My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hi PAges, nice to have you back

Hi Pages :D

Hope all is good with you!

xxxx

Sakura, thanks for your response and thoughts. What you said about treating your mum as being responsible for her actions chimes with a discussion I had recently with a friend who is a retired psychologist.

Amongst other things, she said that my 'preferred' way of dealing with my mother's behaviour of apologizing for things I haven't done certainly won't help me, and probably won't help my mother either. After reading short passages from one of my mother's letters, her comment was that my mum was very ill. But she also went on to say that that doesn't mean I can make her better, and indeed the only way to safeguard myself and my relationships with dh and dd may be either a temporary separation or full cut off from my mother.

While I suppose it is reassuring to hear from a professional that my mum really has got a serious problem - and I'm not over-reacting, I guess in some way I would have rather heard that it wasn't all that bad, and that things could get better if only I did x, y and z. None of us want to lose our mums I suppose.

it has taken me a few days to get back online and see the site, but thanks to alley and suburbia for words of support and also just understanding! It means so much to realise i am not the only person to experience this kind of stuff/nonsense.

Circus - i agree with your initial comment that it is easier to think of one's mother as mad as opposed to bad (lets face it, who wants to think of their own mother as bad) but sakura is right, they do know WHAT they are doing...

bottom line, it would be so much easier to cut my mother out, but i just can't. The guilt is too much and i just think about my poor dad too. and like the child we all are with our parents, i don't want to lose my mum . i need the fantasy mother and also the fantasy that things could get better and she could be normal, because at this stage i am not strong enough to face the truth.

good luck everyone! lets hope we all do better by our own children.

PS: i wonder why it is that happy events (for normal mothers!) like marriage and children bring this behaviour to the fore?

Hi everyone, have finally caught up - I know you will not be surprised when I say I have had to make notes as there were so many interesting points made, but at the moment the dc are wrecking the living room so I will be back tonight with a glass of wine and probably a very long post!

In the meantime if you feel inclined Circus to try and access my original thread "Would you cut your mother out of your life" which I started in June last year (I am hopeless at links and stuff, dont know if Mnet goes back that far?) there was a woman who posted near the end who said she finally cut her mother out after her mother ruined her DD's christening, her experience was so similar to yours I thought you would find it interesting. Oh and I am not sure I entirely agree with your psychologist friend about the apologising thing, but more on that later...

Okay, here goes...

Sakura, my friend, so sorry that, having freed yourself of a controlling, crazy mother you now have a similar MIL to deal with. Someone up there really is testing you... but maybe you and DH will get closer for it in the end having both had a toxic mother... I was interested to read what you wrote about the "fake person", ie narcissits having two characters and that has been the case with my mum, who has been very much "hot and cold" all my life. I told her in a recent letter how confusing that had been for me. It makes a lot of sense that there is no actual real person underneath.

SCP, bless you for your honesty and self-awareness. I agree entirely with what the others have said. My very first thought on reading your initial post was "She's not toxic, she wouldn't be saying this if she was... and oh how lovely it would be if my mother ever made such admissions to me. It would be the beginning of the healing of our relationship. There is a chapter in "Toxic Parents" near the end that talks about how no parent is perfect and particularly if you had a toxic upbringing yourself but says how to mend any harm you feel you may have done and saying sorry is just about the essence of it.

Suburbia, I am at your mother but I can tell you, it does get better and you can recover from the loss. You actually sounded stronger in your later post. I am so happy that your dad sees your mum as she is and that will help. I too was lucky to have a brother as my "enlightened witness". I have just finished nearly a year of therapy at 40 pounds a throw and it is the best money I have ever spent in my life. I have finished as I no longer need it and my therapist agrees.

Danae, having a small baby is tough and you are obviously exhausted but you are also quite obviously a million times the mother yours ever was (or wasn't). Just what you have said on here demonstrates that. You are better off without her IMO. A mother has a duty not just to love and protect her child but to engender positive feelings and confidence in that child about her abilities and your mother has failed you in every respect. Your mother must be hugely insecure in trying to undermine you in this way and by sending that book she is projecting her own inability to parent onto you, DON"T let her give you any more negative messages about yourself! A break from her will help you claw back some much needed energy. The guilt is hard at first but it gets easier as you find the energy you need for you more than compensates. I too struggled with the cards (to send or not) issue and just decided I would make contact when I wanted and not when a date on the calendar told me I should. I don't actually care anymore what the (non-)recipient thinks or feels about it. I do, however, have "detached compassion" for my aging narcissist of a mother. I am not pretending I don't care about her but I don't feel I am reacting so much to her anymore. I feel for you, it is hard not having a mum, but you can get what you need elsewhere. I (who used to rely heavily on mine always being there) have got by without mine for a year and I think finding other (esp. older) women who can nurture you would help you (this is what my counsellor told me to do). Is there any kind of women's group local to you, or are there any women around who can give you a bit of nurturing? I took comfort during my worst time in the warmth of the women who run my kids' nursery (all mums themselves, and doing the job they do because they have stong maternal feelings), just one of them (with a big bustly bosom and an apron on!) saying "hello my darling, how are you?" to me one morning and hugging me when I burst into tears helped me enourmously! Most women love to nurture others - look around you and you may easily find the hugs and nurturing that your mother never gave you. If I were where you are now I would certainly give you a big hug!!! I think what helps me now is that the realisation has hit me that I am actually a far better mother than mine ever was or is, and as I now have lost all the respect I once had for her I don't need her any longer. I think you can be your own mother. Just think of how protective you feel about your dc and apply it to yourself.

Sandcastles - I could relate to what you said about the trauma being dragged up by having kids of your own and I too have asked myself (and my mother recently!) how she could have let my stepdad hurt me when I would kill anyone who hurt my babies. How could your mum blank you and boast about it? Easy. Because she has never grown up, she is self-obsessed and unmaternal and she has always cared far more about herself than she has ever cared about you or any of your siblings (no matter what they might like to think). It sounds like she can't bear rejection either so had to be "one up" on you. Rejection is definitely an issue for my mother and my brother told me recently that he always phoned her regularly even if he didnt want to because if he didn't she wouldn't ever phone him.

Circus, interesting what your counsellor friend said, I personally find the "I'm sorry you feel that way but..." approach works, as long as you are really not actually apologising for something you havent done I don't think there is any harm in saying you are sorry the other person has been hurt and I think there is a lot of freedom in saying sorry for even a small thing even if the other person's injury to you is ten times bigger. I have apologised for every bit of the final showdown with my mother that I felt bad about and she has apologised for nothing and I feel I am in a far stronger position, and have the moral highground. As I said once before to Sakura I sometimes say sorry to DH when he has been in the wrong and he can never live with it for long because he has a conscience. Not sure if my mother deos, but I think it is more that her ego is so fragile that admitting she has been wrong is much harder for her than it is for me. I also think apologising is a way of opening up a dialogue if that other person has backed themselves into a corner, and it just makes you look bigger. Apologising to your mum doesn't mean she doesnt owe you a far bigger apology. You may not get the apology back but in a way you are showng your mother how it's done. Well that's my view, it has worked for me and I certainly have NO guilt whatsoever left.

Also was it you Circus who mentioned the John Cleese Book (Families and How to Survive Them)? I too was shocked when I read that bit about autism but I decided it was generally an intelligent and illuminating book but the authors were misguided on that one point. The book was written in the 80s and I may be wrong but I don't think anyone with any real knowledge about autism (professionally or otherwise) thinks like that anymore. I think you have to extract what makes sense to you from any self-help book but I have found a few authors that have really changed my life (Alice Miller and Susan Forward most notably).

Beingsomeoneelse, I think happy events (in that they are usually about us loving someone else) threaten our mothers. In getting married, being pg or even just putting our child before our mother (as I and Greenie both did) we are displaying our love for someone else who is perhaps more important to us than them and it makes them jealous.

Well I now have to eat and you are all probably asleep by now anyway so I will have to come back again and tell you more about my recent update.

Keep being strong all of you

Pages - very interesting to read your thoughtful posts, as ever. In your response to me you were giving good examples of the positive reasons for apologising to somebody - even if in your heart you think they should be doing the apologising not you. I agree with you on that. It's a very good idea to apologise for mistakes and misunderstandings.

I think for me the danger is in apologies for certain things my mum is thinking. I can easily apologise for a disappointing meal etc. (have already done so more than once) - what is really sticking with me is her insistence that I apologise based on her interpretation of events - that this whole pre-christening meal was designed to disrespect and upset her, and so on. Of course it wasn't (and anyway I doubt her walking out had anything to do with my culinary efforts) and if I say it was and apologise for that - then what sort of person does that make me in her mind? Well, I already know I am No. 1 hate figure in her mind at present - so perhaps that's irrelevant. Perhaps it's the sort of person it would make me in my own mind I can't live with. But I can't really see that agreeing with somebody's paranoid interpretations can have any good mid- or long-term effect, even if (big if) it enables some sort of temporary concilliation.

I don't know. It's all very difficult and there are clearly no easy answers. I think I appreciate even more how courageous Sakura and others who have decided not to see their damaging mothers are.

Thanks for the advice all.

Circus, you are absolutely right on that last point and that is why I too have refused to budge on the issue that caused all of this in my family, ie. me being accused of making up lies about my mother and SIL. I am never ever going to accept that I lied and made up the conversation about my son between me and my mother because I didn't. I don't think my sister (for example) understands why this is such a big issue but to me it is fundamental and I will NEVER back down over it.

But I was feeling big enough and distanced enough emotionally from my mother to contact her a month or two ago and tell her that she may have closed the door on me but it was still open as far as I was concerned. I wrote her a long letter and, in a nutshell, told her just about everything. I really felt I had got to that grown up place Sakura and I both mentioned whereby I could contact her without it mattering to me whether I got a reponse or, if I did, if it was a negative one. I just felt that my last words had been angry ones and that had disempowered me in a way (that's just the way I felt, not saying my anger or what I said wasn't entirely appropriate) and that I wanted to go back to her and say what I had to say in a more ?adult to adult? way.

The only things still bothering me were a) that she had no contact with my dc and I wanted her to know she could if she wanted so that she knew her seeing them wasn?t contingent on me and her sorting things out. I totally respect those of you have decided you don't want this contact but I have always felt in my dc's case she should have the opportunity to see the dc if she wanted to. Also, b) no matter how justified, I had said some things which were hurtful to her and it just wasn't ME to hurt someone and not apologise for it, even though the injury to me by her was a hundred times bigger. As someone said guilt is only appropriate when it is justified and I still had some guilt about the harshness of my letter to her. So I rephrased it in a much more gentle way, told her I was sorry I had hurt her but that she too had hurt me deeply for years and I had never been able to express that hurt without risking losing her. I told her everything I felt, that we had "shared a brain" as Sakura puts it, because I was too scared to be separate from her, that I would always love her but that her actions in the past and in the present had affected me deeply and that I didn?t want to be part of a family that treated me in this way, nor to expose my children to the games any longer.

I got a response which really surprised me. She said that she was glad to hear from me and that she now realised how traumatic my while childhood/life had been because of her lack of understanding and her own problems. She didn't apologise but she did say that she now understood it had affected me profoundly and that she admired my strength and resilience in getting through all that pain and suffering.

She acknowledged that I hadn't ever been touched or held as a child because (like SCP) she couldn't (didn't have it herself), which validated my own experience and the desperate need I have felt all my life to be touched and held (DH and my DC now fulfill that need!!) She didn't give any apology or explanation for the more recent stuff and said we would meet up "some day soon" (Eh? No hurry then). I was extremely pleased that she was no longer dismissing my childhood as "not that bad" but she didn't take any reponsibility for anything that happened recently and so I wrote back and pointed this out and have heard nothing since.

I feel totally at peace with it all now. I still feel (as I am sure you all do) that if I were to get a full and frank apology for the way I (and my older brother) have been marginalised in the family I would forgive her anything. But I think it is going to be a long time coming, and in the meantime life goes on...

It's funny isn't it how things can suddenly change in your life without warning? I had no idea that this was all going to blow up when it did and if anyone had told me a year ago what was about to happen and that life would effectively change direction for ever I would never have believed it. The idea that I could fall out with my mother was unthinkable! But I think being a mother myself has given me a taste of what the powerful bond of love was meant to feel like and I now realise with my mother it was never really there, at least not unconditionally, the way it is with me and my dc.

I'm so pleased for you Pages! At last, an acknowledgement...Just hope I can get to a place where I can do the same to my family, my letter was not really me talking, would be good to send another. But is that the desparate urge to 'make them see' what they did?

Good for you Pages

xxxxxx

First of all, thank you Ally for mentioning something on another thread that hit the nail on the head about people who make you feel uncomfortable (i.e my MIL). They are tolerable to be around before you have a baby. But after you have a baby, we go into protective mode, and anyone who is not really on our side, feels threatening. This is exactly how I feel about my MIL (and of course my mother). Its as though I dont feel <span class="italic">safe</span> to be with MIL- nothing to do with wanting to get her back, or being selfish. Its like DD <span class="italic">is</span> part of me while shes so tiny, so anything that hurts me, hurts her, and I can`t let that happen IYSWIM.

Pages, Thats absolutely great that you have come this far with your mum. I totally understand why the lie part is fundamental to you. Its like if you were to admit to lying (when you hadnt), youd be losing a little piece of yourself again. By letting your mum define who you are and what you do.
I believe this thread, and our healing process is all about rediscovering our self, the kernel, our core that is us, and then builiding it up to be someone we like and eventually love.
Then I thought about what you wrote when you said that you were driven to being hateful to your mum but that hateful person wasnt actually <span class="italic">you</span>. I know what you mean. I feel that the events in my life have lead me to be a tough person who can "take care of herself" like I had to with my MIL. Im still so angry at her, and I still havenT seen her yet, but part of me wants to articulate how angry I am at what shes done. SHes not normal and she would do it again if I gave her half the chance, so I cant ever give her the rope again.
But I feel that Im a caring, loving person underneath, but <span class="italic">that</span> person has never really had a chance to blossom. SO that is the person Im trying to nurture now.
After the recent performance with my MIL, I too have wrote an understanding letter to my mum. I havent posted it yet because Im waiting for the MIL thing to blow over, and if my mum reacted badly I couldnt cope with it right now. I feel that what has happened with my MIL has made me realise that other people have faults that are different to my mums, and it has helped me to forgive my mum (thank you MIL )
My mum gets very angry and scary, but at least shes honest with her emotions. MILs mission in life is to divide and rule her family. She is very envious of anyones happiness, and wants her family all pitted against one another. She is manipulative and snidey. Shes critical with me and her own children, and she is constantly like this. Its as though she wants to extinguish your very self, your very being i.e. a real narcissist. The scariest thing is, MIL does all of this with a beautiful smile on her face, and twinkly eyes, in a manner that makes you believe she must be a great person. Its very confusing and you start to doubt yourself.
I prefer my mum as an enemy any day. There is no doubting her crazy behaviour, because there seems to be a lack of insight into her rages and possibly a lack of awareness of how shes hurting people. But I believe MIL knows exactly what shes doing, except that her way is socially acceptable [shudder].

Can I recommend another book? I think you might be able to get if from Amazon. Its really helping me, because it has tasks to get through that help you rediscover your confidence and sense of self:

the Artists WAy by Julia Cameron I cant reccomend it enough

Sorry, I went off on a tangent there.
Pages, I really hope there is a future for you and your mum. She does need to admit her fault in the main argument. That is crucial to her healing as well as yours.
But its a really good start, and theres no going back now and the relationship will always be different, so youll never find yourself in the same old "routine". At least you are <span class="italic">much</span> stronger than you were when you started this process. I remember when you first wrote on here, and I found your post, and empathised with you. I feel that you have overtaken me now in your healing process. Im not at that mature place where I could speak to my mum properly, without her hurting me yet. But at least I know what my goal is now.

Hi Sakura, your MIL sounds more like my mum than your mother does. Everyone thinks my mum is this gentle, defenseless person who wouldn't hurt a fly, but only me and my older brother (and my DH) have seen how manipulative she can actually be. She somehow always manages to come out the victim in others' eyes and if there is ever a problem I always end up carrying the blame and yes, that is why I can't let the "lie" thing go - as you said, it would be letting her define me as something I'm not, but also (as I said in a further letter to her) me carrying the guilt and blame for something she has done (or let happen to me, ie my stepfather's treatment of me, always made to feel it was my fault for winding him up) has been an ongoing pattern all my life, and it is one thing to acknowledge that she let me down in the past, but if it is still happening now then nothing has changed. There is something quite frightening and upsetting about being "stabbed in the back" by your own mother isnt there? Given the overwhelmingly protective feelings we all feel for our dc.

I think I am at a stage where I feel at peace but I don't know if there is necessarily a point in the healing process where you ever come to terms with it and that's it, for evermore. As Sandcastles said, she had reconciled herself for years to her mothers' behaviour only for her mother to take another shot at her in the post office that day and upset her all over again. You too were doing well, Sakura, until your DD came along and the events of Christmas, and now your MIL is testing you further. I think what we can do, however, is learn to handle it better.

I got an email from a friend of the family, saying he was seeing my younger brother and would pass on my love and I told him my brother would be very surpised if he did, as we had fallen out. Just hearing about my brother upset me all day. But I was okay again the next day. I then got a postcard yesterday from my mother saying nothing very much but sending her love. She didn't mention the "lie" or acknowldege it as I had asked her to, and that upset me for some of the day. But today I feel fine again. I think the difference with me now is that I am much better able to recover from the knockbacks than before and don't feel the need to react in the way I did in the past. I do feel like I have spearated from her at last.

But I truly believe when you have had your self-esteem damaged as badly as many of us have had throughout our childhoods it is an ongoing process to repair it and even though I am out of crisis it is really important to me that we are able to keep up this ongoing support of each other.

Hmm, people think my mother is gentle and defenseless too...I get 'oh your mother is lovely' from some people...obviously never seen her in a spiteful angry rant then.

The comment on the 'hateful person' (Pages/Sakura) I have to agree with. When I was 16 to 21 I was screaming and yelling at mother and sister and hating myself. Then from 21 I calmed down but bitched about her to my mates and felt 2 faced and a horrid person, but what can you do when they won't listen to you? Hold it all in again like when you were a kid or let it out and get some support? Also understand the 'taking care of self' and being tough Sakura. That's me through and through! However it also led to further alienation from mother and sister as I was then seen as 'unemotional'. My dh had a point to make about how parents can treat their children in such a way that they become what the parent most dislikes about them.

Thanks for your mention of my other post Sakura Find you and all the others on here say many things (too many to keep up with) that get me thinking after I've come off the comp. Really sorry about your MIL too, mine is ott and a complete hypocrite as is SIL but dh is very aware of it. Your situation is another mother to deal with as if you didn't have enough on your plate. Interesting what you say about forgiving your mother, do you feel you 'should' forgive her? Or do you suddenly feel more understanding of her? I ask because I always felt I should forgive and forget. Then reading one of my self help books it suggested I didn't, as did dh. But at times I do feel understanding of my mothers behaviour and it feels close to forgiveness.

Also with Sakura, Pages overtaking with the moving on process. I thought I would be able to think logically and coolly about my mother at this point...mmm...no! Toying with writing a letter but I still feel it would be overemotional and not 'adult' as your's obviously was Pages. I have done nearly 3 yrs of therapy and can't see the end in sight yet. V frustrating.

Pages, agreeing with you on your principle of not admitting to something you never said. Giving in now would be letting the boundry down and letting your mother back in to manipulate you. FWIW I feel your doing the right thing. Feel proud of how you are handling all this (and only ever seen your writing!). Just a bit inspirational for me! Sat thinking 'wow, wish I was able to do that'. You must be strong even if you don't feel it at times.

xxxxxxx

lol Pages at your reply to the friend of the family. Ill pass on your love to your younger brother! what is that? The self-esteem thing is what we have to build on. Just like we were shocked when we found out our mothers were like she is, I was really shocked at the possibility that I had low self-esteem. Ive always seen myself as being outgoing, liked a drink, travelled anywhere, no real body or food issues, did well academically, had lots of boyfriend and friends (although as I mentioned before, I have no career to speak of, when really I should have). This was not a person with low self esteem. It wasnt as though it was fake or I was fake, like the narcissist, but there was another, sadder dimension to me. I never hid that darker side because I just assumed everyone had it. It is only very recently that Ive realised that that darker side doesnt have to exist to the extent that it does. My self esteem has been practically non-existant, come to think about it. And Ive had a lot of inexplicable self-loathing too.
Ill be able to cope with MIL and my mother better when I sort out my self esteem. MILs behaviour is particularly pernicious because she mocks people a lot, and mocks peoples choices, ways of doing things or actions. Even her other grandchildrenA (5 and 8 years old!!!) EVerything she does is an attack on the other persons sense of self.

Ally,
About forgiveness: I had decided around the time of the wedding that we dont need to blindly keep forgiving our parents. I still hadnt heard of the world "enabling" but I realise now that is what we do when we forgive ridiculous behaviour. Children learn that there is cause and effect in life. So that means if you treat someone badly there will be consequences. Bullies tend to organise their lives in a way that means they dont ever face these consequences. They surround themselves with people with low self-esteem, for example. I dont think we should forgive our parents because they are our parents, or because we "should" . Its all about not passing this evil cycle on to the next generation.

I cut my mum out of my life (its coming up to 2 years now), and even though Im approaching forgiveness, that doesnt mean Im letting her back in my life. Forgiveness is something just for me, in my little heart, and it wont make any difference in the way I interact with my mother. So from her side, she wont know whether Ive forgiven her or not IYSWIM.

But I forgive her, because I realise that she has lots of good points that my MIL doesnt have, and I believe my MIL is a worse person than my mum. My mum had a terrible MIL as well, I think. And my dad never took her side. DH <span class="italic">finally</span> took my side but only because I was serious about leaving if he didnt. My mum was married in a time where there was more of a "shame" and "faliure" about divorce. I also have the internet to look up bizzare behaviour but my mum didnt have these resources. She must have been very confused. Also, I know her upbringing must have been shit. So when I was going through the MIL thing, I could feel the pain that she would have felt. This has helped me to forgive her. Ill still never understand how and why she took all of her anger out on me. DD is 7 months now, and I have never felt angry, not even once. I know kids test you as time goes on, but I cant honestly think of something my DD could do that would make me behave anything similar to the way my mum did. I know I turned out better than my mum. So is this because I was born a stronger person, or is it because my mother was better than my mothers mother? If its the latter, then my mum did a good job, under the circumstances. But I suspect it wasnt because of her, but <span class="italic">despite</span> her that I turned out a little better. I suppose Ill never know the answer to this question.

Thanks Sakura for explaining, do you feel its helping you move on somewhat? At times I feel understanding of my mothers behaviour and her background. Which in a way for me is close to forgiveness as I think I will ever get. And like you, it alters nothing between myself and my mother, she still did what she did and she's still the same person. However I do feel it lends more perspective on the situation.

I was also interested that you say your more forgiving of your mother because MIL is worse. Is that a case of 'well she's not THAT bad compared to...'. Is that in a way belittling what happened to you with your mother? Because your MIL is worse it makes your mother a more 'okay' person?

Sorry to keep asking questions, but what you have written is thought provoking for me. My MIL also seems worse than my mother and I sometimes have the 'well compared to mil......'. Interesting to know someone elses thoughts on it.

Pages, yes, what was the 'well I'll give your love to him'... probably the 'blood thicker than water' syndrome. You can't be not in contact, he's your brother...etc etc etc. I would have been steaming...Must be tough getting the postcard from your mother and again, the failure to acknowledge that one thing that means so much to you. Its like the denial has come back. But I do think you have achieved a massive amount by your mother acknowledging your childhood. Who know's what more time away from you to think could yield? But on the flip side you can't wait forever. As my therapist keeps reminding me

xxxx

Yeah, that was weird wasn't it? The "I'll pass on your love". I honestly don't think he knew that we had fallen out, but it was still weird, cos I could pass it on myself if I wanted to. I think it was just something to say tbh. But it upset me just because it was a reminder of my brother seeing our mutual friends and the likelihood that he will try and get them against me. Though this friend is unlikely to get involved, and he and I go back a very long way.

Forgiveness - yes, interesting. The stock answer to getting over something horrible that has been done to you. Many years ago I spent a long time trying to make myself do the "Christian" thing when my friend took up with my ex partner of 5 years immediately after I split up with him (well she was hanging around on the sidelines before I did actually, and it all made my breakup with him ten times more painful than it would otherwise have been) and it bothered me for a long time that I found it so hard to forgive her betrayal. If I had realised then what I know now, which is that NOT forgiving is actually more liberating and being more true and supportive of yourself, I would have probably got over that much quicker.

Reading in "Toxic Parents" that it is okay not to forgive was like a breath of fresh air to me. I can and do have some sympathy for my mother and some understanding of the limitations that led to what happened but that doesn't alter the fact that it happened and that i have suffered as a result of her actions (or inactions) and I think having understanding and sympathy for someone doesn't have to happen exclusively without also feeling angry, upset and hurt with them. I have really worked through a lot of my anger and now have much more room for sympathy and there is an undercurrent of love that will always be there, but it doesn't change what has happened. It does help having had some acknowledgement and I know that would have been hard for her but that really is only a start.

PS I agree Ally, that because your MILs are worse than your mothers you shouldn't give them credit for being "less bad". Many of your mothers (including Sakura and Greenie and Sandcastles) I think are far more toxic than mine but that doesnt mean my mother hasn't caused me pain.

Ally, it is to do with being able to understand her now, and realising that she has probably done the best she could have with the resources and upbringing that she had. The MIL incident made me feel a bit of what she went through, and it is unpleasant. If my DH hadnt (finally) took my side, I would have felt I was going mad. My dad never did take her side on that matter. She took out all her anger on us kids (especially me). I know that MIL probably has her own story too and Im sure she treated me how she was treated by her MIL. In Japan you often see the bitter eldery woman strutting about with the newborn in town, with the poor mother hanging around on the sidelines. Its like an icon here actually and I really notice it now. But that doesnt mean I didnt feel what I did, and what she did wasnt wrong. But it helps me understand them. I read a quote by Nietzche (sp? ) something like: "I can stand any how, if I have a why". SO it means if you have the wisdom of knowing <span class="italic">why</span> people do the things they do, it makes it a little easier to stand. This is true for me. But no, my MILs behaviour hasnt cancelled out my mums. Its just that seeing her in action makes me appreciate the good that my mum did do. She did bring us up to be independant (rather than dependant on her), open-minded, thirst for knowledge, and she has always let us siblings form a friendship, whereas MIL is threatened by this very concept, so divides and rules everyone. Interestingly, as fate would have it, SIL was going through a divorce around the time I met DH. She divorced and used her settlement money to come to the UK to learn English and take her mind off it. A little friendship started to blossom between us. DH an her had never had much of a relationship but I really encouraged them to (inviting her over etc) because my relationship with my brothers is so valuable. As it turns out SIL is <span class="italic">on</span> <span class="italic">my</span> <span class="italic">side</span> about the MIL thing!!! MILs divide and rule tactic has failed for the first time in her life, probably. Now im so pleased I encouraged the friendship and looked after her when she was down. It has served me well, and MIL doesnt have a leg to stand on.

That's great that your SIL is on your side Sakura. My mother's positive influences were very similar to your mother's, I could say all the same things about her - except that she has undermined the siblings' relationship by divide and rule (although I don't think it was necessarily conscious).

I have ordered the Artisists Way so will look forward to reading that. I was also interested to know which book on Nietsche you read as I got a lot of comfort from the bit about him in Alain de Botton's book "Consolations of Philosophy" (think that's the title).

It has taken me 2 days to read this brilliant thread, but it has been well worth it. I am so happy that I found it. As so many of you have said before me, it is so nice to know that I am not the only one who have "divorced" my parents. Very long story which I may post about later on tonight, once I have finished work, picked up children, fed hubby and children, and children are in bed.

You have all come such a long way, and you sound so much stronger than when you first started this thread. Big gold star especially to Pages for starting this thread. I am new here and was looking for a way to start a thread about parents (still have not figured out how to start a thread ).

Welcome maisemor [smil], and lol about the two days - that's not bad going. Will be interested to read your "story".

Sorry, typing too quickly - that was meant to be a

Hi maisemor,
So good to hear this thread is helpful to others.

Pages, Can you believe wed be comparing our mothers good points when this thread was started?!! We must have come a long way.
The Artists way has really hit the nail on the head for me. At first glance, its seems a bit simplistic, but a professor of mine once said "If you can explain something in simple terms, it means youve really understood it". The book tells you to do 2 main tasks. Ive started one of them, which is to write 3 pages of <span class="italic">anything</span> every morning. It explains it all in the book, but all I can say is that in my case, there has been a slow but definite improvement in the way I live my life since Ive started doing this.
THe Nietsche quote- I have no idea where that was from, somewhere random. But the book you mentioned by Alain de Botton sounds nice. Would you recommend it?

It feels a bit like one of those AA meetings "hi my name is Mai and I have divorced my parents" Not that I have ever been to one.

I fear this may be ridiculously long, but I just need to ramble a bit. You really don't have to read it .

I have not suffered as badly as any of you brave women/girls on here. I have not suffered physically. My parents are very good they do it mentally and very subtly (not sure if that is a word!!?)

I am the middle child of 3 (girls). I have always been the good/favourite child, as I was never complaining, always trying to keep the peace, always took my parents' side, could not understand what my sisters were going on about when they complained that my parents were being manipulative/controlling/evil etc. etc. Tried to make my sisters understand that our parents really does love us, and everything to do they do because they love us. Could not understand why they could not/refused to see it from my parents' point of view, because I saw them as good people. I actually fell out with both of them (sisters)and did not speak much with them, and when I did speak to them I took the "information" straight back to my parents so we could "dissect" it together and talk about how bad my sisters were.

I know now that this was my way of getting my parents' approval/attention/love. My parents' are happiest when they can talk about how everybody else is making the wrong choices, how stupid that makes them (the other people, never my parents) and why can't the other people just listen and do as my parents "advise" them to.

It took me 32 years to realise what kind of people my parents are, and it was quite a shock but also extremely liberating. After having giving birth to our second child, my husband and I decided to move back to my country for min. 2 years to see where we preferred to live Scotland or BlaBlaLand. We sold our house and my parents offered that we could stay in their house in one of their flats. We accepted this, we quickly discovered how wrong this decision proved to be.

We did not put our rubbish in the bins the right way. We did not close the doors correctly. We did not walk silently enough up and down the stairs (mainly aimed at our firstborn who was 4 months short of her 2 year old birthday).

Anyway, these 2 years were just a complete eyeopener for me as to how inconsiderate and selfish my parents are. The last straw came when my sister was leaving the father of her children. She came over with her youngest (almost 1 by then), went up to me first and told me and then went up to my parents and told them and asked if she could stay in one of the flats (more like a room with a bath). They reluctantly agreed to this for just this night. The next day she was told that she could not stay down there as it was too upsetting for my father (I have never understood that one myself so don't ask me to explain). They don't believe in parents splitting up, it is not good for the children. So this was their way of forcing her back to her partner. I said to her but you can come live with us, not ideal but it least you will have a bed to sleep in. She did not feel comfortable with that, my parents actually made her doubt herself yet again. Trust me her partner is not good for her, and my sister and her children are so much happier now that they have split up. I was then asked to come up, and I was told that I was not allowed to have my sister staying in THEIR flat. I was absolutely gobsmacked, and pointed out to them that they could not dictate who me and hubby had staying with us. To which they said that they do believe they have the right to, as the tax people do not know about us staying there as it is officially offices. I am sorry but that is really not my problem, we were paying rent for that flat and therefore I still believe that I can have whoever I choose over without having to ask the Landlord.

I asked them to say straight out if they were kicking me and my family out if we had my sister staying, but in their usual they suddenly realised that this was going to sound bad, so try to make me say that I was overreacting. Never once did they answer the question, and to me it is a very simple question (which should have been answered no). I went down spoke to hubby, and we decided to move 2 months earlier because you don't kick out your own daughter and grandchild who desperately needs to leave her partner.

Her son was away on camp, they used that as an excuse for her not being able to leave her partner as well!!?? This is the kid that hates it when his parents are fighting (every day, every time they see eachother) and runs away to hide or begs them to stop.

After that my husband once collected our son and his friend from nursery and when they got to the door, they met my mother and she only said hello in an extremely cold voice to my son and then walked away. I once myself was going out with my son, and the back door to the garden was open and I saw that my father was sitting out there so I let my son go out, but not a word was spoken on my father's behalf (my son did speak to him).

I did go up and try to sort this out one more time, with a list of questions so I would not loose track of things. I came away with all the things that they think is wrong with me and my family:

I am not a good mother
I do not clean enough (my mother lives for cleaning)
We are stupid for moving back to Scotland
We are wasting our lives (because we don't live it the way they want us to)
The list goes on but it is too depressing, and the one that I am good mother just hurt so badly. I know now that I am not, my children can give me a hug whenever they need one (or I need one), I tell them every day that I love them, they laugh, they play freely in every room of the house, they are not scared of us (we were not allowed to make any kind of noise until my dad was up and had had his breakfast in peace and quiet and was almost out of the door), they are healthy etc.

We still invited them to our daughter's birthday party and our farewell party, but they wrote her a card saying that sorry they can't make it because they are in the summer house (2 hours drive). They never said goodbye to me or my children. They just stayed in their summerhouse. Not once did they try to contact us by email (or phone whilst we were still in BlaBlaLand).

I am so sorry I really did not mean for it to be so long.

It's only my little sister and hubby that knows about all of this (and there is so much more).

It has been a little over a year now since I have spoken with my parents, their choice not mine. I have done everything I can to sort this out and have taken responsibility for my part in this mess, but until they own up to their responsibility then there will be no contact, and I sleep well at night knowing that.

First few months hard, not so much now. At least when I think of them now my pulse does not go up and I don't feel panicky anymore. I don't know if I would feel like that if I actually spoke with them or met them though.