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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Possible sale of our home bringing up unresolved financial/relationship issues - long

83 replies

feelinganxious192 · 22/06/2015 07:12

Hi

H and I have been together for 19 years - married 13 of those. We have 3 dc - 2 at primary school, 1 at secondary.

I have posted about our relationship over the years, but in a way my question is not about the past but about what to do now.

The house we live in is in h's name only. When we got together I was much younger (obviously!) - but h is 12 years older than me. Looking back I would not have agreed to go ahead with things set up as they are (even if it meant the relationship ending), but I was naive! I moved in to h's flat. He then bought a house that we moved in to together. The house we currently live in was bought 2 years after we met so we have lived here for 17 years. At the time of the first house purchase, I asked him if he would wait (we were not married at that point and didn't have the dc) until I was in a position to get a joint mortgage with him. He said absolutely not and went ahead with the purchase.

So for 17 years we have lived in the second house he bought (after meeting me). In the time we have been together he has also bought and sold various other properties. He currently owns our family home as well as a retail property, a house in another town which he rents out intermittently, a property on the coast (actually a type of tower) which he would like to do up one day so that it can be rented out, and half a house (owned with a family member) which he is currently renovating to sell. I own half of the flat my sister lives in (this is part inheritance, part gift from my Dad).

The way that things are set up financially is that h pays me a wage through his business and I get child benefit and child tax credit into my account. I have recently started working again (after being a SAHM for a long time) so that goes in to my account as well (and will probably reduce the tax credits though I haven't sorted that out yet as have only just started working - it is contract work as a teaching assistant and there won't be any work in the holidays and am not sure where I will be working in September). I pay for food and anything child related - clothes / shoes / school trips / christmas and birthday gifts / any activities etc.. I also get occasional gifts from my Dad. This money allows me to pay for some activities for the kids and cheap holidays (this year I have paid for a 7 days in a holiday park in Wales and our overnight train tickets abroad this summer - we are going to stay with my Dad).

H pays for the mortgage and covers all bills (I used to pay for things like the MOT and car service but had more savings at that point). He is going for broke trying to do this latest property up and in a sense has less access to cash than me (but is obviously well off asset wise). There is still a mortgage but I don't know how big this is.

What bothers me is the fact that I am living like a child. H is a bit of a gambler in a way and juggles his financial commitments. He is living on the overdraft - he does renovation work for other people but is doing that less at the moment as he is concentrating on finishing the property he owns with a relative. I don't have access to any of his accounts and don't know what he does financially at all (apart from what he occasionally might tell me). He is now 58 (I am 46) and has had enough of working as physically hard as he has over the past 10 years. So I think the sale of this property and possibly of the house that we live in, would allow him to pay the mortgage off.

So about a month ago he got an estate agent over to value our house. He now talks about what he hopes it will sell for and we are doing up (or rather fixing as parts of it are a in need of tlc) some rooms. The agent asked us where we were planning to move to and of course we couldn't really say anything as we have different ideas about that. Our whole relationship h has talked about wanting to live in a particular mediterranean country and he is now saying that he wants to live there and he will go there on his own if necessary (Shock). However he is prone to making statements like that and also says "shall we move there?" when any interesting country appears on the TV. I would favour moving closer to the outside of the town we already live in as I am scared of losing the cosmopolitan element of our life. DC1 also really likes his secondary school and so I suppose that I vaguely think we could move somewhere greener and cheaper from where he (and the others when they start there) could commute to school. H and I have not really talked about this - but I suppose we are not the only couple who disagrees about where to go and live.

But the crux of the matter (as far as this post is concerned) is that the possible sale of our home opens a whole can of worms for me that I don't really want opened. Over the years I have asked h if I can be on the deeds a few times. He is very defensive about this. We also have no will and no life insurance. I know that if we were to get divorced 50% of any assets would be mine (though I am not sure if h realises this as in a counselling session 2 years ago he said that he bought the house before we got married - ie. it does not count as mine Hmm), but if h were to die or become incapacitated, it becomes more complicated than that. Also he could have made a will to anybody he pleases. I suppose I feel a degree of insecurity which could easily be got rid of if things were set up differently between us and if h were a different, more trusting kind of person.

I also feel slightly humiliated that in the end, despite having been together for so long and having 3 children, the big financial decisions are up to him as of course he owns everything.

So I don't think I could now move into a house which again only he signs for. In fantasy moments I think that he might, when it comes to it, ask me to be on the deeds of wherever we move to, but in all honesty, I don't think this will happen. In the past he has said things like if I want a house I have to work for it (just like he did when he started out - he is very big on this and how much effort he put into it). He has also said (in an argument) that I will not have more decision making power - or words to that effect - when I was saying that I wanted to be on an equal footing.

What I find upsetting is that, although I have undoubtedly not sweated as much as him (and have not been great at housekeeping either), I have contributed over the years. In the six years before we got married, my earnings went towards food. I then looked after the kids for a long time. I got a small inheritance when my Mum died and some of this went towards furniture, appliances and holidays.

So I am waiting to see what he actually plans to do deeds wise when and if we move somewhere else. But if it transpires (as I think it will) that he plans to keep things on the same footing, I will be pushed into taking my head out of the sand and doing something about it.

I am also worried about the future finance wise. I am planning on doing various things to get my working life back on track so it is not that I don't want to work - I absolutely do. But what is going to happen when h and I have both retired (not that I plan to for a good long time)? Is he going to have access to all the assets and money they may or may not generate while I ask him for money?

Basically, in an ideal world, I would want our entire financial set up re-drawn. With both of us owning more or less everything, and everything being out in the open. Pigs will fly before this happens with h however. Apart from anything else he is bitter about losing his family home to his first wife in their divorce and is very defended against this kind of thing happening again.

So I suppose I am asking how I can bring this issue up again with h and have an adult conversation with him about it. How can I get my point across without him misinterpreting my motivations?

Thanks for reading this far Smile.

OP posts:
Offred · 22/06/2015 22:22

I'm struggling with reconciling that assertion about preferring to have it with him than without with how you've described your life with him.

I agree that you do not have an issue based on him not understanding, you have an issue based on him not agreeing, having a low opinion of women and not having enough respect for you to even explain.

Also, you want your DC to learn to be little patriarchal dictators/downtrodden wives too?

feelinganxious192 · 22/06/2015 22:36

Possibly seeing a lot less of my kids if they decide to spend more time with him than with me is frightening. In fact there is almost nothing about divorce that isn't frightening.

It's difficult to explain but h is actually a really responsible provider and has worked really hard to keep a roof over our heads as it were. He just does not see why he should change the paperwork by adding my name to the deeds...

He would see me asking for my name to be added to the deeds as an assertion that I was about to bugger off with half his property. It's difficult to change people's deeply ingrained beliefs paranoias.

OP posts:
PoppyField · 22/06/2015 23:01

He would see me asking for my name to be added to the deeds as an assertion that I was about to bugger off with half his property. It's difficult to change people's deeply ingrained beliefs paranoias.

You won't change his deeply ingrained beliefs/paranoias! But neither will you leave him. Aw, high fives for being a responsible provider - now everyone can understand how lucky you are to have him.

Please recognise that he already sees you as a complete doormat - somebody to be ignored, wipe your feet on and push around. What's worse than that? I think you bloody well should bugger off with half 'his' property. Still, I suppose even MN can't kill the dream that he will magically turn into a decent human being one day.

Offred · 23/06/2015 00:05

He has worked really hard to get a property that he feels is 100% his, not to keep a roof over your heads... I mean surely he is aware the reason SAHMs, and in the past, housewives with no DC got a share in the house is because they were giving up their chance to provide for themselves and supporting their hs to provide for everyone and that is basically the nuts and bolts of agreeing to marry and having a dependant partner - you are making a legally binding contract to provide for them if they support your career at the expense of their own... What does he think marriage actually IS?!

Offred · 23/06/2015 00:08

You know in this circumstance I'd be sorely tempted to do exactly what pp suggested and calculate all the money he has saved on childcare and housekeeping etc over the years and present him with a bill. I mean it's only fair if he wants to keep things separate...

Offred · 23/06/2015 00:09

Do you even want to sell the house? Do the kids?

Melonfool · 23/06/2015 00:33

He's not providing for you - he's providing for himself, you are buying all the consumable (disappearing) day to day stuff, he's just allowing you live in his house pension fund.

You have no idea what assets or debts he has. He would quickly hide it all in a divorce, he already hid a whole retail investment from you for nearly a year.

His paying you a wage is almost definitely just a tax dodge by the way, one in which you are complicit. What work do you do for this salary? How do you fit this work in with your new job?

Personally I would find this situation intolerable and it could never have got this far in my world I'm afraid.

feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 05:41

What does he think marriage actually IS?!

I am sure that he knows I am entitled to stuff if we separate - and this is one of the reasons (I think) he hid the retail property - because it looked as if we were heading for separation.

Do you even want to sell the house? Do the kids?

One dc does, the other two don't. For a long time I have said I would like to move so yes in a way I want to. A bit scared about leaving what we know now however. Course the house might not sell. Also have no idea where we are going to agree to go. I agree that it's a good time to sell it and good to get rid of debts / mortgage if possible. Am also wanting the situation to unlock the deadlock between h and I as I am not going to move into a house where my name is not on the deeds. Things will definitely come to a head.

he's just allowing you live in his house pension fund.

Sadly I fear that this is true Sad.

His paying you a wage is almost definitely just a tax dodge by the way, one in which you are complicit.

There wouldn't have been much question of my asking for a different set up. A lot about h is about cost analysis (having had a whole section of his childhood during which his family were poor and then leaving home and running businesses for years).

Personally I would find this situation intolerable I do too Sad. Then I talk myself out of it because many people are a lot worse off but actually, fuck it, I really don't like my set up. It is permanently at the back of my mind.

it could never have got this far in my world I'm afraid. I feel deeply enmeshed now what with the dc etc...

Thanks for all your messages, they are making me think.

OP posts:
MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 05:52

The way that things are set up financially is that h pays me a wage through his business and I get child benefit and child tax credit into my account.

As a couple you claim CTC? With all those assets?!

And you ARE complicit in the tax dodge too.

These kind of things give so many people a bad name.

Either you are not allowed autonomy to refuse these things within your marriage - in which case you just need to get out. OR this all suits you just fine (apart from a niggling concern that you're not going to get your share of the assets).

Which is it?

feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:04

As a couple you claim CTC? With all those assets?!

Sorry but am feeling attacked - again. Our incomes are declared and the income from the one asset which generates an income (the retail property is empty / the tower is unlivable and empty and the half a house is being renovated) is also declared. Most of the assets are sitting there doing nothing.

this all suits you just fine what does the all refer to?

apart from a niggling concern that you're not going to get your share of the assets
that makes me sound like a gold digger Sad.

OP posts:
MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:11

Emoting isn't really addressing my point. My point is about the morality of what you are jointly engaged in.

To qualify for ANY amount of TCs, your joint income must be below £42kpa (3 children, no disabilities?). Presumably it is a reasonable margin below that because if you were receiving a truly paltry annual award you wouldn't be likely mention it.

Any business person keeping joint annual income that low despite those assets (with decent equity in some of them considering the length of time he's been an investment owner) is either completely hopeless or playing the system. The morality of that is shocking.

You are joining him in this.

If you're not happy with that; ACT.

Seize your own power and equality. As you've quite clearly identified, he isn't going to hand it to you.

feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:12

the niggling makes me sound small minded and mean

OP posts:
MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:12

Tax Credit ready reckoner from "Which?"

Possible sale of our home bringing up unresolved financial/relationship issues - long
MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:15

No - I meant 'niggling' as in 'persistent nagging doubt', which I took from this remark of yours;

Then I talk myself out of it because many people are a lot worse off but actually, fuck it, I really don't like my set up. It is permanently at the back of my mind.

TBH I think it warrants more than a niggling feeling of unease. You are complicit (by choice, coercion, apathy, or some combination) in something quite unsavoury.

feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:19

An asset does not always generate an income. When they have, he has declared it.

I don't know how much equity there is but even if there were a lot they could still not generate income. We are not talking valuable mansions - at all. The opposite almost. The only possibly valuable thing is the house we live in because of where it is.

OP posts:
MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:20

Look. What I'm saying is he's as dodgy as hell and you're implicated.

The tax credit award (i'm honestly shocked), the paying you a 'wage' nonsense (a bit less shocking - lots of people indulge in THAT bit of immorality) is just indicative. Just the tip of the iceberg.

Open your eyes. You are a puppet in your own life.

MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:22

An asset does not always generate an income. When they have, he has declared it.

Very true. But not putting an asset to work to generate an income when it could is a strange choice. It's something the wealthy do for tax avoidance reasons etc. But you (plural) are claiming state income top-ups after making that choice.

It smells bad.

MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:23

I couldn't sleep if this was going on in my marriage and I didn't know the ins and outs.

feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:26

Agree with the paying me a wage bit. He would have refused to do it differently and when it first started I was much more naive.

Re. tax credits I genuinely don't understand what you are saying. Why would owning some assets that are unusable, mean that
he is wrongly claiming?

OP posts:
feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:29

I haven't made any choice re. those properties. You will have to believe me when I say that he genuinely isn't leaving them empty in order to claim. He hasn't had the money to finish them off.

OP posts:
feelinganxious192 · 23/06/2015 06:31

We are really not wealthy.

OP posts:
hesterton · 23/06/2015 06:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:35

Why does he own all this property if none of it is commercially exploitable?

What's the point?

If most of them are "unusable" then they are valueless and it's odd that you are so concerned about joint ownership.

If one is temporarily unrentable (for example) then there must surely still be a plan for it. It is bizarre to leave a property sitting year after year with no development, no income generated, no activity at all. Is that what you say is happening?

And to go back to something upthread, why would anyone let out a house 'intermittently'?

Is he just the world's unluckiest man or is there a pattern?

I don't believe any of that, but I would wonder if one or more is being used for something you can't be allowed to know about. None of this sounds right.

TBH I think you're so used to being naive you can't quite stop.

MaggieJoyBlunt · 23/06/2015 06:41

I haven't made any choice re. those properties. You will have to believe me when I say that he genuinely isn't leaving them empty in order to claim. He hasn't had the money to finish them off.

Well then he's truly appalling at what he does. Why not rationalize the portfolio? Sell off some part-complete to fund the work on the others? (Not your choice by the sounds of things, I know). Instead of claiming tax credits whilst sitting on multiple assets?

Dodgy or clueless. It's not good. You need to look the whole thing square in the face though.

DownTownAbbey · 23/06/2015 07:00

He took a younger woman whom he could financially dominate because he doesn't want to share. It's taken you years to get this het up about it so he chose well.

I agree with a lot that has already been posted - especially the bits about get copies of all paperwork you can get your hands on and hide it - maybe at your sister's flat. Even if you're prepared to go along with this marriage for a few more years get your exit strategy ready.

He's financially abusive and maybe the new law that's coming in will help you?

Is he having an affair? If he's so unaffectionate and unforthcoming he may be happy to keep you (his docile brood mare) in the ('grateful for a roof in return for raising his kids') picture because he thinks he's got nothing to lose. I'm not saying he is having an affair, but would that make any difference to you?

I was in a similar situation with my exh. He was self employed and paid all the bills whilst I had to give up work to look after our disabled child. He was very vague about how much money 'we' had because he was the one earning it. He still had to declare everything in court but dragged the divorce out for 3 years because he didn't want me to know about his finances.

I understand about the status quo - I was with my ex for 20 years and my entire life was wrapped up with him. 3 years after he left I am happier than I have ever been, stronger, financially independant and can't believe I was ever frightened of what would happen to me and my DS without his 'support'.

Good luck!

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