My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Thanks Suburbia. Am feeling very tired and very sick but very happy! Only another 6 weeks until I'm out of the really worrying time.

Re the cost of therapy, that does sound like a lot to me, though perhaps it depends on what area of the country you're in. The BACP site Attila mentioned is very good as it not only lists all the therapists who are members of the association and their fees, but also gives details of all the different types of therapies. My aunt is a counsellor and it's the site she recommended to me when I asked her how best to find a therapist in my area. I can't afford it just at the moment, and don't think the early stages of pregnancy are the best time to be delving deep into all my issues with my mother, but think counselling would definitely help some time down the line.

Re sending a card or not, it's a difficult one. It seems a bit hypocritical, but I have sent my mother cards since our major bust-up last November, for exactly the reason you mentioned - not stooping to her level of pettiness - but also because I'm trying to maintain a semblance of a relationship with my brother and sister (though this may be futile, given that they see my mother regularly and are most definitely still under her control). Not to send cards would make me seem even worse in their eyes. So I've sent cards at Christmas, her birthday and even mother's day (after much soul-searching). They haven't been the chatty cards they would once have been - just happy whatever day, and my signature, no information about how we are or what we're up to (my sister and brother interrogate me like they're working to some sort of script whenever they see or speak to me, presumably on my mother's behalf). In the end you must do what feels right for you, not what you think might make her feel better. Personally, I felt strong and in control when I sent the cards because it was my decision and wasn't based on any guilt about her, but I am further away from my initial detachment from my mother than you are and it might be better for you to wait a while before having any contact with her. It's definitely true that a complete break allows you space to regain your strength and start to be who you want to be and not who your mother requires you to be. I do hope all this makes some sort of sense, morning sickness is definitely having an adverse effect on my brain function!

Sakura, wording it like that, yes I see it now.

The odd thing is tho, I have never had a big sense of self, but maybe it is bigger than I thought!

Surburbia

What are you hoping the card will achieve?

I wouldn't send one myself, as not getting a reply (which I wouldn't) would be another rejection & the girl inside cannot cope with any further rejection.

I don't see it as stooping to her level, by not sending one. I merely see it as telling her 'look how much you mean to me........nothing'

Yes sandcastles, I think everyone here has a strong sense of self.
You donT have to be all cheerful and light and happy to be a REAL person. In fact many confident-looking people have lots of insecurities, but they hide them well. My mum has a fantastic career, and is well-admired by colleagues for example. ALso, I read that a narcissist usually appears to have a very warm, friendly and attractive personality. They manage to fool a lot of people with this "public face". Sam Vaknin says he always wanted to take <span class="italic">that</span> person home with him, or forever live in the public view, because the narcissist is so different at home with family. He says that everyone is fooled when they first meet the narcissist. This happened with me and my MIL. I thought she was the mother I never had. She was so beautiful, warm and welcoming, but I now can see that she is completely <strong>cold</strong> and self-centred underneath it all. He says the reason that they have these two characters is because everything about them is <strong>fake</strong>. THe real person in them got lost years ago. Thats why they dont have empathy, and cant put themselves in another persons shoes-- because they are fake. They dont feel much, because the REAL person is hidden away inside them. He says that they cant stand people who are so obviously real, because they envy them, and then seek to destroy them.
That could really be one of the reasons why our mothers hate us- we were always so difficult to manipulate, and we could see them for the warped people that they are. Other people (your brother and sister) were more easily fooled.

We just have to build on that "real self" now and build up our confidence and self-esteem. That is my big job for the next few years. Then I want to work on the bits of my character I donT like very much, and keep them in check. And at the same time, I have tried to imagine what would make me happy (cozy home, a few more kids, calm family life, studying a language), and Im taking steps to make sure I get those things. Thats the biggest eff off to my mum, I think- just to be happy.

sorry, sam vaknin has a website on this disorder here

What you are saying makes so much sense....too much!

can you throw any light on why I walked out of 1 relationship with a narsasist (mother) right into another (person I thought was my best friend, who after 14 years of friendship & my heartbreak over poss never having kids, told me she resented my dd?)

Why figure it out once, only to become deeply embedded again. So deeply, I almost left my dh?

This is what I think.
I think that growing up with narcissistic mothers, we ended up with some specific personality traits.
These are Neediness and wanting approval from others, because we felt we could never please our mums. This means we try desperately to please people, just to be liked. It could be our boss, our friend or husband. Also, in my case, my mum always made me feel responsible for her crazy behaviour and I always felt I was to blame. So I always feel if something bad happens or if people aren`t enjoying themselves at a party /uncomfortable silences or whatever, that its kind of my fault and So in a nutshell, this is what happens:

1] We end up letting people treat us like shit because its all we know. We dont realise that you dont have to be treated like that, and that we actually have a choice. We can choose to spend time with people who respect us. We have the right to privacy, and the right to say no if someone asks us for something. But we dont realise this. Basically, we put up with stuff that 90% of the population wouldnt put up with. The kind of people that treat us like this are always going to be bullies (like your friend and my MIL). There is nothing we can do to change them. But its only when we stand up to them, that they eventually move onto the next victim. Then we have our chance to make some proper friends and have proper relationships with people who respect us and like us.

2] Even though we know we are being treated badly by people (like I was with my MIL), we desperately dont want to be abandoned. We are scared of what might happen, because our mothers have conditioned us to be scared and to put up with <span class="italic">anything</span>. In my case, I was so so scared of facing MIL, and I really dont know why because now that I`ve stood up to her, it seemed so easy all along. So it was all in my mind.

3] In psychology, they say that we try to recreate scenes from our childhood with other people. We do this because we hope that this time we have the power to make it turn out right, because were not a helpless child anymore. Bascially this means that "normal" people arent interesting to us, so we end up choosing the dodgy people.

We have to really want to change to alter these patterns. I havent tried therapy yet, but Ive used self-help books, and the internet, just to try to get some insight as to why I keep repeating the same mistakes.

Message withdrawn

Sorry to butt in here but I've been reading this thread over the last few days and some things have happened in the last few years that make me wonder if I'm a toxic mother and if I am.. what the fuck can I do to fix it. I'm really afraid that my inability to show or deal with emotions very well has caused irreparable (sp) harm to my children and I really dont know what to do

Sakura.........wow, that makes heaps of sense. I was nodding along with all of that. So very true, right down to the abandonment.

I am hoping I have changed they way I let people see me. I only have 1 really good friend here since we came, but she is so way off what my 'old' friend was like.

Thank You.

SuGaRCoAteDPoiSOn, are you able to tell us why you think this? I think it is a great sign that you realise not all is 'right'. If you can see this & are willing to change, IMO, you are not that toxic!

"that in spite of all this I still yearn for a mother figure and grieve the lack of that maternal, warm, nuturing, supportive prescence in my life. Damn I'm annoyed with myself, it's as if i'd almost wish to have a mother at any cost"

Oh how I relate to that, danae. I could have written it. I still want a mum....one I can chat too, share all my news with. But I don't want the one I have/had. I just have to make peace with the fact that I wasn't meant to have one who loved me. I do have a fantastic MIL tho.

That book, I think I would have either,

Sent it back, with a little note "I think it is YOU that needs this book more than I"
Or
"I think you sent me your book by mistake, as it didn't help you parent me very well, then I don't think I will use it..."

Or just wrote a little note "thank you for the book, dd was needing a new scribble pad"

But good on your for not reading it. Never think you need a book like this....you sound like you do a great job!

Lol at those comebacks sandcastle. I think they are all brilliant, but unfortunately they only work after we stop feeling angry at our mums. Like Pages said, I want to be at that grown up place where I can speak calmly to my mum without her affecting me at all. But we have to get rid of all the emotion in order to do this. I donT know if its worth it, or even whether Ill be alive long enough to reach that point, personally.

Thanks danae, for calling me wise. Thats nice because in real life I really dont feel wise, just confused, scared and angry most of the time (although much less so these days). Sometimes I think "what is the point?" I mean why were we born with such crap mothers? What on earth can we gain from this? But then I suppose the answer to that is wisdom and insight. I only know these things after having to live through them IYSWIM. I think this is one of the worst kinds of hell, because if you are in a war zone or something, at least you know that its not your <span class="italic">mother</span> inflicting the suffering on you. Your mother is the only person in the world who is <span class="italic">supposed</span> to protect you. When I hear of the suffering of refugees, I sometimes think "Ah, but at least your mother loves you, and that can make life just a little easier to tolerate" (Its wrong I know, because at least I have my health and beautiful DD, and so I should count myself lucky, but it doesnT quite work like that, does it)

SugarCoatedPoison,
I agree with sandcastles. You may have a lot of problems (like all of us on here), but after reading your post its unlikely that you are toxic.
Sorry to be crass, but there was a lady further down this thread (CAMy) who came on here and started saying that we were the ones with the problem, that we were the ones obsessed with control, and that we should just stop being so cruel to our mothers. Now that is classic toxic behaviour. Around the time she posted, a lot of the women on here were going through terrible times in real life, and to hear something like that is not helpful at best. But it was obvious that our thread was touching a nerve with her, and she tried to deny that any of our feelings were real, and that we were the ones with the problem. Classic "blaming the victim". I will hazard a guess that she is a toxic person, to think that she can do something like that.
But you have the gift of being able to reflect, and consider where you might be going wrong. Our mums don`t have this. This is a real gift. Maybe get some self-help books for yourself from Amazon, or try to get some therapy on the NHS, to work out where you need to go from here.

Sakura, I'm am no longer angry with her. More than anything I feel very sad & upset that she never loved me.

However, I am not at that grown up place yet. That was proved when I broke down after being ignored. I guess that little girl inside me needs to know she loved/loves me....even when I know the truth.

I know what you mean. ITs really awful isnt it. Have you seen the film "Monster" with Charlize Theron? Basically the woman had a shit life, and it drove her to murder. But what struck me was what the director said. SHe said that theres no "prize" for surviving a hellish childhood. Its just shit and thats it. Most of the time, people dont even gain insight- they just repeat the cycle with their own children.
SOmetimes I feel like that. Books say things like "YOu`re a survivor", and I just think, "but I want my mum", I really do.

But others say that having children is a healing process for them. DD is only 7 months, but in my case I think she is definitely part of my healing process. Firstly, she`s a girl, so I can take care of her the way I wanted to be taken care of. Also, I can see that there was never an excuse for my mum to treat me the way she did. After having DD, I can see that it was all my mum. There is nothing a little child can do to evoke hatred. Even if a child is angry, they obviously are not getting their needs met somehow, and as the adult, its our job to try to make it better for them.

I canT find the quote from the Continuum concept, but she says something like: There is nothing more pathetic in this world, than a mother striking a child, because the child cant provide the mother with the love that the mother craves.
That reminds me of my mum. Its like I was the one who was born to "mother" her and be there for her. But now Ive had a daughter that cant work anymore. First of all, not only is there no-one to mother me, but I cant divide my mothering between my mum and my daughter. Thats is what would happen if I stayed in contact with her. A mothers job is to mother, not to suck all the energy out of her daughter. So I think, well, its bad enough that I dont have anyone to mother me, but Im going to make damn sure that nothing gets in the way of me trying to mother my daughter in a proper way. My daughter needs a stress-free and strong mother, not a miserable nervous wreck.

Hi all, hi sakura...wow...I keep reading bits of your posts out to dh...very insightful and thought provoking. You seem to have done alot of thinking and reading lately. And agree with what you just said. I've nearly hit out at my dd...after a few weeks of being woken up 2 or 3 or 4 times a night, she was unaware thank goodness but I did realise I had trying to 'cope' alone instead of asking dh for support, which I did promptly. Haven't been back to that place, I ask help way before I reach that point now. Lesson learned.

And missed the camy incident entirely. Liked the replies to her from everyone.

xx

Anyone know what's happened to Dior who posted on here a while back? ALL her posts are deleted?

Hi Ally, there are a couple of threads asking "Where is Dior?" in Chat and she posted to say she'd had all her posts deleted for personal reasons (if you use the search all messages page using her name you should be able to find these). Hope she's okay.

Thanks bearsmom

Just concerned me. Thought that is what I would do if I found anyone I knew found me on here...maybe I'm paranoid...I hope she's okay too.

How are you doing now? Still sick feeling? Just been speaking to a pg friend today...brings it all back... (The good bits, not the sicky bits!). Any contact from mother?

She's changed names. I won't say to what because "they" might be watching (narrows eyes suspiciously). But she's still posting actively on a similar thread.

Hi Annie

Thats good to know!

You know, naive as I am, I never thought that other people looked in on this thread...

Hi Ally, not feeling so sick now, but am ravenously hungry most of the time and veer between being so exhausted I can hardly walk and then being full of energy. I have what feels like forever to go until I get to 12 weeks, but I'm just trying to stay relaxed and philosophical, and get busy with all the things I won't have time for once the baby comes

No contact from my mother (long may it continue!). I am going to have to inform my parents I'm pg at some point (as I've already told my brother, but sworn him to temporary secrecy, and also want to tell my sister at some point), but won't do it until I'm well past the 12 week mark, and of course there's a danger that will elicit some sort of communication. Guess I'll have to deal with that when it happens. I really like not having any contact with them, it's such a relief.

Am glad that Dior is okay and still around under another identity. Like you I naively never really thought anyone else looked at this thread.

hiya everyone.. thank you for not castigating me yet. I've ordered lots of books from Amazon on the subject and I really want to fix things.

Looking back.. I realise that I did not put my children first at all times and made excuses for my own inadequacy. I didn't bring my children up to feel nurtured and protected, I believe I made them feel insecure and unloved. It wasn't deliberate.. I just didn't know how to be a grown up. I had real bad depression for about 4 years starting when my oldest was 8 years old and the youngest 6.

When I found myself on my own with with them, I didn't know what to do, how to be a parent or how to take the responsibility for them - I had married their father when I was 17 and he was 42 (but that's a whole other story) I can see now that I had so little faith in my own ability that I would allow other people to 'parent' them as I thought they knew better than me. As my depression got worse, I became even more passive and in the end my kids were virtually parenting themselves and in some ways taking care of me too.. as I would rarely venture out of my bedroom other than to use the bathroom.

I have always found it very difficult to be demonstrably affectionate with my children, my daughter in particular and I believe I am having some memories coming back to me which might explain why... although it's not completely clear yet - I know I've blocked an awful lot of my childhood out as I have almost no memories. I block even day to day stuff out and am very forgetful. We see a family therapist and I also see her on my own and she's trying to help me unravel some of this stuff.

They are now 15 and 16 and while the younger one seems fine, although he's still very caring and protective of me, my 16 year old self harms to the extent that she spent the last few days in intensive care after managing to open her veins four times in 2 days. She cuts, overdoses, tries to asphyxiate herself and anything else you can think of at every given opportunity with the result that she's been in a psychiatric unit for the last 6 months and has been sectioned under the mental health act. She knows that the injuries she inflicts on herself are potentially fatal and she says she doesn't care. That she wants to die but she can't explain why.

I am a toxic parent and I don't want to be.

No honestly, youre not toxic. If my mother could even have a fraction of the insight you have, it would make me very happy. Its great that you are seeing a family therapist. EVen Im still in a bit of denial, and I dont go to see one. Me and DH are talking about it, but I have to get over my embarrasment of admitting I have to go (I think this is a British thing, by the way), and a little part of me thinks, well maybe its not <span class="italic">that</span> bad. But I really do need to go TBH. As I read your post, I was just amazed at how backward society has become that people donT trust the mothers ability to mother her own children. That other people were incompetent enough to even put the idea in your head that they could parent your children better than you. Its shocking really. The COntinuum concept mentions this, and says that the way doctors, MILs, grandmothers, society all interfere with the womans instinct means that she does eventually lost trust in herself, and then she loses confidence and self-esteem. NObody can parent your children better than you.
Its definitely not too late for you, because Im 26, and Im still waiting and praying for my mum to notice that she may have a problem. And even after everything shes done(downright abuse, so much worse than you), as soon as she does, Ill forgive her in an instant. So I just want to say, that its really better late than never.

Sugarcoatedpoison, can I salute you for an incredibly honest and brave post! Oh and please change your name itdoesen't suit you! [smile

Thanks you both.. I think I am toxic.. just that maybe it's a bit less evil cos it was unintentional, however the effect has been the same.

The family therapist isn't great, because it's mostly about my daughter's self harming and ways to cope with that but the therapist noticed a few times that I couldn't remember what we had talked about in the previous session and that I really struggle with remembering even most basic things. If it aint written down somewhere.. it's not likely to stay in my head! I have some very hazy recollections of things and very clearly remember telling my mum about them and her telling me not to be so stupid.. so and so would never do a thing like that So therapist reckons i blocked some childhood memories as a way of self preservation and it became a habit and now I even block those things I need to be able to remember.

My own mother wasn't toxic I dont think.. she was just so busy with working to keep a roof over our heads that she didn't have time for me or any kind of silly nonsense. She wasn't a huggy type person either but I think that's because she never had that from her own parents.

I've got a lot of work to do to sort things out and I just hope I've got the strength to do it before it's too late. I still have the depression and mild agoraphobia, and I'm currently being investigated for some physical health problems too, so it wont be easy but with all the resting I'm supposed to do at least I'll have lots of time to read