My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hope you find a few laughs in there too, Spider!

WOW, I'm so glad I got this thread bumped again. I really didn't want it to die,as it has been so benefcial to me & lots of you too.

Pages, glad your feeling positive & free, its a great feeling isn't it? I too watch the soaps & think the way you do about how people react. I'm really unsure if it does go on in RL or is soapland. It certainly never happened in my childhood!

Greenie, I was wondering how your panic attacks & nightmares were going on ,sorry to hear they are still happening! You poor love. I too have suffered with panic attacks when I had severe PND, very scary experience, I sympathise with you greatly.

Rhubarb, well...your mum sounds awful, was so about the 'mum of the year' award. How the heck did she get that? My mum also suffered with severe depression, which I now know how greatly it affected my childhood. I'm just so glad that I now realise how damaging it can be to children, & thats why I'm determined to try & not get that way again myself. Easier said than done I know, but I am really really determined, but then I have got a very supportive husband, which helps lot. I'm not saying that all people who are depressed end up affecting their children, but i could see the pattern going that way in my life. I was turning into my mother, which scared the hell out of me.
This thread has helped me so much & made me wake up to alot of how/why I was the way I was. I'm so grateful.

Spidermama, yes I've needed plenty of tissues at times too whilst reading on here. It helps to know that you are not alone doesn't it?

Chins up ladies, we are all here for each other, even just to rant on & get it off our chests.

I am really not dwelling on the past at the moment, but am sort of still hurting-not for me, but for my 12 year old sister! My mum is a single parent (yet again) & I'm looking from the outside of what my sister is now going through with my mum. Its like history repeating itself. The only good thing is...my sister has a mind of her own & doesn't let mum bully her in the way she did with me. I was just so weak as a child & really feared my mum.
Will explain another time as it's gettin really late now. But I am worrying about it.

Yes thanks for bumping this thread.
Greensleeves, All I can say is just keep going and take one day at a time. We just have to keep reminding ourselves that we are grown and confident women now, and not in our mums grasp anymore, and that we are <span class="italic">equal</span> to her and can look at her objectively from one adult to another. And realise that most adults in this life would <span class="italic">never</span> let another adult treat them in this way let alone the one who is supposed to care for them. I had lots of nightmares, Greensleeves, especially as a child, more than the average, I think. I had an awful lot around the time of my wedding when I was breaking away from my mum. They say its just your brain putting all your thoughts in order, and helping you to heal`.

Am absolutely shocked at the Best Mother award thing, RHubarb. That goes near the top as one of the worst things I`Ve heard on this thread. The only judge of a good mother are the children themselves, and only they can nominate her. And not even good mother, but best mother. And I bet she really believes this as well, because now she has the proof in writing.

Musiclover, its interesting that your sister isnt affected the way you were. Its probably the fact she has you as a witness to validate` her that is making her know her own mind.

I also wonder how many of us here are first children. I am, and they say that the first child is usually the one who aims to please the parents at any cost(even at the cost of their health, I assume)
I once watched a documentary showing childrens reactions to parents behaviour. In the first experiment, the mother was told to pay extra attention to the youngest child. When she did so, the elder did everything to try to please mum to get her attention. By showing her some drawing hed done, or being very affectionate, for example. When mum was asked to pay more attention to her firstborn child, the reaction of the younger one was quite different. The second child started behaving really badly as a reaction. Tearing around or doing naughty stuff as a way of getting mums attention back.
They say that first children are more likely to be found in responsible jobs such as police officers, solicitors, etc, and are more likely to follow the path their parents choose i.e join the family business or complete a degree. WHereas subsequent children are more likely to question the status quo and become artists, political activists and the like. I donT know to what extent its true or not, but I do think that as a first child, there is an aspect of my personality that is scared to death of displeasing my mum, even now, even when I can see that she only has a destructive influence on me.

Sakura, I didn't expect any posts after mine, are you a night hawk like me?

My sister is only 12 Sakura, so I'd say the damage may not show in her yet. But it is good that she is a stronger person with a mind of her own. My mum has mellowed slightly as she got older, but the same underlying beliefs are still there, that still show & still make me feel frightened when I hear them.

I am the 2nd Child Sakura, but, probably acted more like the older one. There is 17 months between me & my brother. He went off the rails at around 10/11 when my mums 2nd marraige broke up, & also finding out that we had different fathers! Because my brother went off the rails it was always said how he was affected, but never affected me, as I was the quiet one that kept all the hurt inside. My brother turned out to be even worse as he got older, he is a real embarassment. He has got such a chip on his shoulder & a real attitude about everything. He is also a con man, who has conned money out of everyone, including £2000 out of my nana!!!! I hate him for that.
He talks to my little sister like dirt, & that really hurts me too. I have now washed my hands of him, which helps me because I used to get dragged into all his lies & cons, because mum expected me to fall out with him & forgive him when it suited her!

My mum & him have jsut fallen out recently again, & i'm so glad I no longer am involved, but he still has to say to mum that she never ever 'has a go' at me. My mum has nothing to have a go at me for, I don't cause her any worry/stress in her life what so ever. But he see's it as I'm her favourite!!! Or my sister is!!
My bro got away with alot when younger, as he had epilepsy (which I wouldn't wish on my worsed enemy) but he really abused it. He claimed everything out of the government & constatntly drank so much that he would have seizures everyday!
He has now grown out of them, thankfully!

My bro has no idea what I went through growing up in my teens as he was never there, he was allowed a life & go out when he wanted-I wasn't. Then there was a few years when he was in care/foster homes too.
I copped for everything my mum was feeling, with her depression. I tried so hard to make her happy, but nothing ever did!

Although her depression is no where near as bad now, she still has the same attitude towards my sis & it breaks my heart.
She too, is not allowed a life, she has to stay in & clean the house, & if she doesn't do it to mums standards, she hits the roof-big time. Mum tells my sis that she is a lazy bitch just like 'her brother'!!!!
Mum told me the other week, that I(me) jsut got on with it, & did it', my sis is idle like my bro. I told mum not to say things like that to her, as it would damage her, but she is in denial.

Sunday night-my mum rang me & explained she had used my sister's mobile phone to call me, but got the wrong mumber! When I told her my proper number, she really really yelled out to my sister-"YOU'RE SO FCKING THICK, YOU ARE", YOU GET EVERYTHING FCKING WRONG"
I said 'for goodness sake mum it was an easy mistake to make, she got the last 2 digits wrong thats all'! She replied, "she does it all the fcking time" She gets on my fcking nerves.
I just wanted to go round & give my sis a big hug. I heard my sis cry & say 'it wasn't my fault' then said to mum "LEAVE ME ALONE".
Its prayed on my mind since, & I'm glad my sister came after school yesterday & stayed for tea. I'm the one who has to now reassure her that she is not thick & that I love her.

Im nearly crying here, just writing about it
Sorry to rant on.
But I am not getting down about it, I have to be strong for her.
Thanks for listening xx

Musiclover, about your poor sister. That is how my stepdad used to speak to me.
At least she has you. What a lovely sis!

Sakura, that makes so much sense. I wasn't the oldest child but I was the oldest daughter and it is me and older brother (very close in age) who have always been the more serious, responsible ones as you describe and we are also the most sensitive. My younger brothers and sister are definitely more carefree and thick-skinned as you describe. All of our jobs reflect that.

Older brother and I got the worst of it growing up as well. He reacted by accepting he was an outsider in the family and I reacted by doing anything I could to make sure I wasn't. I definitely think as females we are more susceptible to being commpliant and caretaking of our mothers and putting their needs before our own.

Wow MusicLover, your mother sounds really intimidating. Your brother sounds like a very difficult character too. Do you think perhaps boys are more likely to have this very open exhibitionist reaction to childhood trauma? You must feel awful for your sister, if she's only 12 she has a long stretch to get through before she can leave home Being constantly told you are stupid/incompetent/useless when you are trying flat out to please is horrendous. At least she has you though - and when she does finally get out of there she will have you to support her and help her work through it all.

I was the one who didn't go off the rails/exhibit any obvious damage too, so my brother and sister were regarded as the damaged and traumatized ones, while I was "too young for it to have made any difference". As a result of this labelling and the constant desperation to please someone who just wasn't programmed ever to be satisfied, I ended up in a terrible state (illness, depression, a breakdown, lingering health problems) which I'm still recovering from.

Yea Greenie she is very intimidating & controlling too. It's just as hard to watch as an outsider as it was to go through it myself.
Part of me though, although I really dislike my brother, I can't help but think that his childhood has made him the way he is.
But another part of me feels that my mums childhood has made her the same. She too had a very difficult time. Although she is not aware of how she is. I realised I was going down the same road & dragging the legacy on.
It wasn't until I found this sight that I realised that my depression was a cause of my upbringing. The same as all of us on here.

My brother has also suffered with depression!
But like Pages said earlier, us females are more compliant & caretaking. My brother is very very selfish & his needs come before anyone's. Even before his own SON!
I feel I am now a stronger person than I have ever been, & have learnt alot about myself recently. My mum/brother will never learn about themselves.

You can see a picture of my little sister on my profile, she is a little Gem. I'm sure she will come & live with me when she is around 16 as I know that it will get far worse then,as it did for me.

Funny that, I too have a stepdad who used to talk to me like dirt, make me feel as though I was nothing. At times I was invisible, others I was a nuisance, a blight on his life.

He still would treat me like that given half a chance. What makes me sick though is that he is all over my children when he sees them - just like he was as nice as pie to us when he first met us, until he got us where he wanted us. He is also all over my elder nieces - teenagers. His hands touching them. Makes me sick.

There is a pattern with all our parents developing here.

My sister has just come round to see if she can take my DD to her house. (she loves her to bits) We have just had a heart to heart & she has cried her eyes out on my shoulder!

I feel so sorry for her, but she is grateful of me being here for her & knows she can come here anytime.
She has told me a few things that mum says to her! Like...how I have let my DS get away with alot for years & needing a good slap...blah blah..! I'm fuming inside, but not going to rise to it. My sister has just told me that she thinks I am a far better mum than our mum is! Bless-what a shame!

Do you think the damage will still happen, even though she has me to turn to?
I'm so worried about that. She is really grown up for her age & I explained to her that I din't want her to feel how I did.
She already believes that she is 'thick'!!!
I've told her to try, if she can, to ignore it & not believe it.
My sister sometimes can be very smothering & crave attention from mum (even negative)so I've jsut explained to her to step back & try not to do it, & she said "well she doesn't show me any love otherwise"!
How awful.

Rhubarb, you step father sounds really creepy, yuk, I feel discusted at the thought!
Yes there definately a pattern with our parents here.

Rhuby, have we got the same stepfather? God, he could be a nasty bastard at times. And a smarmy oily bastard when it suited him too. The more I think about it the more I think he had something missing in his personality - nothing was real about him, he was just a series of learned personae ('scuse wanker's Latin ). I think if anything happened to my mother and he had to live on his own again, he would forget about all of us overnight and just slip into a new life with someone totally different. He's like a hologram. The perfect life partner for someone like my mother.

ML, what you're doing for your sister might not feel like enough to you, but believe me it will be a lifeline to her to be able to let it all out with someone she can trust.

ML, I have a sister like you. She left home and I was still living there. She was my saviour! She was the only one who asked about me, she would turn up at 10pm after hearing about one of my mother's "turns" to take me to the pub, her house was always open to me. I owe her a lot, I really do. One day your sister will say the same.

Keep being there for her, you are doing more good than you realise.

Greeny - perhaps they are? Cue Twilight Zone music!

Thanks Greenie, Rhuby, thats reassuring to know.
Just glad we had our little heart to heart earlier. She loves our hugs n loves.

My best friend was my saviour. She originally was my mums friend, but when she learned how my mum was, we became closer. Mum fell out with her & has never spoken to her since, not even at my wedding! That was nearly 15 yrs ago now! Gosh how time flies. Cant believe its taken me this long to understand all this.

Do you still doubt yourselves though?

I often think that maybe I'm making too much of things, perhaps I'm forgetting about the positives that she had? When I write it down and people seem shocked at how she is then I think that yes, perhaps it is shocking, but then my brothers seem to think that I am to blame and she has so many people on her side, her sister, her best friend. Although I'm sure they don't know the whole picture, they don't ask any questions.

I try to do what is right and I constantly question myself. But it is still something that will keep me awake at night if I allow it. Am I making too much of this? Should I just accept her for who she is?

I did always think I was making to much of it, its only now I realise that I havn't.
I do have to reasure myself about alot of things though, as I'm quite a sensitive person & feel hurt easily.

Accepting our parents is one thing, as you can never change them, & if you want to be in contact with them, you have to accept thats the way they are. At the moment though, my mum is not interfering, controling or causing me heartache in my life. (apart from what she is doing to my sis). It's the past that I'm learning how to deal with. I was constantly questioning myself why at one time. I now realise why, & thats made such a difference to me.
ALthough deep down I feel this hate for my mother, I still do love her very much, I can't help that, & I know she loves me-she just has a very funny way of showing it!

It's only when we fall out that all the hate floods back & takes over my life.
So I don't even want to get into any confrontation with her. My mum has no idea I feel all this inside & I could never tell her-I'm yellow, plus I don't want to hurt her. It would have to be on paper-infact it would be a noval! lol.
She wouldn't thank me for saying anything about my sis either, that would end in us falling out & she would stop my sis from seeing me-she has done that before!
So I keep my gob shut, or tell her in a way that is not offensive.
At the moment I have no intention of letting my mother know how she has hurt me & still carrying it on now with my sis, as I know she would deny it all & defend herself & blame me for her being that way, & I'm afraid I'm not quite strong enough to cope with that being thrown at me.

So that is probably where the underlying doubt comes from, If I am actually helping my sister or sitting back & letting it happen.

Rhubarb, your mum may have alot of people on her side, but you are an adult now, & you know what is wrong & right, so even if it is only you that thinks it is shocking-you are right, it was you that went through it & you that felt it, so F*ck what she thinks, or your brothers. It should be her lying awake at night with a guilty conscience.
The negatives always seem to outway the bad anyway, because they usually do.

Rhubarb,
WHen thinking about whether you are making too much of it, look at it objectively. If you told some people you know about the things that have happened/are happening, would they accept it as normal behaviour? EVen writing it on here, with people who have really messed up mums, your story is near the top as far as bad experiences go. ITs strange that we all feel a kind of shame in admitting our mums are like they are. As if we have to hide it from people. Because we know if anyone knew the truth, theyD wonder why on earth we were still in contact. And if people knew about how our mums are, wed feel so sorry for them that they act the way they do, and that other people now know too. So we cover for them, and keep letting them behave this way, and tell ourselves that its not that bad after all.
But its true that they are to be pitied, not hated. I think Im definitely at the point now where I really pity her, and dont hate her at all. Im just keeping her out of my life untill she "gets better", which may be never, of course. MusicLover, I think it makes a huge difference to your sister that she has you in your life. I read a book called COntrolling People, and it says that if someone has even ONE person in their life who can validate their feelings and points of view, then that is usually enough to save them. I never had a sister like you, but come to think about it, my Gran (on my dads side) has always loved me a lot and has always listened to my opinions on things, and validated them. I must have spent a bit of time with her as a child, because my mum worked full time (thank God), and I think it has been through her positive influence that Ive been able to work things out for myself. Your sister will still have to do the work on herself, you canT do it for her, but just by listening to her, means it definitely wont be as hard for her as it was for you. One of my younger brothers has told me at Xmas that he has a kind of personality disorder (I wonT say what for confidentiality). HEs really suffering from it and has found himself group therapy through the NHS. He hasnT told my mum, and he thinks its normal to not tell your mum if you have a big problem like this. He thinks Mums have too many of their own problems to be bothering with an insignificant problem like his!!!! I cant tell him that as a mum, its kind of her job to help him with this, or at least to listen to him. My bros canT make the connection between their problems and her behaviour. I just feel so glad that he can talk to me about it, so he doesn`T feel totally alone.

It is hard isn't it to see what has always just been the reality of your family as an outsider would see it? Especially when your mother has always minimised the negative stuff, told history from her perspective and (for me) is now denying my reality and calling me a liar. She has also, Rhubarb, taken most of my family with her but fortunately I have my older brother to validate my feelings and truths.

Because I don't know what is normal though I still doubt myself as you do, which is what prompted me to start my first thread on this subject. My younger sister told me after I confronted my mum that I had twisted things and that she has friends who have had it far worse than I did so I should therefore "get over it".

Hitler had a whole nation on his side. Socrates had a whole nation against him. Your mother may have the support of those who are too scared or too much in denial to stand up to her but it doesn't mean you are wrong about this.

Message withdrawn

Here is just one typical toxic (note that word) parental reaction to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

Thanks guys, as I said I do have a sister who backs me up and validates things.

ML I used to be the one who kept my gob shut. I knew how she was treating other members of my family, refusing to help them when they needed her most, turning against them when they did something wrong and basically not being there for them at all, whilst pretending to the rest of the world that she was.

Yet I could step out of all of that, I could still maintain a relationship with her, I felt that she still listened to me although I was careful in what I said. I was able to forget the past and I accepted that she was just like that and we should make the most of the few positives that she had.

But then it was my turn and she betrayed me, let me down, turned my siblings against me. She did all of that just for the chance to get a bit of attention for herself, a bit of sympathy. To make her the victim yet again. I was shocked, stunned in fact. Now the past has come flooding back and I find that I cannot forget. She has never apologised or explained her actions and the hurt is too deep to let her back into my life now. She still makes out that I am the abusive one and she is the victim and no doubt plenty believe her. That hurts too.

But I know what really happened and I know what is happening now. My conscience is clear. I have done everything right.

I would never close the door completely, I do believe in giving people another chance. If she really wanted to see me or the children she could do. If she phoned I'd be nice and civil to her. But she chooses not to. I'm happy with that.

I'm so sad at the loss of my brothers, and at the loss of my mother too. But I cannot allow her to do that to me again. I now see with clearer eyes what lies she is spreading and how controlling she is. I know she'd betray me again at the drop of a hat. I can ignore her husband, he's nothing to do with me, but she's blood, she carried me in her womb ffs and that is what makes it so hard to understand. I'd do anything for my children, anything at all!

Oh well, there's my therapy!

Rhubarb, what you have said sounds so similar to my experience. I too do not have any feelings at all about my stepdad. He wasn't related to me and didn't love me or profess to. He was the abusive one but it was out there and obvious and he didn't pretend to like me so thehre was no betrayal. My mother, IMO, is the one who should have protected me. Like yours, she turned her back on me when I needed her the most, ignored what he was doing and worse, made it out to be my fault, whilst both she and stepdad pretended to the world that we were a model family.

They split up long ago and my mother, for reasons I won't go into, "changed" and has spent the last 20 years in many ways trying to make it up to me. That's the bit that I find hard because she has been genuinely caring and loving in a way that she wasn't able to be when we were children. But then something happened last summer (the subject of my first thread) which was effectively a betrayal of me by her, and as for you, it dragged up everything from the past that I (and my mother) thought I had got over or forgotten.

It also made me realise exactly how much of the past 20 years, when she was being nice to me, it was precisely because I was so grateful for her love it didn't cross my mind to ever disagree with her or question anything she did or said. DH used to notice how she badmouthed us all behind our backs, scapeogating my older brother, backstabbed and manipulated us all and how no-one was ever able to disagree with her, how sanctimonious and self-righteous she was, and when he pointed it out to me I would get really angry and defensive of her. My older brother had also been trying to get me to validate his feelings for ages and I (like my sister) had been telling him to "get over it". It wasn't until last summer that it was my turn to be the family scapegoat when I realised that deep down nothing had changed.

I too feel the door is open from my side, I would be happy to see my mother again and work this through but only if there were honesty and I can't see her ever admitting her mistakes in order to try and put things right between us. She would rather keep up her elaborate defense system and be right (she never says sorry anyway) and lose two of her children.

That's why I am always amazed when I see parents on tv who listen to their children's criticism of them and apologise. It seems so unreal to me!

PS DH sees it as when it is a simple choice of loving me with nothing or no-one else involved she is able to do it but when anyone else's emotions or feelings are involved (including hers) she will put them above mine. He says that I come at the bottom of the pecking order in the family, so am the perfect scapegoat. My older brother I think is even above me (DH says men always take first place above women for her) but because he has (like some of your brothers) always rebelled and I have been compliant (until now) I have had pride of place at second from the bottom!!!!

She did actually admit to me once that I probably got less attention than my siblings when I was young because I was always so good and quiet and well-behaved.

Sorry for going over old ground, I did post about the incident last summer on this thread, got confused.

It's good to get it off your chest pages! I think I've mentioned my mother more times than I care to think about on Mumsnet. Funny because I don't talk about her to anyone else, I just never mention my mum and if people ask I just tell them the basics.

Feels strange to be baring your soul in front of so many strangers!

Strange how so many of our mothers are so alike. Wanting attention for themselves, putting themselves before their children, being emotionally manipulative, etc. Also strange how so many of us have stepdads.

Can I ask how you all get on with your dads?