My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hi Rhubarb and Pages (we have 'met' on another thread..)
I have a very similar maternal relationship to yours but no stepdad.

My dad was/is a classic 'enabler'. He has always looked after her and put her first. People say he 'worships her' but this is not the way it seems to me at all. It's as if he has cast himself so firmly in the role of martyr and follower that there is really no other life possible for him. He has a lot of classic depressive symptoms but has never been diagnosed or treated.

I used to feel much closer to him than to her because he wasn't the one being constantly aggressive,hysterical and vile. But now I look at them and at least she has spent 15 years in therapy trying to change. He has been in constant denial and I don't have much respect for him at all for that.

Isn't it strange how we were all so good/quiet when we were younger?
I actually speak to alot of my friends about my mum because they can validate how she was too.
When I speak about my mum to new friends, they ask & wonder why I never rebelled! I wonder too sometimes, apart from the fact that I was to dam scared.

Rhubarb, about my dad? Hmm...well thats another story, but it is on this thread on an earlier post I did.
Mon 11th Dec 06 10.50:58

My dad died when I was 15. Prior to that I didn't really have much of a relationship with him because my mother didn't want me to, and I was too busy trying to ingratiate myself with her and my stepdad. My dad was no saint but I regret now that I didn't try and get to know him before he died. My grieving was very much delayed because of all this.

Rhubarb, I am interested to know what the recent incident was that led to your mother shunning you and making out she was the victim? The similarities with my experiences are astonishing. My mother has never apologised or even explained her actions either, though I have tried to talk about it. Did you try to with your mother? My mother just said to my face it wasn't worth going over and then told everyone else that I had done a good job of splitting the family up and managed to get them on her side.

Sakura, who is the author of "Controlling People"?

Ohh, just thought, I hope it is a book about people who are controlling, rather than a "How to" book. Gettit?

I did a thread about it on Mumsnet at the time Pages. Briefly, we were in France she was due to visit with her dh, my brother and my 18yo niece and her friend.

Days earlier she was crying to me because my bro was ill and if he couldn't go then none of them would be going, despite the fact that my niece and her friend had paid for their flights. Anyway ...........

They arrive and straight away I notice that her dh is getting too touchy feely with my niece - he has his hand inside her blouse rubbing her back. He continues to behave this way, touching her friend's bum pretending to brush off a fly, tickling my niece whilst grabbing a feel of her inner thigh. I spoke to my niece about it and she admitted that it made her feel uncomfortable. I discussed it with my dh and my sister. I knew it would be difficult as he and I have never got on. So we agreed that I should tell my mum to have a quiet word with him.

I did and my mum went on the defensive saying "He's not a pervert!" etc. I told her that I was not saying that, but he should perhaps not be touching teenage girls in that way. She said she'd have a word and that was that.

They continued their holiday. I drove them everywhere. I took them sightseeing, I gave them meals etc etc.

Later I learn that at the airport she told my niece what I had said, and told my niece to tell her dad (my elder brother) before I told him. My niece did tell her dad and so her dad felt duty bound to visit mum and ask her what went on. When this happened, my mum phoned me in France and screamed down the phone at me "May God forgive you for what you have done!" Turns out she is blaming me for telling my brother - if you can get your head around that!

So basically she turned that incident around to make her the victim. She put my niece in a difficult position - this is her firstborn grandchild whom she has a duty to protect - she betrayed her own dh by letting everyone know what I had said, and she betrayed me and sullied my relationship with my brother who thought I was just out to stir things given my dislike for my stepdad. Now everyone in the family apart from my one sister thinks that I manufactured that whole incident to get one over my stepdad. My niece kept quiet about it all. No doubt she was too intimidated to speak out.

So now I am an outcast. I can't really forgive her for that although I know I should. She has never explained, although she knows that I now know the full story. She still makes out that I am the abusive one. Although she has screamed at me and slammed the phone down and I have never ever done that to her, but my family thinks that is the kind of person I am.

It's my birthday tomorrow. She has sent me a present and I know she'll phone. I haven't spoken to her since Christmas and I feel very angry since my 2nd brother (I have 3) told me that he was under the impression that I was abusive to my mum. I don't want to talk to her. I am trying to remain calm and unaffected, civil. But that is so so hard. She'll come on the phone in her pathetic voice, she'll tell me that she loves me and she'll basically try to make me feel guilty for the imaginery things that I have done.

I just want to shut my eyes, cover my ears and pretend that I am not here.

Oh during all of that going on she was going round pretending to heart broken and ill, I had destroyed her marriage, I had betrayed her. She told people that she "forgave" me.

She makes me sick and I'm furious just sitting here now thinking about it.

OMG Rhubarb, I'm sat here with my gob wide open! That is dreadfully shocking!
I would find it very very difficult to forgive that kind of behaviour I'm afraid.
I only have empathy for you.
I can only say (which won't make the situation any better) that you did the right thing. Creeps like that make my skin crawl & I can spot them a mile away.

Both me & my best friend were sexually abused as children (by the same man)! What I didn't know at the time, was that it was already happening to her, with her step father!!! She didn't tell anyone, not even me until we were 19. It certainly didn't surprise me really.as I always knew he was a Perv, he used to ping my bra strap & constantly comment on how I was developing.
She did eventually tell her mum, who didn't believe her!!!!! I can't imagine how that must have felt. Because my friend had always been off the rails, she was then classed as being a liar!

These kind of people are in denial & it really really gets my back up!
The 'toxic parents' book made me realise alot more about people like them.
Its just not normal for men to do that kind of thing. Can you imagine your DH doing that to his daughter's friends, say? NO I can't either. Dirty Bastard!!!!

Pages, so sorry to hear that about your dad. That is so sad really. Added grief to your feelings, it is such a shame. x

EEk Rhubarb that is so ghastly.

You did a very good thing there though as you may well have saved your niece a more embarrassing (or worse) encounter later on.

I am with you on the forgiveness thing. That is perhaps the most maddening thing a parent like that can do. It totally devalues you, cements their sense of their own righteousness, and usually involves others in condemning and then 'forgiving' you too. Urgh.

Oh my god, Rhubarb. Oh well, shes insane. Like PAges said earlier, some of our mothers are toxic and controlling, and then there are others here who are totally unhinged. I put my mum in the unhinged category. The more I read on here, the more horrible repressed memories keep coming back. Like the CLEANING! Why on gods earth couldnT our mothers even bother doing the cleaning, and why did they have to bully us into doing it? Ive never minded cleaning (Ive worked as a cleaner- I found it quite satisfying really), but my mum got it into her head that I was a spoilt brat and work shy, so I was given the cleaning to do. All the hoovering, washing up, the bathroom, the dusting, the lot as far as I can remember. I love cooking now too, but I was NEVER allowed to cook or shown how to cook. She should have made the cleaning fun, but it was used as a punishment for...oh I don`T know what. For being a girl? For being happy? Permanently enraged was another quote I think describes my mum quite well.

Anyhow PAges, the author of the controlling book is Patricia Evans. Nope she doesnt explain how to control people haha! But there are some interesting things in there. Ooooh let me quote a bit from it. My husbands away on business tonight, so its just me and the computer (and lovely sleeping angel in the next room) It should be okay because Ive cited the author. The bit Ive chosen might be interesting to some of you:

A woman Ill call Betty walked into a cafe where I was having coffee with a friend. She was accompanied by her daughter, whom Ill call Suzy, about seven years old. "What kind of ice cream do you want?" asked Betty, as they looked over the flavours laid out in tubs below the glass counter. "Mom, I want vanilla", said Suzy. "Have chocolate chip" said her mother. "No, Ill have vanilla".
"Youd like chocolate walnut better." "No, I want vanilla" "YOu dont want vanilla. I know you prefer some kind of chocolate," said her mother.
"I want vanilla"
"You dont want vanilla" "Yes I do" "Well, arent you a strange one," said her mother.

As the conversation progressed the mothers statements seemed more and more strange to me. They had an odd, backwards quality about them. Betty could only know her own likes and dislikes, not her daughters. Betty was acting as if she knew what Suzy wanted.
SInce Suzys peronal reality was negated, she was invited to ignore herself. She was actually told that what she knew from within- her preference- was wrong and that what she heard from without- her mothers conjecture- was right. She also heard that her authentic self (the one that wanted vanilla) was not acceptable to her mother.
While Betty appeared to have a good intention to buy her daughter some delicious ice cream, she was in fact assaulting her daughter`s psychic boundary.

Nevertheless, Suzy did not take in her mothers definition of her; she seemed able to withstand the small assaults. She wasnt persuaded that her mother knew her inner reality better than she knew it herself. But many young girls would succumb to the authority of a parent. It is likely that if Suzys mother believed that she could define her daughter in terms of her taste and choices, this was not her first attempt. Given her mothers persistence, it is impressive that Suzy maintained her sense of self and her clear vision of her personal preferences. It is highly probably that someone who was a strong influence in Suzys life validated and affirmed her inner reality.
Without consistent affirmation, it easy for a child to take in a parents definition of his or her inner reality.

Okay, Ill stop there, but its interesting, isnt it. I mentioned earlier that I thought the validating person was my Gran. I remember one day she told me a few years ago how caring I was as a child, and how I looked after my younger brothers. I was dumbfounded. Id never ever thought of myself as being a caring person. Id internalised my mums hatred of me (which was really her own self-hatred, probably), and I never imagined I had such a quality as being "caring". It upset me really, because I realised how damaged I had been by my mother. ITs almost as though she tried to squash all the good out of me. As though she was jealous of the good she could see in me. And of course, jealous that I was being caring towards my siblings in a way that she couldnt manage to. (even now they turn to me for help, because she is so wrapped up in herself)

By the way MusicLover, Im abroad, so if its late night for you, its morning for me, so I come on during my daughters nap usually.

Oh thanks Sakura, I am going to nip out and look for it now. Actually the bit you quoted sounds very like what my mother has told me about how her mother (my gran) was with her. Which probably explains a lot.

It doesn't excuse anything though.

My stepdad was like yours Rhubarb, though no actual sexual abuse occurred it wasn't for the want of him trying. He was always making inappropriate sexual jokes to me, commenting on my development and trying to get into my bedroom when I was changing. (That was when he wasn't hitting me or calling me a "useless cow"). I wish I had had a big sister around like you to protect me when I was younger. You have been so thoughtful and protective of your niece, and in a normal family everyone would be commending you for putting a stop it but we all know what toxic families are like. Denial is the name of the game.

My mum's reaction was like yours btw, Rhuby. At the time she just turned her back and agreed with my stepdad that he hadn't done anything wrong and I was a prude. When me and older brother (who I later found out he did it to as well) were discussing it in front of my mother a year or two ago (I was delighted to find it had happened to him too - sounds awful, but it meant it wasn't just me, so couldn't have been my fault) my mother yelled at us and shouted "That was my partner you're talking about!" and told us to shut up.

God this really is therapy! The more I tell you guys, the more I realise that this could not possibly be me "making too much of it", not by anyone's standards. As I think Sakura said, see how it sounds when you tell it to others...

Happy Birthday for tomorrow, Rhuby. Whatever your mother says or does, just think of us and what we would have to say about it!!!

PS Thanks Musiclover, about my dad. Yes, that's exactly it. Another separate story but still something to add to the pile.

Yea Happy Birthday Rhubarb

Just read your post musiclover! Haven't popped in for ages so hi to everyone and Rubarb, not had a chance to look and my baby is just waking up...so...

My mother was the other way round. She was obcessed with cleaning and ironing and polishing and cleaning and hoovering and washing and did I say cleaning? She went from 7 in morning to about 11 at night, non stop all day apart from mealtimes. I tried to help once when i was about 4, tried to polish a table top, naturally was smudging it, her response, was it to encourage or to praise? Nope 'look at it, give it to me (snatches cloth) i'll do it!!' I was heartbroken. So after that esp when teenager and adult whenever she complained, shouted about lack of help round house i told her to f off and repeated that incident (which wasn't the only one).

Ahh...happy days......

ALly, I can imagine that being very difficult to live with.
Only ever told my mum to F Off once, when I was 19, after I left home. She had asked me for my brothers address after he had moved to Ireland, he owed her money. I told her I didnt know (which I didnt) She started punching hell out of my head, so I lost it it & told her "F off, you Effin bitch. then I ran like hell, & she chased me down the street, got me again & carried on hitting me. I never did it again!

OMG Musiclover, you dared put a knife in the sink with butter on it? Again, not my mother but my stepdad, and like your mother he wasn't houseproud, just looked for ways to find fault in everything we did. Leaving crumbs on the table, not rinsing a plate off, turning a light on in one room before we had turned another one off, not shutting a door (oh, so many rules about doors...), forgetting your doorkey... all hanging offences, or at the very least a kick up the backside or a whack round the head.

LOL at you shouting F off and running like hell, Musiclover. I know it's not really funny but I'm smiling at your gumption. God, wish I'd had the guts like you to tell him to F off, just once. He'd have probably half killed me but at least I'd have said it. Maybe I'll write him a letter which just says "F off you tosser".

LOL pages

OOOh I was brave wasn't I? I think it was becasue I had left home really, it made me braver IYSWIM. But in all honesty..because she was flying off the handle because of my brother (yet again!) it just got my back up.
I can laugh about it now, it isn't funny no, but I am glad I can laugh.

What crimes we did eh? Like you said 'hanging offences' I had many slap round the head too.

Keep forgetting to tell you this one!
You'll love this....

After I left home, I moved in with my savior, my best mate who used to be my mums mate (mentioned on earlier post)
Funny enough it was only around the corner, so we used to sit in the garden, drinking & laughing etc just to wind my mum up. (I so needed to rebel)
We saw a book in a shop called 'how to be a complete bitch'! It was perfect! So we bought it & posted it to my mum!
How we laughed. So naughty I know, & not particularly mature, but I was only 19!

Mum did mention it when we got speaking again. She said "and I know it was you & that Effin bitch who sent that book" I just sat there red faced.

On the subject of panic attacks, just thought I'd share this...I just had a really good counselling session where we touched on the way some physical symptoms I have in the current day are residual "flight or fight" responses. AlthoughI don't have panic attacks as bad as Greenie describes, I do have sudden terrors and over the top reactions when ie. I pass an accident on the motorway, or DH isn't home when he said he would be (I always think he has had a car crash).

We discussed some of the scary things that happened when I was small, ie my mum leaving us for a couple of times with my alcoholic father for a few days, not knowing if she was ever coming back, getting put in a childrens home once for a couple of weeks, the police coming to take us to school, the fact that I was left home alone when small and how I would have been terrified by that, and how unpredictable life was, never knowing what would happen next, but also the unpredictability then of my stepfather and his suddenly going into a rage, which really reminded me of some of your mothers, but because it wasn't my mother who was the violent one it hadn't really hit me till today quite how much I would have been on my guard from that. You just never knew when he was going to go off on one. I think many of you know what I am talking about. To compound that I also had a form teacher at school for 5 years who went into mad fits of rage at the smallest thing, just like my stepfather.

So it occurred to me that if you spent much of your childhood being constantly on guard, Greenie, but now you haven't got your mother around like that but you have the constant fear of her turning up, doing something unpredictable, that is reason enough in itself why your body might suddenly have violent reactions for no apparent reason - just because it is so trained to do that? (Like your unconscious suddenly saying "my mother hasn't made me jump out of my skin for a while now, maybe it's time") This may have occurred to you or sorry if I'm way off track, just a thought. Not sure how you go about stopping it but I am working on that next week so will report back!!!

Musiclover, at the book. Doesnt sound like she needed it though.

Pages...never beaten (bad people beat children up, were allowed to bully tho ) but I am constantly fighting off 'bad thoughts'. Same as you, if hubby is late there's been an accident, if I see one start imagining being in one with dd, daren't go for walks in the local area in case we get attacked or murdered. It goes on and on, my mind constantly fountains out these horror scenarios and what would happen and how I would deal with it and its all just too horrid to think about. Even tho I know I will again today...probably half a dozen times...and I constantly suppress it. Think it is a leftover from my obcessive compulsive tendancies I had from 12 to 23. Just wish I could be normal and look forward to life and not constantly see in glorious technicolour, the worst happening. It also goes back to my dad living under a cloud, not just people in this life were out to get us, but them up there as well (points up to sky)...

Musiclover, like the book! So many things I still left unsaid even tho I could tell my mother to f off and regularly did. You know what, could do with tying them down and gagging them and then they HAVE to sit and LISTEN without arguing back to all the damage they have done. To make them sit and listen till they cry with what they have done and show real remorse. But that's another of my daydreams...and no, not that I would cause it would be wrong...but the frustration of never being HEARD gets to me so much at times.

xxxx

Sounds like it has all kicked on my side. My dh went to my sisters to collect my birthday gift. She told him that mum is calling together a family meeting, she has refused to go and has been yelled at my our elder brother for causing trouble.

I have not yet been asked. She rang this morning but her number came up (she's saved as WITCH) so I didn't answer.

Oh Rhubarb, are you okay? What has prompted her calling the meeting, do you know? Why is she doing this on your birthday?

Funny enough Pages, I found a book yesterday, that I borrowed from a girl at work. I was reading some of it when I was on a night shift. But I had forgotton I still had it.
Its called 'In Our own Hands' A book of Self-Help Therapy.
I read a bit from a chapter yesterday.
The chapter is called 'Roots in Childhood:Regression.
What does Regression mean?

Here is a small paragraph.........

WE often recognise past patterns & influences in pesent relationships. A woman storms out of a pub leaving behind a bemused friend. Later she realises she got so angry because her companions manner reminded her of her cold & authoritarian father. Another woman nags at her daughter about her untidiness, to no effect. She hates herself for nagging but can't stop doing it. She remembers that this was how she was treated by her own mother. We don't want to go on treating men as if they were our fathers: nor do we want to repeat our mothers' mistakes. We can escape our childhood, rather than return to it, through 'regression' in therapy.

Regression in therapy is aimed at enabling us to experience fully the feelings we blocked off as infants or children because we feared their effect, but this time the outcome is different and enables us to change as adults.

The chapter also talks about PSYCHOANALTIC THERAPY and PRIMAL THERAPY.

As soon as I have read the 'toxic parents' book I may have a read on this too. Well, this chapter anyway.
It is actually a very old book, published in 1981.
I also have another book (borrowed) called 'A WOMAN IN YOUR OWN RIGHT'- Assertiveness and You.
I was drawn to them because I have always longed to be assertive, but never got round to reading any of them.

Rhubarb, sorry to hear about that, on your birthday of all days. Do you think it was done purposely?
How bizzare you name her 'witch'! My mum calls herself & us witches. She is BIG witch, I am middle witch, my sis is little witch, & my DD is DOlly witch.

Ally, I fully understand the frustration dear.

It's interesting about all the witches!
I used to think of my mother as 'the old witch'- and still feel a bit like one myself sometimes...
lol Rhubarb at your phone name for your mum.

It just strikes me that there's a really rich seam of female misery (and of course male violence/denial) underlying our mother's lives. All the obsessive housework, the barmy controlling rules, the deliberate cruelty.

I'm not for a minute saying that our mothers were not responsible personally for what they did, they were and are. However it is sobering for me to read this thread and realise that my mother is not a lone madwoman but that this is a more common type of dysfunctional mother behaviour. It makes me wonder why and how this stuff is passed down.
Some of you report that your mothers also said they were abused. That is my mum's big thing too, that she was abused and neglected by both her parents (and that for that reason, I have to shut up because nothing she did could ever be as bad as what happened to her.)