My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hi Ally, any contact this week? I've heard nothing from mine but a couple of things have made me think about her a lot. First I came out of ds's nursery with him at the end of one of last week's sessions to find that the wake for one of my parents friends was happening just down the street (very popular guy, huge number of people in black, so didn't take me long to realise what was going on). Very strange feeling - not sure if I was dreading bumping into them or willing it to happen. Either way, we didn't see them and on reflection that's a relief. The second thing was the mum of someone I went to primary school with dying this week, aged two years older than my mother. Just makes me think about what happens when they get ill and die. Do I want to have not seen her or my father at all, think I would feel very guilty and sad that we hadn't managed to come to some sort of resolution or at least exchanged a few vaguely polite words. But then I realise that I almost destroyed myself last year trying to achieve some sort of resolution with them both, and failed completely. I wonder if there's a way of keeping them at arm's length while still keeping in touch, but in my heart of hearts I know they wouldn't settle for that. They'd want to be totally in our lives all over again, dictating, criticising, totally controlling ... and I know it would get worse as ds got older and they started in on him. Not going to let that happen. So, stalemate really.

What you say about stopping the brick wall sounds like real progress, if I've understood what you mean. That you're not blocking out the debate in your head about whether you've done the right thing any more? I'm sure that's better than putting the brick wall up. Even if it's there, in your subconscious you still know the emotions exist and blocking things out never works in the end. Reading what you write about your parents, I agree, they desperately need to grow up. They have no right to expect you to be responsible for them, and no way are you being spiteful , THEY are the spiteful ones! I don't think you should feel like you should become the "adult" of the family and set them an example (and you don't need their say so on whether you're an adult or not, that's a decision you get to make yourself and you sound very adult, responsible, intelligent to me). I think you should focus on yourself, your dh and dd, and live your own life the way you decide is best. It sounds to me as if your parents and sister have been completely foul to you and don't actually deserve to have you in their lives. Sorry, getting really about their behaviour having just re-read the last few lines of your message. As for having their respect, as an outsider I'd say it's probably not worth having, but I can completely see why you want it. I am the same with my parents, I desperately want them to accept that their behaviour towards me over the years has been wrong and highly damaging, and that, although I'm just human and not perfect, I am a nice person worthy of being treated properly, but I know that they never will. People who can say and do such wicked and malicious things as our mothers have may never see reason and I think we're only going to do ourselves harm by actively trying to get it. We should live our own lives and perhaps some miracle will happen and we'll get acceptance and understanding from our mothers one day (brave words, wish I could listen to my own common sense in the middle of the night when I'm feeling angry and down about all of us).

On a slight side note, I'm thinking of trying homeopathy to help treat the emotions (especially anger) that have been triggered by all this. I know someone who had homeopathic treatment for grief and said it worked really well, and I took a hom. remedy for a stomach virus this week, which is also used to treat anger, and felt incredibly serene within minutes!

Hello

Thanks for the welcome. I am feeling a bit better this week - back in the land of the living at least. I had an email from my dad which has helped - I was worrying that he had also cut off contact with me as I hadn't heard from him but he said he had been ill with a cold and wrote a long email saying that my mother suffers from destructive narcisistic personality disorder, and so he reckons she can't help herself.

My story is nowhere near as bad as most of yours, but I think you are probably right that it might help to get it out of my head, so here goes:

My mother has always been a very negative, controlling person, but our relationship has only really broken down since I've had my children (dd 2.5 years and ds 12 months. She came over after my dd was born, we had a small row over nothing, which she blew up into a huge deal and didn't talk to me, literally, for most of the rest of the week until my brother came over. Relationship was a bit strained after that, until we decided to have dd christened catholic (dh is catholic) - religion has never been a big deal with either of our families, but she went beserk about it and refused to come. The day after the christening I miscarried. She said "was it planned? (yes) very soon wasn't it - you were obviously just thinking of your career". I just said I had to go and put the phone down - I couldn't believe she could be so callous. I still then made an effort to keep in touch, for my dad and grandma's sake, although I heard from my grandma and mutual friends that she was hoping me and dh would end up divorced, so that then she could "be there for me" (she blames dh for everything and also loves crises where she can be at the centre of everything). She came over when my ds was born and my parents then came on holiday with us, and she really took over everything with regard to the kids - made me feel like she was the mum, not me. But even when we do have moments of superficial civility I am so tense waiting for the next thing I do wrong - sometimes I don't even know what I have done wrong, she just doesn't speak to me so I have to go over everything in my head, or ask my dad what I've done... Then we got ds christened, so again big row and refusal to come. Then at my dad's request I invited them to ds birthday. She spent the whole weekend moaning and sniping, and blanked dh if me or my dad weren't in the room. I eventually lost it on the last day over something I should have let go (she argued with me over a discipline issue in front of dd) but at least it got everything out, and she came out with all this venom even going back to something i did when I was 13 (no idea what, but apparently "what goes around comes around" so I guess I'll get what's coming to me). It is very difficult to argue with her as she is completely irrational and a pathological liar - even though my dad was there saying no, that's not true. She believes that we got the kids christened deliberately to spite her - it was all about getting at her. wtf? very narcissistic.

But even though I know I am a happier, more confident person without her in my life the thought of not seeing her again makes me feel ill. Like you bearsmum, I can't believe this is final. I am on the waiting list for a counsellor, so hopefully that will help.

Sorry for being so long - I only meant to write a few lines, but it's very hard to condense it once you start!

thanks for listening/reading

Hi all, just want to welcome bearsmom and suburbia. I have to stay off this thread for a while because its a little too raw at the moment. I am having problems with my MIL now who has turned out to be a toxic parent...
DH has FINALLY confronted her, and Im staying away from her for a while, but its taking up all of my emotional energy at the moment. Im mainly feel dissapointed and hurt that she is the way she is, but it cant be helped, and I wonT be bullied (after surviving my mum, a confrontation out with MIL is easy, but still unpleasant)

Hi Suburbia,

The most informative website I've ever come across on NPD is this one:-

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html

You may want to read that at some stage if you haven't come across this already.

Hi Bearsmom, how are things with you?

2 cards, we have gone from 'granny and grandad' cards (last summer) to daughter, to 'mum and dad' to just 'mum' and now its signed just her name and no 'love from' or 'all my love' etc. Just 'thinking of you all'. Any thoughts? Maybe its a positive step? Her thought process seems to be moving in a better direction than before. Strangely I am more comfortable with the lack of sentiment. Sentiment from her angers me due to her actions never living up to it. 'Thinking of you' seems more honest and acceptable to me. I can live with that. Anyway, why am I thinking of this? I did ask for 'no contact no matter how hard that may be for you', obviously too hard for her. As usual, her actions are speaking louder than words. She still doesn't give a damn about what I want and need from her. So trash what I said above. She still views what she wants as more important than what I want.

Have you had any more contact? How is your son taking it? I think you were brave to wish to bump into them at the wake, I shake at the thought of going to the town where they live in case I bump into them. But I do know despite myself I look forward to post to have that contact. But the things that come through are only positive. If I'm back in contact it becomes negative again. As for them getting old, well it happens to us all, and we all get what we deserve in the end. I don't honestly know how I will react when one of them dies, I used to think I would spit on the grave of my mother, but I'm past the anger now my feelings are gradually creeping back. I'm pretty sure I would feel loss. The issue is I'm still not sure of my decision. If I was I think it would be a lot easier. Try reading 'divorcing a parent' by beverley engel. I found it incredibly helpful and supportive. And it gives good advice on how to cope with an ill or dying parent.

Hi Suburbia

So sorry that you miscarried. How could your mother say those things? And as to waiting for you to divorce so she could 'be there for you'!!! Read that article that Attila left (thanks!) how you live with that... With a mother like yours, who needs enemies? Seriously I was very shocked at her behaviour. I cannot imagine anyone living with someone like that, even at a distance. And how does your father put up with it? Glad you still have that contact. Don't let him or your grandma put pressure on you to go back to your mother tho, it does more harm than good for them to pressure you. What are their motives for asking? Because surely it can't be because your mother is upset at your cutting her off after the heartbreaking things she said?

Got to go, baby waiting! Keep posting as and when you need too, it helps to read other peoples experiences.

xxx

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Hi danae,
Interesting that you mention we cut our mothers out at a crucial point in our life. In my case it was around the time of my wedding. Even though she has a vile temper, was physically and emotionally abusive throughout my childhood, I still wanted her. But when she started making the wedding all about her and saying to people "why is she doing this to me, after all I`Ve done for her" (seriously-thats what she was saying), I finally realised something was wrong. Then after having DD of course, it confirmed to me that the feelings she had towards me were all in her head, and nothing to do with me "evoking" the hatred in her.
I realised her desire to control me was much stronger than her desire to see me happy.

But the HARDEST thing Ive ever had to do IN MY LIFE, was to finally realise my mum is never going to change. I had to give up being the eternally hopeful child. Then the second hardest thing Ive ever had to do was to ACT on that knowledge i.e go ahead with my wedding, regardless of what my mother wanted or was saying, and regardless of whether she was actually going to turn up. That was tremendously difficult and took colossal willpower to carry through.(She came to the church, with a face like stone, then left while everyone was going to the reception- unpredictability is one form of control)
I think I nearly had a nervous breakdown TBH. Around that time I would spend hours just staring at the wall.

I think you should "have a break" from your mum. It doesnT have to be forever, but you need to have a period of time that is just for you, without your mum. I just read Susan Forward, and she says that guilt is only appropriate if youve done something wrong.
I think the "breaking away" is something I had to do before I could start looking after myself and DD properly. It is easy to totally underestimate the energy that these narcissistic people suck out of us. And when they are out of our life (as difficult as that is to achieve), it is eventually like looking at the world through new eyes and a lighter body. Everything seems easier, and life seems more enjoyable. This is extra energy that you can focus on your children instead of on an ageing woman who is NEVER going to be pleased no matter what you do. When we put energy into our kids, we get it back five times over. When we put energy into our mums, we just get pain in return.

If our mothers die before we make this change, I think its WORSE, not better. As you say, you are battling against the voice in your head now, not the frail woman who is your mother. But if she dies before you can confront her, I personally believe, it wont be for the best. The problem wont go away when she dies, for example, but your chance to really face your fear will be gone i.e to acknowledge her disapproval, anger or abandonment. I think facing up to her validates your feelings. That is her who has the problem, not you. That nothing you could ever have done differently would have changed the person she is and most importantly, by facing up to her, because it is so frightening, you are showing yourself that she is wrong, and are unlikely to repeat the same mistake with your daughter. Put it this way, its so frightening and painful to do, that at least if we do make the same mistake as our mothers, at least we have some insight into helping the relationship with our daughters.

Sorry to sound a bit forceful. Of course I really don`T know what is right for you, danae. I can only relate my experiences, and hope they can be useful to you.

Even though standing up to my mum was hugely symbolic for me, my learning and healing process is continuing all the time. And I cant move onto the next phase until Ive completed the previous one.
For example, I have been having problems with MIL. She`s overcontrolling, overbearing and critical. She uses money to emotionally blackmail people, i.e by giving hugely generous gifts, she thinks she can ask what she likes of that person. If I was still wrapped up in my mum, there would be no way I could deal with MIL. But I realised a couple of things

1. I wouldn`t treat anyone the way she was treating me
2. If she wants to buy my soul with money, its going to cost her more than she can ever afford i.e. my soul is priceless
3. My guilt and obligation to her are misplaced. My need for approval from others goes back to my childhood, and she was using my weaknesses (to be accepted and loved) to her advantage. This is NOT the kind of person I want to be over-involved with.
4. Changing behavioural patterns is frightening, but me and DH were on the verge of divorce over this. Whats more important, divorcing or standing up to my MIL?

So Ive stood up to her, and havenT seen her since (about a month). I feel brilliant, and am reclaiming my time and my autonomy. I could not have stood up to her if I had my mother to deal with. There is only so much energy a person has.
All this has freed up energy to spend on looking after myself, and DD (with a bit left for DH)

Ill have a break for now, but because its quite cathartic to write this all down in our little "therapy" thread, Ill probably come back soon and write more.

And isn`t it interesting that almost all of us have a daughter as our firstborn. Amazing, really,

Sakura...hear hear! Nicely put!

Danae, glad your here. I shouted at my year old dd too, horrible, but asked dh for help (something I find hard to do) and got it and started yoga. Helped a lot!

I have been in therpy 2.5 years, impressed at your 7 years. Don't know about you but for my therapist its like blood from a stone trying to get an emotion from me!

For me splitting from mother helped. I'm going to repeat Sakura here, it clears your vision, as the separation time grows you see more clearly. I suppose at first your looking at something a cm from your nose and she's all blurry, 6 months later she's much clearer as if she's just across the room and you can examine her at will. Sounds a bit medical that! But distance is a great thing. My anger went, I became a calm person and the stress all went away at having to pretend I was happy to be around her and my father and sister.

gotta go!!

xxx

It's great to see this thread still going. Hi to all the new posters who have been brave enough to share.

I left the thread after a trauma with my niece (I think I have posted a small piece about it further down) and couldn't get back into it for some time.

But I have been reading thru in small amounts. I have just confided in my friend here in Oz what happened just before I left the UK & it all to the fore again & I am feeling pretty shitty about it. I so wanted her to say Hi (she blanked me in the Post office, knowing full well I was emigrating - save you hunting out the explanation.) to show it meant she cared. I still don't understand how she can let her youngest child leave the country & not even try & say good bye....how could she do that to me?

Oh Sandcastles, how awful! She sounds angry, bitter and very damaged, but you have to keep telling yourself that it's NOT your fault. Her behaviour comes from within her and only she can take responsibility for it. But I know how awful it feels to live with such feelings of hostility from one's mother and that recovery from the trama caused by our mothers seems to come in waves, one day or week I feel fine, but another something will set me off and I'll feel depressed for days. It's very possible your mother regrets blanking you before you left, and all the dire things she's done to you, but isn't emotionally evolved to admit it to herself or anyone else (if she's anything like my mother she's NEVER wrong ). She'll have a life of regret and guilt to look back on but you'll be able to look back with pride that you protected yourself and your dcs and feel genuinely good about yourself as a mother. I just re-read your post about your niece, such an unimaginably tragic thing to happen, I hope she is doing okay.

Hi Ally, I'm doing really well at the moment (this thread helps so much), and hope you are too. The card thing is weird isn't it? I've had a few with no name at the top and no sign-off at the bottom too (and absolutely no contact at all at Christmas, so much for peace and goodwill!). Really not sure what she was trying to say. We've now moved on to a birthday card to me that actually had my name at the top and "love from" at the bottom!!!! I feel quite happy with things as they are at the moment, life feels very peaceful and I'm concentrating on enjoying life on my terms, without her voice in my head anymore, let alone her actual presence in my life. Our only contact is cards - I sent her a birthday card and she sent me one - and that's the way I'd like it to stay. I do wonder if this is a cop out, but I suppose I feel like the peace is being maintained and that's fine by me becuase at the moment there are bigger priorites in my life than her. She's dominated for so long, it's time she stayed in the background for a while. From her point of view, the card sending is probably to do with keeping up appearances more than anything else. We live in the next town over from my parents, I sometimes go there and bump into the mothers of my old schoolfriends, who are still friends with my mother, so I suppose when they see her and say "I saw X the other day" she can at least make some pretence that she has a vague idea that I'm still alive! And appearances are everything for my mother.

DS is coping okay, though he does ask about them very occasionally. He's too young to understand so at the moment I just say they're very busy and we're busy too and leave it at that. They sent him some chocolate at Easter, and I gritted my teeth and gave it to him. And I send them thank you letters for anything they send, with a note saying "hope you are both well", but not sharing any information about us or what we're up to or how we are. My mother would take anything like this as an invitation to contact us further and I don't want to encourage that. And I realise this is controlling behaviour on my part! But it's with good reason. I'm pretty convinced that my miscarriage last year was caused by the massive stress my mother was causing me which, by the time I miscarried, had gone on for seven months and culminated in her ultimatum that I had to start seeing my father and pretend his affair had never happened, and I've just found out I'm pregnant () so have to do all I can to protect myself now. Haven't told anyone in RL (apart from DH obviously!) and it's nice to be able to share it.

Welcome back Sakura. Sounds like you've had a tough time with your MIL but good for you for standing up to her the way you have. I like your phrase "the eternally hopeful child", that puts it so well.

Danae, hi and welcome. I completely agree with Sakura and Ally that you need to take a break from your mother. It doesn't necessarily mean cutting her out completely, just getting some distance between you and her and making sure that you are the one deciding what your boundaries are with her rather than her setting them. Don't see her out of guilt. Give yourself some time and space away from her and I can almost guarantee you will start to feel better. I haven't spoken to or seen my mother since last November when I had a massive row with her, which was the culmination of an awful year for me. It's been a rollercoaster since then but I definitely feel much more up than down these days. As you'll see from the above, my mother and I communicate with cards on birthdays and that's it. As the months have gone by I've started to feel much calmer, although I still have my moments. I've also managed to conquer her voice in my head. It had always been there, criticising me, putting me down (my subconscious was doing her dirty work for her!), and it got worse for a month or so after I cut contact with her, but it's now gone. My strategy was to become much more conscious that it was there and to tell it to go away (that's the polite version), and I've had to go about creating more of my own rules for living and have been able to reject a lot of the things she expected me to believe. I simply hadn't realised how much I'd been bullied into following so many of her rules, and being bothered about so many of the petty things that concerned her. So you can get rid of the voice, and acknowledging your mother is not a positive influence in your life and getting some distance from her could be the first steps.

I totally relate to shouting with unwarranted venom and rage. I've done the same to DS and seen his shock, and realised that I'm following the patterns my mother followed with me - shouting at me with pure fury (she has admitted to putting her face close up to mine and literally screaming at me when I was about 3 and my sister about 1 because I had asked her a question when my sister was crying and she'd simply flipped). I'm trying really hard not to care about the unimportant things and to stay calm as much as possible. I still have a lot of anger to get out, and I want to do it before dc no 2 comes along (that's with fingers crossed that this one makes it). Thank you all for posting. This thread helps me so much as I really can't talk to anyone in RL about this stuff. You are all stars. xxx

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Hi Danae, I will keep myself safe, I promise. I am enough out of her thrall now and any trust I had in her is completely gone, so I always assume she'll act in her best interests above anyone else's and hence I'm keeping away from her. She wasn't pleased about the pregnancy I lost last year, so I'm sure she'll take no joy in this one. I don't plan to tell her or my siblings (who I don't see often anyway) until well into the pregnancy when I'm sure I'm past the danger time, and I guess I'll also have to make it clear that a new baby doesn't herald any change in our relationship. There's no way my mother or father will ever change, so I won't be exposing my dcs to them.

I can completely understand the reasons you give for maintaining contact with your mother for now. Are there any ways that you can help to insulate yourself from her in the meantime? I read a book recently (called something like When you and your mother can't be friends) and I'm sure there were some strategies in there for maintaining contact but taking back more of the power and minimising the negative impact on your life. I'll scan it later and post anything that looks useful.

And good luck with the move. We moved out of a city to a country town almost two years ago and it was a great thing to do for ds. I miss the buzz of the city a bit, but we can always go for a day and then come back to peace and quiet and fresh air.

It's interesting what you say about having a feeling of dread about making the break from your mother. I've had the same feeling, mainly a dread that by minimising her involvement in my life I'm somehow setting myself up for the same treatment from my child(ren) in the future. Crazy, I know, and I think it might be my brain creating what I know my mother would say ("you ungrateful child. Just you wait until your children reject and disobey you and see how it feels. After all I've done for you ..." etc etc). I also get the tenuous happiness thing, which I think comes from the fact that my mother could sometimes be lovely and kind, but it never lasted and I was always waiting for the next cruel comment or next manipulation. It's better now, and the longer I stay away from her I think the better I'll feel. But then I remember that she is perpetuating patterns that were established by her mother and probably her grandmother before her and I feel a twinge of sympathy for her. But in the end we all have to be responsible for our own actions and she is completely unable to see that hers have been wrong or to get involved in any sort of constructive self-analysis. Good grief, I'm going on today. Must go and do some work!

bearsmom, I am not sure how she feels. I do know the instant she wakled out of the post office she called my sister & bragged about ignoring me. She still thinks it's all my fault, she doesn't think she has done any wrong. She raised 4 children, 3 don't speak to her. But it tells her nothing.

I was fine with it all, if you read my previous posts, it reads like I'm good, like it can't touch me. We stopped speaking 15 years ago, so it isn't like it was last year or anything.

I was having a bad day yesturday & re hashing it all. I guess I let it get to me again. But it still pulls me so low. Not that fact that I don't have a mother, but the fact that how can she just walk past me like she doesn't know me. When she knows it is her last chance? How can a mother reject her child like that?

I just can't comprehend that..... I just can't.

& congratulations to you. I had answered you with out reading all your psot & have just re read it. I hope you have a happy healthy pregnancy.

My niece is ok, that is about as much as we can hope for. She keeps asking to come here & I would have her in a hearbeat, but they just cannot afford it, we aren't in a position to help.

Her mum is due any day now, which just makes it harder for her & their relationship isn't great. (her mum is my stepdad's daughter, so just my step sister & we don't get along at all) So I think that will be hard for her.

That's shocking, Sandcastles. Even I, with my "always try to give people the benefit of the doubt" tendencies, can't find anything positive to think about someone who would blank their own daughter and then brag about it. I guess some mothers just really were never cut out to be mothers and should never have done it. Sorry you were having a bad day yesterday, but hope today is better.

Bearsmom, I do feel better, thank you. It certainly helps to get it out. I do tell dh, but all he says is 'don't worry about it, don't dwell, etc' but sometimes it's not enough, you know? Sometimes I want him to say something else, I don't know what, but more than just dismissing my feelings!

Hello all

Congratulations Bearsmom - hope you enjoy the pregnancy. And nice to hear from you all again - I've been a bit busy recently as my two dc have had chicken pox - one after another so we've had a long time in quarantine! I have been busy reading some of the books you recommended though. Read "children of the self absorbed", which was quite depressing, but probably very true. Also read "you're wearing that" by deborah tannen, which was excellent - explains the nuances of conversation and how critical mothers can be even when it isn't apparent in what they say, more how they say it.

There were a couple of things that I wanted to ask your advice on - there isn't really anyone else I can ask as no-one else really understands.

The first is about therapy - after reading about all of your recommendations to get some, I got a referral from my gp. I will get some (about 6 sessions) on the NHS, but not til the autumn as there is a long waiting list. He also referred me to a private therapist so I didn't have to wait, but it's £111 per session (45 minutes). Is this reasonable? It seems like a lot to me, and I'm not sure I could really spend that much money on something like this.

My other dilemma is that it's my mother's birthday next month. Do I send her a card to show that I am not stooping to her level, or ignore it completely? Pretty sure that whatever I do she will be mad (I don't care or I'm making her feel guilty - she said that when I sent an invitation to my ds christening that it was emotional blackmail - err, no, just an invite!). So do I forget about her and send a card as I know it'll please my dad? Or should I stop trying to please them both so much??

argh - keep going round in circles and feel so cross that she still has such a hold over me that I am worrying about this! maybe that therapy really would be worth the money .

thanks again for your support and help

Sandcastles, your mum is just shocking. Does it help if I say that its not you that she hates, but herself? I think its true that we simply cant love others until we love ourselves. Thats why its so important for <span class="italic">us</span> to cut our mums out so we can focus on improving our self esteem and making sure we dont pass this onto the next generation. Can I quote you something from "The COntinuum Concept" that helped me a little. Its about a Venezualan tribe who treat their babies according the the "continuum" of our species i.e babies need to be held, rocked, to suckle, to be responded to properly and their cries to be respected. They are born this way and are born already expecting these things. Our babies don`t know they are born into a modern age with dodgy childrearing techniques. (Many people might disagree with me on this, saying that its another "blaming the mother" syndrome for all the problems in the world, but it makes sense to me, and helped me understand that my mother is a product of her upbringing)

Here is a passage describing the effect of a mother on the child if she has no empathy. I picked out some bits because so much of it is useful:

"none can free him from his funamental assumption that [his mother] loves him, that she must love him, somehow, in spite of everything. Hatred for a mother (or mother figure) is the expression of a losing battle to free oneself of that assumption....

One cannot therefore become independent of one`s mother except through her, through her playing her correct role, giving the in-arms experience and allowing one to graduate from it upon fulfillment...

But one can never free oneself from a non-contimuum mother. Need for her cannot but continue. One can only struggle on the hook, like the atheist who shakes his fist at God`s throne in the heavens shouting "I do not believe in you!"....

Dr John Bowlby, of Londons Tavistock Clinic, was commissioned by the World Health Organisation to make a report on the fate of children homeless in their native countries, with regard to their state of mental health. His subjects were the most extreme cases of maternal deprivation and numbered in the thousands. The information he collected from workers in the field covered many years and situations: children in institutions from infancy, some in foster homes, others neglected by their own parents; babies and children in hospitals for critical months or years in their early development, wartime evacuees, and victims of every sort of circumstance that kept them from even that exiguous degree of maternal contact known as normal. Causes other than emotional deprivation resulting from lack of motheringwere eliminated in the study only after scrupulous examination of the evidence. The picture painted by the descriptions and statistics in the report is one of the most horrendous personal agonies, multiplied beyond the power of the mind to conceive, and chronicles the empty lives that follow the deprivations, theaffectionless characters` of the most grossly deprived, those who have lost the ability to form attachments, which is to say, to know the value of life iself, ever. It documents the torments of those still active in the battle for their birthright measure of love, lying, stealing, attacking brutally or clinging with the intensity of leeches to mother figures, regressing to infantile behaviour in the hope of being treated at last as the infant that is still within them starving for its experience. It records the perpetuation of these desperate people as they produce children they cannot love, who grow up like themselves, anti-self, antisocial, incapable of giving, destined forever to go hungry"

So our mothers need for control is based on fear. A dreadful fear of being abandonned, stemming back to their childhood and the way <span class="italic">they</span> were raised. Thats why their desire to control us is <span class="italic">much</span> stronger than their desire to see us happy. My mum was there for me if I was in trouble, so I thought she was a good mum. But my wedding symbolised my <span class="italic">happiness</span> not needines, and she couldnt handle it. She tried to wreck it because me being happy meant that she had less control. She would much rather I phoned her and told her something dreadful had happened to me, and I need her.

Suburbia, I dont know about therapy. Im thinking about doing it myself, but havent got round to it yet. If I were you, Id forget about sending cards for a while. My advice is generally always just to have break from her. All contact. You need time to recuperate. Its not like youre never going to send her a card again. You may well do so in the future. But right at this moment, you need time to think, so you can cut off contact. As you said, whatever you do will be wrong anyway. You might think, "well, shell know shes upset me if I dont send a card". But actually thats not really true. You`re not sending her a card because you want time apart to place your thoughts in order. Its nothing to do with her, really. You might not be sending anyone cards at this moment, because you feel you want to take stock of your life.

Sajura, it does, but ony a bit.

She clearly loves my sister tho & my brother. She would never blank them...it has never been her great secret that she didn't want me. I guess the whole post office incident just confirmed it all again.

I am right with it now, the week I posted I was feeling ill, so it all came up again.

Sakura

hi Sandcastles, I doubt she loves your brother and sister in a motherly kind of way. I mean, she is not a well-balanced person, and its not as if she suddenly becomes balanced when it comes to them. Its sounds more likely to me that she uses them as pawns and for some reason their characters are much more easy to influence than yours. So they are easily controlled, whereas you arent, because you have a strong sense of self. This is what she canT stand- that she cant control you- nothing to do with you as a person. In PAges case, her older brother was the "black sheep" and scapegoat, but Pages herself felt that she and her mother "shared a brain" and got along really well. This was until Pages started to show signs that she was her own person, and her mother couldnT handle it, and cut her out of her life. So the friendship she had with her mother was all based on an unspoken agreement that Pages went along with her mother and never criticised her. My MIL (Very toxic) "gets along" with my DH and SIL, and slags off her eldest son to anyone wholl listen. DH canT see through it, but I can. MIL is trying to play everyone against each other, so she can keep some kind of control, but it doesnt wash with me, and she has been banned from my flat at the moment. DH is scared of upsetting her, and feels very responsible for her and her (self-made) problems. This is not a proper loving relationship between them, its just based on guilt and obligation. Im sure DHs brother thinks that MIL "loves" DH and SIL the way you think your mother loves your siblings, but honestly, its really not love, its control.
THeres no way a woman who did what she did to you is capable of loving her other children. Loving and mothering are based on fairness and integrity and emotional support. THis is what love is and you can bet thats not what she gives your brother and sister. More likely she gripes at them (about you or anyone) and they have to listen to her and pat her on the back and feel obligated to take her side. Sue Foreward says that once a relationship is based on guilt, fear or obligation, it becomes hollow from the inside out. For some reason she has more of a control on them than she does on you. Pages didnT see the light for a while, but when she did her brother (who had always known) was ready to support her. If your brother and sister see the light, then you can be there for them, to help them through it. But if your mums hold over them is too strong, she may die before they get a chance to free themselves of her in the way you have. This would be a real tragedy for them, because I think facing the fact that our mums are loopy is one step towards healing.

Suburbia,

Have you looked at the British Association for Counselling and Pyschotherapy website - that is www.bacp.co.uk.

Re your second question my answer to that is I would not send a card.