me throughout my childhood, and the point of the letter wias that it was my (a tiny child`s) fault. Her opening line was:
"It think the time has come that I should let you know about your childhood. You were always "a special child", prone to temper tantrums"
She then proceeded to explain why she had to spend most of my life beating the shit out of me.

She never explained why she used to beat my brothers too. Maybe they were "special" children as well. She never said that as a special child (which I doubt I was- it sounds by her "symptoms" that I was a normal little girl- arching my back as a baby, talking too much as a 3 year old ) that I may have needed more love and affection, not less, than the average child.
IM not lying here, she wrote in the letter "I even taught you French". NOw, she canT speak french, but once or twice I remember her sitting down with me and a French book and reading out the words. I just had a flash of "but we took you to stately homes..."
ANyway, I absolutely wanted to reply and tell her how ridiculous she is. And ask why my brothers now have social problems now and blah blah.
But instead I wrote down all my thoughts in my journal. It filled about 14 pages and took forever, but when it was all out, I felt better. Then I found that ladys blog. Anyway, I really believe now that Im through with her.
Although I did smile a secret smile of satisfaction upon reading that letter because shed inadvertantly <span class="italic">confessed</span> to everything. ALthough she was saying it was all my fault, she was actually admitting it had happened, which was a first but blinded by her self-righteous rage, shed missed that.
Anyway, gettting better, slowly but surely.

Hi, just wanted to check how you are doing Sakura after that letter from your mother?

Hello... I've had a really quick flick through this thread and wondered if I might join you? I have a violent bully of a father who battered 2 of 3 of his children for years (and possibly still batters) my mum. My mum turned a blind eye till my dad gave me a black one when I was 16. She used me as a shield to prevent my father throwing her down the stairs and I was hit for any number of things, once for putting marmite on my toast.

Life has rumbled on, and still some things are remarkably difficult, in particular feeling any sense of belonging (to a group, to a workplace...)

I seem to have spent my life overcoming ghastly mental illnesses (eating disorders and depression mostly) and trying to get on with things. On the whole, my life is an awful lot better than it was.

The thing that has really thrown me is my relationship with my brother. He has decided to continue the family tradition of violence and he and my dad are colluding. My brother has married badly. The pair of them behave appallingly and lie through their teeth about what goes on. I would really like to close the door to them and I don't know how to deal with his phone calls. I don't know whether to tell him in no uncertain terms about the consequences of his behaviour or whether to walk away.

My family seem to be of the opinion that I am the liar and the one who should be silenced so they can carry on regardless. It sometimes feels as though I am making it up. I'm not.

I'm so sorry to have hijacked this thread. I don't know where else to post.

Welcome hellobello! Sweetheart, you must know from reading this thread that no-one would think you are hijacking it, and that we would be glad to hear more about your situation and offer support. I am so sorry for what you have been through. I can relate to a lot of what you said. Although my mother never used me physically as a shield she did tell me once (quite proudly) that she reckoned she was the one my stepdad wanted to hit but that he only hit me because he never dared hit her.

I think we all on this thread understand the feeling of being made out as the liar, the one to rock the boat. That is the price you pay for the freedom to be who you truly are and stop living in denial like the rest of your family. Your brother probably knows no better, he doesn't have the insight you have. Chances are he isn't as bright as you.

I am so sorry you have suffered so long from depression. Have you had any counselling? Do you want to tell us a bit more?

Your post was very timely for me actually, as I have been feeling a bit sad lately (This is the anniversary of when it all kicked off for me, I think that's why) and you have just given me a reminder of why I walked away from my family. It is very common when you start to point out how sick the family system is for everyone to point the finger at you as if you are the one with the problem.

You have probably seen this mentioned a thousand times on this thread but the book "Toxic Parents" by Dr Susan Forward was a lifeline for me and will, I believe, really help you in dealing with your brother.

Hugs xx

Many thanks for your welcome Pages. I've come across Toxic Parents before. Is it quite old (like late '80s/early 90's)? There's another quite useful but old book by John Cleese and ~ Skinner, 'Families and how to survive them'. Ironically my brother keeps it at my parents' house.

I've had lots and lots of therapy of one sort or another for just short of 25 years.

I was finally treated with anti-depressants when I was about 25 and for the first time in my life I felt vaguely normal. What a revelation! They also kicked the eating problem on the head and that was the end of that. These days I am on and off medication, at the moment off, and trying to take stock after a year of really helpful therapy. The therapy is about to end and for the first time I'm really quite nervous about it. It feels a bit like getting up to speed then running out of road.

What has changed for you? What kind of help have you had? I recognise a lot of the books you mention though I haven't read them for a long time. I have read a lot about depression, mostly clinical manuals from the psychiatry end of things. I have read fewer things from the psychological view although I expect I now shall, just because the whole thing is so physical. I don't like Dorothy Rowe much, or at least I didn't used to. She recently wrote in the New Scientist about how teenagers should not be written off because they are in mental pain and are young and inarticulate.

Have you seen the Womens Aid website? her goes...let's see! I found it very reassuring that I was not alone. It also made an awful lot of things make a bit more sense to me.

Hi HB (calling you that, as "hello" might be confusing!). I had a look at the women's aid link, although I had never considered myself a candidate for women's aid - I thought it was for women who are abused by their partners, not the children. The real irony has just struck me, that at the time I lived with my stepdad my mother was a big campaigner for women's aid and helped set up the first refuge in our area. Many of her friends who also were involved had been abused by their partners and while they were all campaigning and proclaiming their independence as women, women's rights, etc I was getting abused by her violent partner who never laid a finger on her, and my mother never told anyone (or at least I assume she didn't - maybe she did and they didn't care). We did end up in the refuge when she finally left him but not because of anything he did to me or my brother. So "women's aid" was to me at the time and has always been for me something for women who needed help - we as childen had no rights and my feelings, pain, hurt, upset was never discussed - and it seems my mother is still unable or unwilling to discuss it to this day.

Yes, the John Cleese book is quite good but old, I thought Toxic Parents was more recent. The name Dorothy Rowe rings a bell, will have to google her. I think I may have read a book by her many years ago and also not enjoyed it much.

I have just finished 8 months of counselling and it was fantastic. I have never really suffered from depression but have always had very low self-esteem although people who don't know me well would be surprised to hear that as I have always been a bit of a go-getter. My brother and I for some reason that I am still not sure of are very resilient people and our reaction to everything was to fight hard to get away from it all and gain the security we lacked for ourselves. I think I was lucky to have a couple of very loving long term relationships when I was younger (both with men a bit older than me).

PS What has changed for me since the counselling (and all the support on this thread!) is that I have stopped internalising and making myself responsible for everything that happened and is happening still with my family and I have regained the lost "self" that inevitably was lost somewhere along the way as a child. In order to survive in my family I became overly compliant, self-blaming, and co-dependant with my mother - and therefore in my other relationships. I lost some of my personality to keep up the family system of denial and I think (hope!) I have recovered it. DH and close friends have noticed a positive change in me, but some of my older co-dependant relationships have inevitably suffered as a result of me not playing the game any more.

I'm finding that slowly, on good days I can do useful things and be effective. I am married to a lovely man who's much older than me and I think I may simply have been looking for a grown-up. All my boyfriends have been older than me.

I think recent councelling has helped me to take a bit more control over my life and to realise that I can be effective in the world. It doesn't work all the time and it's difficult having spent most of my life either being ignored and bullied by my father then making huge efforts to continue the job myself. It's tough trying to rub yourself out!

That must be particularly hard for you to be in a family which is supposed to be supportive to the outside world and ends up being abusive. My situation is similar in some respects and my father is a good upstanding member of the community. Family friends do not believe what a brute he is at home. Broader family members do not want to believe what it is like to live with such people. It makes the whole thing harder to escape from as though this is normal. I could not bear my children to suffer the same way.

Hi HB, I hope this thread is useful.
Pages thanks for the message. Im doing okay. Ive been journaling a lot lately and one evening I sat in the bath and basically started writing about the letter. I started with the words "This is going to be hard..."
I wrote 14 pages none stop and got it all down and felt better. She wrote some indescribable things that I donT even want to write here because Im so embarrassed for her. There is no hope for her, and the letter confirmed that. My father, Ive finally realised, uses guilt-peddling and charm to manipulate me too. Ive asked him not to contact me for a while, but of course he still does, writing letters all about his problems. I realise now that I have always been the parent to both of them, listened to their problems and worries, helped them sort things out, comforted them after a row, tried to be a peace negotiator if they rowed, more or less brought up my 4 siblings while my mum worked full-time and weekend shifts. No wonder they were terrified of letting me go- they were losing their "mother". But I canT be a mother to them <span class="italic">and</span> a mother to my daughter. I truly believe that my mum feels that Im her mother, and that by claiming my autonomy, Im abandoning her as a mother would. SHe canT understand why she is not the centre of my world (as a child is the centre of a mothers world). I desperately want her to see that <span class="italic">Im the child. Im</span> the love-needy child but she canT. All she can see is that a mother-figure has betrayed her.
So shell never see, but there is one important aspect that validates that <span class="italic">Im the child, not her, and that is the fact that I have yet to complete my family and that I have a baby daughter and that Im striving in any way I can to be a loving, responsive and empathetic mother. I have that chance to make a new life and path and have happy children. I feel like Ive been given a second chance. It feels strange-as though Ive been a mother once in the past, and now I can be a mother again, but I can make it right this time. I must have been so completely <strong>merged</strong> with my mother because I actually feel that I <span class="italic">was</span> her IYSWIM. I mentioned below that I had a dream that I actually was her and I woke up sobbing because I realised Id messed up my kids, and then I felt a gush of relief when I realised I was me, who had her whole future ahead of her.
I know this is totally rambling, I`m on the wine tonight, but maybe some of you can fathom where I am coming from.

So anyway, although it may not sound like it I am moving on quite well. Ive got some good friends, a very close one, and a nice group of mums who have nights out once a month. Im really enjoying being a mum to my daughter and find the whole process of mothering to be cathartic. Shes nearly 10 months and I havent got angry at her once. I just donT really see what a little child can do that would merit anger. I know kids test you later on and push boundaries, but even so, that is what kids <span class="italic">do</span> isnt it. Its healing me because its becoming so clear that I didnT deserve or "invite" the abuse, as Id been told I had (and had always suspected). Becoming a mother has made me see that it was truly them in the wrong, not me; a tiny defenceless little girl. When all is said and done, I just dont know how they did what they did. Ive been having lots of flashbacks, and I think Ive had a touch of post traumatic stress disorder. Also, things that didnt make sense to me in my childhood are starting to make sense now, like a big jigsaw of my phsyche. Things that I didnt understand the significance of, and couldnT understand why particular events stood out in my memory, actually make sense now. Theyre the pieces of the puzzle that I can use to understand why I do things that I do (like feeling overly-responsible for other people for example, or feeling like Im to blame for others` misfortunes)
.

Message withdrawn

I might do that danae, stick a note on my fridge "It is not your fault" (whatever it is, as you say). I`ve got to go now, but keep posting. Hopefully in another few months, things will keep getting better.

I'm trying to put a couple of links to the Royal College of Psychiatrists look here

the womens aid website hereI hope. I have been bullied badly by my parents and I don't know how to say so. I'm in my 40s.

Hi all, hope your all okay right now. Just wanted to throw a question in, how do you all feel towards your mother/father/siblings being around your child/ren?

I feel revulsion/fear/anger and there was no physical or sexual abuse, but I feel so strongly its like I was physically hurt by them...very fight or flight at the thought of them coming near me or my dd.

Maybe that's normal in our circumstances?

When I saw my children with my parents and big sister I felt mostly fear. Fear I realise now that they were going to mentally hurt them the same way they did with me. Fear that they were going to make my children feel just as scared, insecure and horrible about themselves as they made me feel about myself.

I don't think I will ever leave my children alone with my parents or my big sister again. I don't trust them and don't think I ever will.

I just had a huge falling out with my big sister. She phoned me up to invite me and the children to Ireland as she is over there on business which we said no thank you to as I can't take time off from work. She asked if there was something wrong and I said yes, I am angry with you because you never called or sent anything for my son's birthday.

She immediately tried to turn this back on to me. Saying I was unreasonable after all he is only 2 (he is 3 as I pointed out to her) and the number of times I have forgotten things (she did not mention any examples), in her little rant she also got his date of birth wrong. I calmly told her that he did notice that he did not get anything from her. She also said that she never sends them any presents (it is a rule of my parents that she likes, that if you are not actually with the birthday person then they don't get a present), and I explained to her that I meant an email or a birthday card.

She then tried to lie and say that she had sent an email. It took 3 attempts before she finally admitted that she had sent nothing and done nothing for his birthday.

I was just shaking so badly after having spoken to her, mostly with anger at how much she is turning into our parents.

Am I really asking so much? All I wanted from her right there was an ups, sorry I forgot all about it, I promise I will make it up to him the next time I see him (or something of that ilk). No instead it has to be turned in to being my fault. I just don't see how she can justify that!!?

maisemor, that sounds awful. AS bad as my mother and father are (and then my MIL), Im so thankful Ive never really had to go through the pain of having a sibling take their side like you, and ally and Pages and many others on this thread.
Children take parents side so that <span class="italic">they</span> are not on the receiving end of the bullying themselves. Your sister doesnT hate you- shes just a weak person, and its human nature to try to gain our parents lover and approval at any cost, even if it means lying, or losing our integrity.
My siblings wonT actually take my side (I think many of them have memory loss of the abuse, actually. Apparently thats a coping mechanism that children get in order to help them continue to function). Maybe your sister is blocking out how your parents really are because its too painful? Its easier to attack you and behave as though you are the one with the problem, because then she wont have to face hard questions about her relationship with her parents.

Thanks Sakura, the frustrating thing with my big sister is that she has spent 24 years rebelling towards her horrible parents (her words), she has seen numerous therapists (both at home and abroad), spent all this time telling me how I should hate them whilst I was defending them.

The minute I actually realise how badly they are actually treating me, and start standing up to them, she starts saying all the same things that I used to say, pretending to be really mature about the whole thing. I can just see how much she is enjoying FINALLY being the favourite child, her problem here though is that I am not jealous of her.

She has spent 24 years trying to work on her relationship with them. In my eyes she has actually gone way back to when we were children just because now they complain to her about me and my bad behaviour towards poor old them.

At least I think I have learned from how she dealt with them, all the things she has done to get their attention, that just did not work (well she did get attention but not love).

They are very much "respect us or go away". I just don't think they ever thought that I would actually go away .

Hello all

I haven't been on here for a while - I did come on a few weeks ago but found it too upsetting so didn't post. I feel much happier when I can just block it all out and pretend that everything is ok (hmm, denial perhaps?) but then situations keep happening that are forcing me to face up to things.

Welcome to the new people who have found the thread - hellobello, hannah and maisemor (apologies if I missed anyone out - there've been a lot of new posts!) - I hope you find the thread as supportive and useful as I do.

Dior - I am so happy that you have made up with your mum. Your post about your mum's text made me cry - I would so love for my mum to say that to me. The longing for her to say that she loves me and misses me is just too much to cope with. You are very lucky.

Sakura - what you said about the reversal of the mother-child relationship really struck home - and explains why so many of our mothers lost it when we had real children.

The reason I am having to face up to things again is my dad - all my contact with him now involves him having a go and trying to emotionally manipulate me - e.g. "what are you going to do at my funeral?" "or her funeral, how will you feel then?" Today he called, and I asked him what he wanted for his birthday and he said nothing because I didn't get my mother anything and do I have any idea how upset she was.... I really can't deal with it any more. I am beginning to be really angry with him for letting her be so cruel to me - even though he was supportive of me he still didn't stop her. and I hate that every time I speak to him I end up in tears for days.

I am feeling bad at the moment anyway as we have a family wedding in august which my parents will be attending. I really want to go as I don't want to let down my grandma and my aunts (mother's side) as they have been amazingly supportive of me. but the thought of facing her is keeping me awake at night already. I was thinking of just cancelling at the last minute by saying the kids were sick, but that seems really mean to the bride and groom (it's a casual outside barbecue, not sit down meal, but still) and I worry about tempting fate with anything to do with my children. Any suggestions? I was meaning to get the book on divorcing your parents - does it have any advice for how to deal with situations where you come across your 'divorced' parent?

apologies if this is a bit rambling - hope you get my gist. and thankyou all - it is so nice to have somewhere to go to talk about this - you don't know how much I rely on this thread some days, even when I don't manage to post anything.

I am kind of dreading Christmas in the same way (well who can blame me for thinking about Christmas with this beautiful summer weather ).

I can't make up my mind as to whether I should suggest meeting up with them so they can see the children or just ignore the fact that I am finally back in the country they live in and just meet up with the people we actually miss.

One thing I do refuse is to meet at their house, but I don't know if that is just me being akward. My husband says it is just a house. I just think that they will think that they have won in some way if we go to their house. They will feel that they have all the power when they are on home turf (i.e. they can throw us out if they want to, they feel they have the right to speak to us in any way they feel fit etc.), or maybe it is just me feeling that way and thereby giving them the power, if that maks any sense.

I would be shaking as well if I was you Suburbia. I think I would go, if they want to creat a scene then there will be more people to witness that it is them behaving irrationally. Try to avoid them if possible. If they say hello, just say politely hello back. I would not try to engage in any conversation with them. If they tried to I would politely (and hopefully calmly) point out to them that this is nor the place nor the time.

Sorry have to get back to work.

I feel for you Suburbia...when I broke contact with my mother, I kept in contact with my father and he used the time with me and my dd to try and get me back in contact, bringing items from her, telling me I could 'drop' my dd off at their house while I went shopping, despite the fact they were strangers to her and she got upset even going to my dh (she liked nursing...alot!) He told me he had never seen her so upset since her miscarrage, (that made me feel like a really evil person, he told me this when medd was about a month/6 weeks old, my hormones were still raging at the time!)...telling stories that went along the lines of 'oh so and so hasn't seen his mum and dad in ages and they've really aged' or 'my brothers fought but they get on now, it happens'...each visit left me furious and hurt and in tears after, took me days to recover like you. Although he never bullied me, he never stood up to my mother and sister. In the 'drama triangle' (psychanalysis) he was the 'bystander', like someone who sees an attack on another person on the street but does nothing. So I made the decision to separate from him too. The relief of not having to be made to feel guilty about breaking contact with my mother (felt enough as it was) and not to feel so physically threatened by his behaviour, I trembled each time he was due to come round. When I think of what I put myself through to maintain contact despite the stress to do the right thing by one parent... or as I saw it as the time. Its coming up to a year since I last saw him and I don't miss the stress or tears. I miss him occasionally then I think of how he stood by and did nothing and how he never listened to me or asked how I was...and all the support I gave him by listening to all his problems over the years (in a parent capacity, like Sakura?). Its just a relief. Of course having said all that...that's just my experience and my story. Everyone is different and I feel a bit of a outsider on this thread because I feel no emotional attachment to my family at all. If there is emotion its buried so deep in me I can't feel it. I don't miss my mother, my sister or my father in a aching, grieving way as many of you seem to, I miss things they said or did (nice things)as if in a friendship that I grew out of by occasionally thinking of them. The trauma I felt was while in contact with them, I had feelings of guilt and confusion and hurt when they acted in a hurtful way or they could provoke my anger, but never in a 'i miss my mother' way. I don't think I ever really had a loving relationship with her, I never relied on her, my sister or father with secrets as my mother and sister used them against me and my dad would change the topic back to him...both were hurtful ways of saying 'we're not interested in you or your life'. In a way I wish I could feel loss so I could feel as tho I could move on, but without that feeling of loss about my family I feel stuck in my isolated and defensive position I am in whenever I am in company. I recently went to a new playgroup with my dd and 3 times people asked about my family and each time I said 'i'm no longer in contact with them'.

And I'm rambling now! Helpful to get thoughts out tho, not done that in ages, must take up the suggestion someone made about writing 3 pages every morning...

Maismor - I get what you mean about meeting up at their place. Its on their territory, I think its natural you feel nervous about it. Think of an alternative. Meet somewhere before xmas for a family meal in a restuarant? Don't go? Ask them to yours...but I would find that intimidating too...but again its your ground so you set the rules. Ask them to stay in a hotel? Just don't do something you don't feel uncomfortable with. And tell your dh that too!

Hi Hellobello, nice to hear from you. Sorry to hear your story. Made me sad reading about 'rubbing myself out'. Very upsetting to know your brother is continuing the family script/history. One bit of advice, you can only change yourself not other people, try writing a letter to him to tell him your side, how you feel it impacts on you hearing about it after your father's actions and trying a separation? The contact with him is causing you stress and stress come's out in all sorts of ways, or we can suppress it, neither is healthy. You have to look after yourself now (I know its probably an alien concept to most of us here!).

Suburbia, there are bits in beverley engels 'divorcing a parent' about dealing with contact but nothing precise. More on how to chose what kind of contact you have with family...ie explain to other family members that you will/won't go to places where they are due to your separation/feelings towards them...she explains better! Very good book tho, it was my bible at my worst times. There are sections at the back of the book on how partners and friends can be supportive, section for the parent to read and sections for your therapist if they have problems with the idea.

anyway better sign off now...been typing an hour...eek! best get some lunch!

take care all xxx

Hi Ally,
maybe youve done all your grieving for them. Or maybe its yet to come-maybe if something happened to your mum, for example, she passed away, maybe thatll be the time for you to feel loss.
After experiencing the grieving and feelings of deep loss that I have gone through,　Im pretty sure now that if my mum passed away, there wouldnt be much pain or grieving left inside me. Ive grieved for the mum I never had, for my childhood, for not having a mother now, for the abuse- for everything. ITs an ongoing process, and I do feel that if she passed away, I would feel relief. More of a relief that she no longer has all that bitterness and capacity to abuse inside her anymore. Shell be free, at peace and at rest from all of her poison.

When people ask me (i.e all the time) about whether my mum misses me because I live so far away, or if they miss DD, or if they were delighted to see her, I just give a big warm smile, and say yes. I dont feel like its lying. I feel like Im the kind of person who deserves a great, loving family, but my some horrible chance, I dont have that. I donT want it to permeate all my relationships, because people do judge you, even nice people- especially nice people- because they just don`t know what we know.

I know what you mean Sakura, someone at work asked me about my mother and when I said we had fallen out she said "No! You're far too nice to fall out with anyone". And I think I am generally fairly easy going. But I do get the feeling from time to time that people think I must be a bit of a cow not to just let it go, blood is thicker than water, etc. and it's as if people are now seeing me in a different light.

Recently had a bit of a tiff with my SIL on my DH's side (who has, along with the rest of his family, been totally supportive of me) and she suggested we should make it up straight away (with no apology on her part I hasten to add) because there had been enough falling out - I got the distinct feeling that she was saying that I need all the friends I can get and can't afford to lose anymore family - well, that is what she actually said. It is almost as if I am now expected to be grateful for the people who I have "left" and am expected to be extra nice to everyone so that I "don't upset anyone else" when in actual fact I feel less inclined to be anything that I am not.

Does anyone else ever wonder how you strike the balance between speaking your mind and risking upsetting someone and (on the other hand) keeping up appearances and silently fuming..? Bit of a philosophical question, I know, but I feel I've really got to a stage in my life whereby I just can't be bothered with pretences any longer.